Beta Key Giveaway Week 3: Winners have been selected!

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  1. #21
    So Slice and Dice is better than Roll the Bones now? And Killing Spree is better than Alacrity?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Crunge View Post
    So Slice and Dice is better than Roll the Bones now? And Killing Spree is better than Alacrity?
    Maybe you're looking at the assassination one?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rougle View Post
    Blizzard has already said. that if one spec is the strongest.
    They will keep that one as the strongest. in order to not screw over the players that spent all the artifact knowledge in said spec.
    So we have nothing to worry about.

    They will most likely buff the other specs. so that they get on an even playing field.
    You do realize that outlaw is so far ahead of the other two specs (and every other spec in the game) that is will have to be nerfed. it is the strongest now because the numbers are still being tuned since they have worked to improve the rng. There is no way outlaw keeps the damage numbers it has now or every rogue who is serious about raiding will just be outlaw.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonjooce View Post
    Why are the sims done using the worst possible trinkets for sub / ass, but ones that are actually decent for outlaw?
    Using the vendetta boots is sub-optimal without using vendetta relics obtained from mythic+dungeons, you can get vendetta down to a 40-44 second cooldown, yet you've used rupture relics. With vendetta refilling energy and having a 40-43second which is inline with Kingsbane cooldown practically, making mastery more viable as kingsbane scales from mastery, and then with mastery / vers being the top 2 secondarys with these relics and the vendetta legendary.

    These sim's are actually terrible and are making assass / sub look alot worse than they actually are.

    And the fact that the majority of people who can't use common sense, and look at items and see they're good / bad without using the internet, will read this and believe it regardless of inaccuracy.
    Hence the disclaimer.
    Feel free to contribute instead

    It's really hard to manage everything and add on top of that Blizzard Roll the Hotfix.

    I might have a look, but changing trinkets won't change everything.

    About Assassination, I'll pass it to Skasch.
    Rogue SimC Maintainer since 6.2.
    As a Rogue, the best thread on MMO-C to talk about Legion SimC is this one, it will be a pleasure for me to discuss with you there.
    I'm also the maker of AethysRotation, an addon to help you doing an optimized rotation (especially for Rogues).
    Finally, you can retrieve a lot of Rogues simulations results on our Resources Website.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethys256 View Post
    Hence the disclaimer.
    Feel free to contribute instead

    It's really hard to manage everything and add on top of that Blizzard Roll the Hotfix.

    I might have a look, but changing trinkets won't change everything.

    About Assassination, I'll pass it to Skasch.
    Myythic+ dungeons that are also 880ilvl that are far superior to the ones you have selected, e.g.
    Chaos talisman, gives 2k agility and 1k haste,
    Chronoshard which has a 9k haste proc,
    Terrorbound Nexus which shoots out a shockwave in 4 directions that deals 150k damage to all enemys it hits and the shockwaves return to you dealing the damage again,
    Momento of Angerboda (880ilvl version is 3900~ secondary) can proc crit, mastery or haste, and you can have all 3 active at once. There's quite a few more as well, which are more viable in certain situations.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltcreek View Post
    You do realize that outlaw is so far ahead of the other two specs (and every other spec in the game) that is will have to be nerfed. it is the strongest now because the numbers are still being tuned since they have worked to improve the rng. There is no way outlaw keeps the damage numbers it has now or every rogue who is serious about raiding will just be outlaw.
    There is some logic to your argument. If Outlaw is ridiculously ahead of every other dps spec, there probably will be a nerf inc, as what happened to Assassination. But just because it's clearly the best rogue spec doesn't mean it'll get a re-tuning. Look at HFC as an example. No rogue serious about raiding went Assassination. You went Sub unless you had to spec combat because you had more than 1 target to damage.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Blokes View Post
    There is some logic to your argument. If Outlaw is ridiculously ahead of every other dps spec, there probably will be a nerf inc, as what happened to Assassination. But just because it's clearly the best rogue spec doesn't mean it'll get a re-tuning. Look at HFC as an example. No rogue serious about raiding went Assassination. You went Sub unless you had to spec combat because you had more than 1 target to damage.
    The only problem with this is that outlaw is 'best' for single, cleave and aoe, and they wont have 1 spec being the best for every situation, thats why its likely to recieve nerfs

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Blokes View Post
    There is some logic to your argument. If Outlaw is ridiculously ahead of every other dps spec, there probably will be a nerf inc, as what happened to Assassination. But just because it's clearly the best rogue spec doesn't mean it'll get a re-tuning. Look at HFC as an example. No rogue serious about raiding went Assassination. You went Sub unless you had to spec combat because you had more than 1 target to damage.
    You have to remember that they want to balance all 3 specs so people do not feel like they waste AP on a spec that cannot compete. Right now outlaw is the best at everything and it is a large margin. Outlaw will see nerfs, it is just a matter of time.

  9. #29
    I can't help but think that simulations with nighthold gear will look rather different, given how meh sub's set boni and gain from the CDR trinket are and how massive they are for assassin, Nighthold also has Vendetta Relics for every slot. A mastery heavy Agonizing Poison build with ~40 second CD Vendetta might be really strong and play rather fast-paced, thanks to the 3rd venomous wounds from 2-piece mutilates. I am ready for the 2mil+ envenoms, DfA might actually become relevant at that point.

