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  1. #41
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    i dont know why did suprices you, vanilla pve was kings in pvp. tbc u needed armor pen from BT, wrath u neeed trinkets. id say it just goes back to how its suppose to be, those who do more content gets rewarded.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Well...not really. Not when you've seen the same boss/adds/mechanics for the 4th or 18th or 33rd time, you get it figured out unless your IQ and hand-to-eye coordination is that of a small soap dish. Every PvE encounter is either a gear check or a stupid check, or some combo of them. PvE is very predictable.

    OTOH, every time you queue a PvP instance you face a different map, different comp and/or players, and potential strategy. PvP is often unpredictable and has nearly endless variables.

    This is WoW Fundamentals 101. Those who don't know it are either total noobs or are full of shit.
    didnt say not to that.
    if i can kill archi mythic and get a mythic calamity edge, i hope i can have a advantage to kill the OP. that 3% are well earned.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shonist View Post
    didnt say not to that.
    if i can kill archi mythic and get a mythic calamity edge, i hope i can have a advantage to kill the OP. that 3% are well earned.
    Well earned? By doing what? A completely unrelated activity? This is so moronic. I bet all the gold on my accounts that if high end pvp ever gave out tier sets/trinkets 3% better than pve, you'd see mad dragonslayers in tears form irl raids for blizzard headquarters.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livevil View Post
    Well earned? By doing what? A completely unrelated activity? This is so moronic. I bet all the gold on my accounts that if high end pvp ever gave out tier sets/trinkets 3% better than pve, you'd see mad dragonslayers in tears form irl raids for blizzard headquarters.
    how can u call getting better gear weapons trinkets unrelated ? this is how the game worked precata. and for once im happy that this do arena log out. is less attractive. and now with artifact beeing so important, those who do more content in this game will be rewarded more again. This is a good change. its makes the world more interactive with more players doing all contents

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Livevil View Post
    Well earned? By doing what? A completely unrelated activity? This is so moronic. I bet all the gold on my accounts that if high end pvp ever gave out tier sets/trinkets 3% better than pve, you'd see mad dragonslayers in tears form irl raids for blizzard headquarters.
    This.

    PVP players in Legion are told to go to the back of the bus.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shonist View Post
    didnt say not to that.
    if i can kill archi mythic and get a mythic calamity edge, i hope i can have a advantage to kill the OP. that 3% are well earned.
    As Livevil and Mafic said, a raid boss isn't related to PvP, no more than winning 2 BGs in MoP was related to PvE'ers on the cloak quest. I had mine done in 3 random BG queues, while a very good raiding guildie took over 25 BGs to get his 2 wins, and only after a few of us grouped with him. I remember it well and the utter dread and hatred that some of our pure raiders had for that part of the quest.

    This gear difference and PvP drops in raids, and RNG for PvP, is simply another ruse by Blizz to force more grind/time in game (= $$). By creating 'Haves and Have Nots' in PvP gearing, even if relatively small, they are creating a power imbalance and artificial segregation that puts the lie to everything Blizz claimed they were doing for Legion PvP.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolt View Post
    how can u call getting better gear weapons trinkets unrelated ? this is how the game worked precata. and for once im happy that this do arena log out. is less attractive. and now with artifact beeing so important, those who do more content in this game will be rewarded more again. This is a good change. its makes the world more interactive with more players doing all contents
    Unrelated activity. It has been said many times before. You should never get better gear for pvp by doing pve and vice versa. Of course the last one almost never happens and when it happens it gets nerfed to the ground instantly. Do you know why pvp weapons in the past required 7250 conquest earned in the season? Because, at the start when they did not require it, dragonslayers started shedding massive tears because the weapons were too good to pass and felt compelled to pvp.

    As you can see, "doing all contents" means pvp players doing pve because when the reverse is in the slightest way optimal, it gets nerfed to the ground. It's easily the best description of a double standard in this game. Now by reading this post, the average pve turdface will probably realize that he's been getting pampered by blizzard all these years and will start coming up with the "ermahgerd pvp is mini game lolz" argument in the next page or so.
    Last edited by Livevil; 2016-09-02 at 07:06 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livevil View Post
    Unrelated activity. It has been said many times before. You should never get better gear for pvp by doing pve and vice versa. Of course the last one almost never happens and when it happens it gets nerfed to the ground instantly. Do you know why pvp weapons in the past required 7250 conquest earned in the season? Because, at the start when they did not require it, dragonslayers started shedding massive tears because the weapons were too good to pass and felt compelled to pvp.