    I fear that we might get baited into pushing sub when in reality, the only scenario it's better is during EN Mythic farm and then maybe in T20 but there's no point in trying to predict that far ahead.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Blokes View Post
    There is some logic to your argument. If Outlaw is ridiculously ahead of every other dps spec, there probably will be a nerf inc, as what happened to Assassination. But just because it's clearly the best rogue spec doesn't mean it'll get a re-tuning. Look at HFC as an example. No rogue serious about raiding went Assassination. You went Sub unless you had to spec combat because you had more than 1 target to damage.
    this is true only overgearing the encounter. in progression the spec were all usable, even then first kill of archimonde was with assa :|

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonjooce View Post
    The only problem with this is that outlaw is 'best' for single, cleave and aoe, and they wont have 1 spec being the best for every situation, thats why its likely to recieve nerfs
    That's not necessarily true. I know they are claiming every spec will be "viable" but they have a different definition than the raiding community. I also doubt that they use tools like WCL or simcraft to determine what they buff/nerf. They probably try to make sure every spec is "viable" enough to do solo content and dungeon not that every spec is equel. We can also look at other classes and see that one spec being superior in every situation is not an odd occurrence.

    Unholy,arcane(or fire when we look at it now.) MM hunter was also superior in every situation. Why would rogues be any different? They also just nerfed outlaw with the recent hotfix. Im going to guess we won't see any major nerfs to it again but probably buffs to sin or sub. Of course i could be wrong and they just decide to nerf it into the ground soon. But anyway all im saying is that one spec being superior in every situation is not out of the realm of possibility.

  12. #32
    I am pretty sure that we'll see nerfs to the RT artifact trait. It's just way too much power for a minor trait.

  13. #33
    1 is far left talent 3 far right if 0 no dps talents row. 1target 2target etc.

  14. #34
    everybody speack about otlaw nerf ..bla bla ...2 day from legion and outlaw it's still the best on every situation .

    Despite all sims ill roll sin ....maybe something change on the way

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonjooce View Post
    Myythic+ dungeons that are also 880ilvl that are far superior to the ones you have selected, e.g.
    Chaos talisman, gives 2k agility and 1k haste,
    Chronoshard which has a 9k haste proc,
    Terrorbound Nexus which shoots out a shockwave in 4 directions that deals 150k damage to all enemys it hits and the shockwaves return to you dealing the damage again,
    Momento of Angerboda (880ilvl version is 3900~ secondary) can proc crit, mastery or haste, and you can have all 3 active at once. There's quite a few more as well, which are more viable in certain situations.
    Did you see that I'm using Default SimC profiles and those do have rules to make comparison across each class "possible" ?
    So taking titanforged gear isn't an option.

    You should check the rules here :

    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...Raid_T19P.simc
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...Raid_T19H.simc
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...Raid_T19M.simc

    Considering those, the trinkets are fine.

    If you want to make "BiS Setup Sims", feel free to, but that's not the intent here.
    It's mainly to know how good can be each Legs, how irrelevant races differences are, what kind of talents are good and when, what are the scenarios that makes some spec good, how a spec is basically "scaling" with the gear.
    Last edited by Aethys256; 2016-08-29 at 06:59 AM.
    Rogue SimC Maintainer since 6.2.
    As a Rogue, the best thread on MMO-C to talk about Legion SimC is this one, it will be a pleasure for me to discuss with you there.
    I'm also the maker of AethysRotation, an addon to help you doing an optimized rotation (especially for Rogues).
    Finally, you can retrieve a lot of Rogues simulations results on our Resources Website.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonjooce View Post
    Why are the sims done using the worst possible trinkets for sub / ass, but ones that are actually decent for outlaw?
    Using the vendetta boots is sub-optimal without using vendetta relics obtained from mythic+dungeons, you can get vendetta down to a 40-44 second cooldown, yet you've used rupture relics. With vendetta refilling energy and having a 40-43second which is inline with Kingsbane cooldown practically, making mastery more viable as kingsbane scales from mastery, and then with mastery / vers being the top 2 secondarys with these relics and the vendetta legendary.

    These sim's are actually terrible and are making assass / sub look alot worse than they actually are.

    And the fact that the majority of people who can't use common sense, and look at items and see they're good / bad without using the internet, will read this and believe it regardless of inaccuracy.
    Kingsbane does not scale with Mastery -> http://www.wowhead.com/spell=192759/kingsbane
    I asked this on the Theorycrafting-Thread long time ago but didn't get an answer if this is intended or not. (http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...ge=33#post-647)

    Using Vendetta relics from Mythic+ and Levantus will make the boots slightly more valuable, but it is nothing major that would change the way we look at those current numbers.

  17. #37
    Stickied. Sorry for the delay.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonjooce View Post
    These sim's are actually terrible and are making assass / sub look alot worse than they actually are.

    And the fact that the majority of people who can't use common sense, and look at items and see they're good / bad without using the internet, will read this and believe it regardless of inaccuracy.
    I don't think the sims are "terrible" but I think legion is going to be the most difficult time in the game to properly sim things. You have artifact points, relics and talents, all of which can sway your stat priority.

    I do think that assass is probably a little under-represented and outlaw maybe a little over-represented. Either way I'm sure there will be a number of tweaks and changes to all three specs before raids go live.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltcreek View Post
    You do realize that outlaw is so far ahead of the other two specs (and every other spec in the game) that is will have to be nerfed. it is the strongest now because the numbers are still being tuned since they have worked to improve the rng. There is no way outlaw keeps the damage numbers it has now or every rogue who is serious about raiding will just be outlaw.
    It is insanely far ahead if you do it to the max. meaning all 6 buffs on RTB every single time, is it not?
    Because you cant tune it down based on insane RNG that will almost never happend.

    or is even 2 buffs RTB that far ahead of other specs?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rougle View Post
    It is insanely far ahead if you do it to the max. meaning all 6 buffs on RTB every single time, is it not?
    Because you cant tune it down based on insane RNG that will almost never happend.

    or is even 2 buffs RTB that far ahead of other specs?
    Even 2/3 is that far ahead.

    And don't discount 6 procs. I've gotten two 6 procs in a single pull more than once.

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