    As you can see, "doing all contents" means pvp players doing pve because when the reverse is in the slightest way optimal, it gets nerfed to the ground. It's easily the best description of a double standard in this game. Now by reading this post, the average pve turdface will probably realize that he's been getting pampered by blizzard all these years and will start coming up with the "ermahgerd pvp is mini game lolz" argument in the next page or so.
    yeah this why seperate gear have been bad imo. The same thing have happend trough out wow. Vanilla pve:ers aimed for r14 gear. Tbc u wanted pvp aswell because the items was good in pve also.

    But i guess we have to wait and see how this plans out but im feeling hopeful

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Toolt View Post
    yeah this why seperate gear have been bad imo. The same thing have happend trough out wow. Vanilla pve:ers aimed for r14 gear. Tbc u wanted pvp aswell because the items was good in pve also.

    But i guess we have to wait and see how this plans out but im feeling hopeful
    And even in wrath pvp gear was almost as good as heroic ICC gear. In general its a lot easier to gear in Pvp rather then pve. There was 0 skill requirement in Wod/Mop for pvp gearing, if you spend enough time in bgs and later 2s you would get the gear no matter what.

    So its either to put massive rating requirements on gear to make the effort/skill needed similar or to make pvp gear inferior to pve gear all around due to how easy it is to get.

  10. #50
    since we don't have upgraded pvp weapons to worry about anymore, put a rating requirement on pvp upgraded gear similar to that of heroic-> mythic or w.e the fuck the dungeon difficulties are now.

    give everybody the same gear+artifact, let the skilled players outplay their way to the proper ranks they should be and when the MMR balances out, let people fight and earn their way to 1800 upgrades. everybody wins. mythic raiders have same ilvl as gladiators, non mythic raiders have same ilvl as non gladiators.

    you're slightly better than average raider and have a couple mythic kills? well that guy is slightly better than average pvp'er and has a couple of upgraded items due to being 2k.

    win fucking win situation right?

    honestly besides the most early days of wow pvp, the only issue we've had is with top tier raid weapons and trinkets. we no longer have to worry about the weapons, pretty sure they can figure out a way to avoid DFO/Deathbringer'sWill from happening again and we're all set.
    Last edited by Stingray0011; 2016-09-03 at 03:39 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boocifer View Post
    honestly besides the most early days of wow pvp, the only issue we've had is with top tier raid weapons and trinkets. we no longer have to worry about the weapons, pretty sure they can figure out a way to avoid DFO/Deathbringer'sWill from happening again and we're all set.
    You can't use trinkets in pvp anymore so that is fixed. trinkets are there as rest of items for il. and a new dinged 110 vs a full perfect mythic il, is only 10%. so i dont understand all the fuzz tbh

  12. #52
    This is a real issue for only 2300+ people. Everything is negligible because if you are losing below 2200-2300 its not because of 3% stats.

    When you hit 2300/2400 this starts to matter when people are reaching skillcaps on their classes. I feel for the players at the top of the brackets and hope theres something done to remove this gap for top tier players.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by shuubi View Post
    That is flawed reasoning.

    Effort in pve should pay off in pve, but not vice versa

    Effort in pvp should pay off in pvp, but not vice versa.

    That is how it worked in Wod and I don't see why this had to change again.
    Some like to do both.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by plato13 View Post
    Its pointless to argue with tryhard pvp player. Sad how much of an RPG aspect got lost in wow. Gearprogression is basicly the only thing you have left. MMORPGs never were about competetive PVP with equal gear. It is competetive in terms of everyone has the same chances on getting the gear. dont want to play pve? fine but its your loss. its not like i am not playing pvp but when it comes to me all gear should come from pve and non from pvp. wow devolving makes me sick. just look at prestige stuff. go play the game where this comes from. and leave mmos to the ppl who rly play mmos for what they are: lore, progressin, imersion and what else comes from RPGs. not for some instanced "pvp".
    100% agree

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Livevil View Post
    Well earned? By doing what? A completely unrelated activity? This is so moronic. I bet all the gold on my accounts that if high end pvp ever gave out tier sets/trinkets 3% better than pve, you'd see mad dragonslayers in tears form irl raids for blizzard headquarters.
    true as well

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    The "omg we lost this only because of them having all the luck while i had no luck because i didn't get 6 crits in a row, if i had these extra 3% stats i would definitely beat this pve scrub who got away only because he has 3% more stats than me!" sense is strong in this one
    Why are you speaking in third-person? You replied to me. Sure it might not happen ALL the time, but it's the same concept as Mythic raiding. Min maxing will always be a thing as long as there are people who want to be the best. When you're 3% short of a kill on say Heroic Archimonde, you are going to think to yourself, "Wow, if we had 3% extra on our stats, we might have downed it." Same. Exact. Concept.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Max PvP vs max PvE is, what, 3% more powerful? If you are truely a good pvper, you will overcome that 3% with your leet skillz, amirite?
    that is not the point.

    The point is if you do only/exclusively pvp content, you should have the edge both skill AND gearwise on those who do not. somebody who spends 20+ hours a week fighting a dragon in a dungeon should not be stronger than somebody who spends the same time learning the bg. irrespective of skill.

    if the answer to 'what's the best gear in pvp' is anything other than 'pvp gear.' there is a problem

    The best gear for pve.. is PVE. the best gear for pvp.. is PVE.

    So, the pve raider can step into my world and be better equipped to do so (nothing to do with skill. just the raw stats.) but I could not step into his and start rocking leaderboards.

    Obviously there is tournament stuff, but the force majore do not play on those.

    at the end of the day think of it like this.

    Player A is an arena legend. he spends his time doing 100 arenas per week. winning most! and does 10-20 RBG's... he is great in terms of skill.

    Player B is a PVE hero. awesome at what he does. clears mythic content like its nothing. challengemodes? forget about it. geared in all the latest shinies.

    Now, when player A and player B fight. considering the considerable effort A has put into that aspect of the game, why should B have ANY advantage despite not setting foot in instanced pvp? Yes, the argument that the skilled player A will likely win due to the skill is 100% correct, but that doesn't take away from the initial argument.

    As it stands for somebody who has very little interest in PVE. my best route for pvp appears to be, grind out my talents. then PVE... in order to pvp better.

    Also, the idiots quibbling about 1%-5% or whatever.. it's an mmo. people will spend hours to get a magical imbuement of haste or something that grants +1% haste. if it improves their char and will give them a perceived 'edge' they will do it.
    Last edited by Raldazzar; 2016-09-03 at 07:41 AM.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    that is not the point.

    The point is if you do only/exclusively pvp content, you should have the edge both skill AND gearwise on those who do not. somebody who spends 20+ hours a week fighting a dragon in a dungeon should not be stronger than somebody who spends the same time learning the bg. irrespective of skill.

    if the answer to 'what's the best gear in pvp' is anything other than 'pvp gear.' there is a problem

    The best gear for pve.. is PVE. the best gear for pvp.. is PVE.

    So, the pve raider can step into my world and be better equipped to do so (nothing to do with skill. just the raw stats.) but I could not step into his and start rocking leaderboards.

    Obviously there is tournament stuff, but the force majore do not play on those.

    at the end of the day think of it like this.

    Player A is an arena legend. he spends his time doing 100 arenas per week. winning most! and does 10-20 RBG's... he is great in terms of skill.

    Player B is a PVE hero. awesome at what he does. clears mythic content like its nothing. challengemodes? forget about it. geared in all the latest shinies.

    Now, when player A and player B fight. considering the considerable effort A has put into that aspect of the game, why should B have ANY advantage despite not setting foot in instanced pvp? Yes, the argument that the skilled player A will likely win due to the skill is 100% correct, but that doesn't take away from the initial argument.

    As it stands for somebody who has very little interest in PVE. my best route for pvp appears to be, grind out my talents. then PVE... in order to pvp better.

    Also, the idiots quibbling about 1%-5% or whatever.. it's an mmo. people will spend hours to get a magical imbuement of haste or something that grants +1% haste. if it improves their char and will give them a perceived 'edge' they will do it.
    You are right in everything.

    However I need to point out, that the dragonslayers that will actually set foot in a PVP environment is an extremely low number.
    Similar the PVPers, that will set foot and actually clear Mythic raids is an extremely low number as well.

    Not many people will care for a 3% advantage.

    Realistically the problem affects a small portion of the player base.

    But I repeat, you are right and the problem exists regardless.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    This.

    PVP players in Legion are told to go to the back of the bus.
    No, they're telling you to do rated PvP.

    Everyone whines about how they're making the game "casual" but when they turn back on that by making you have to do rated to get better gear everyone starts whining.

    Alright then.

    I'm sorry for the people getting killed by PvErs that are clearly the worse player but they've got 2% more stats. Wait, that doesn't happen.
    Last edited by Krusza; 2016-09-03 at 09:24 AM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shraug View Post
    Why are you speaking in third-person? You replied to me. Sure it might not happen ALL the time, but it's the same concept as Mythic raiding. Min maxing will always be a thing as long as there are people who want to be the best. When you're 3% short of a kill on say Heroic Archimonde, you are going to think to yourself, "Wow, if we had 3% extra on our stats, we might have downed it." Same. Exact. Concept.
    That happens extremely rarely in mythic, because you either fuck it up, or it goes smoothly. 3% stats sure helps, but insignificantly. 15% DPS because of spec/talent/skill - yes, that's a thing. But 3% stats - nope.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xhisors View Post
    No the majority of people will not notice the 3%. But think of it this way, what if that gap becomes 5%? Now your team is 5% weaker per person. Your team is now 15% in total stats behind the other team. Sure on a per person it may not be much but that adds up over the entire match. It shouldn't exist at all, period. Lots of matches at 2300+ at least for me end up being super close where that 3-5% matters just on living or dying.

    Also you quoted his question.. but I still don't see a response to it.. what if PvP dropped the best PvE gear? Remember the 3 battlegrounds you had to do for the Legendary item? Yeah that was a shitstorm of QQ. I just don't think its right to shaft PvP players like this.
    3% difference comes from:
    a) one team having full set of max ilvl PvP gear at high ranking
    b) other team having full set of max ilvl PvE gear at high ranking

    And it goes back up to "if someone spends time to do both high end PvE and high end PvP they should be rewarded more" argument.

    If PvP would drop best PvE gear (and you make a look like, for example, PvP gloves for ret paladins in wotlk never happened) i wouldn't do PvP, because PvE gives you rewards good enough to continue with your progression
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire View Post
    You wont even notice 3%.
    Yes, yes you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz1096 View Post
    No, they're telling you to do rated PvP.

    Everyone whines about how they're making the game "casual" but when they turn back on that by making you have to do rated to get better gear everyone starts whining.

    Alright then.

    I'm sorry for the people getting killed by PvErs that are clearly the worse player but they've got 2% more stats. Wait, that doesn't happen.
    You're so wrong it hurts. Even the top PvP gear is strictly worse. PvP unlike PvE is also a pyramide scheme. The rating one has to reach to receive the best gear was describe as "gladi rating" which they put as equivalent of mythic. Guess what? Gladi rating is the top 0,5% and it's harder to achieve by a long shot than mythic.

    PvE lacking the pyramide scheme and being against fixed encounters is all around EASIER. You do not face an adversary that cares about winning or losing and you can try over and over again. As long as you succeed ONCE you're being rewarded. Then you come back and do the same over again next week.

    The figures of a few percent is top gear compared to one another. Gear that is way harder to achieve through PvP and will be less accessible. Gear that for some reason is still worse in PvP than it's PvE equivalent. While decent PvE gear takes a massive dump on most other PvP gear.

    People going "it's just a few percent" are completely and utterly delusional. Even the weapon alone makes a tremendous difference to the point where 2.2 used to be a hard wall most teams ran into. Because they faced off against people who had the weapon while they didn't. It means they had to fight an uphill battle all throughout these matches and win over and over again to eventually achieve the weapon or give up frustrated when they missed a killing blow by a tiny margin.

    Guess what happened when these people achieved their weapon rating even once? The wall fell apart and where prior they were stuck right below 2.2k they suddenly gained quite a bit of rating because even a small difference does matter a lot. There's a reason even most talents and abilities only give a few percent in boost.
    Last edited by mmoc5e6c40f22c; 2016-09-03 at 11:29 AM.

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