Can a good Lock with past Heroic (PreWoD)+ Mythic experience comment on DPS sitch-PVE

[tithian]

A lot of people, regardless of which class they are complaining about, will complain to no end unless their class is #1 in dps
I'm personally doing very well in my dungeon groups. I am not top dps in trash kills all the time, but on every single boss kill I am top dps. Trash deeps mean jack shit except for those people who like to touch themselves publicly.

You are being a burden on the group and a liability for Mythic+ then, since trash is 90% of what you'll be killing in dungeons and are what will actually be wiping you most of the times in higher difficulties. The fact that you think that trash dps mean jack shit kinda shows how clueless you are about the content you are doing.

The problem is, other classes have superior boss-killing potential AND burstier AoE DPS with the same spec and talent configuration, which is why warlocks are denied entry to Mythics currently. Why take an AoE specced Destro lock, when a BM hunter melts trash packs AND is #1 or #2 on ST?

[SpikeySquad]

At iLevel 805, I currently run dual spec Destruction / Affliction. Both artifact weapons have 2 +30 ilvl gems and 13 traits unlocked. I use a balanced destruction build for Dungeoning and while I don't top the meters anymore, I am competitive. Both on trash and ST. This might change when I plunge into Heroic, but we'll see :-)

As Destro my DPS actually significantly increased when I went from normals to heroics as the mobs live much longer. Some of the the front loaded classes look less impressive as well (and/or I have just been grouping with weaker players).

[Gaidax]

Well... this was worth a good laugh... Not only are you low-key bragging about being W522 (you weren't even top 50 for the EN EU region), you're running full consumables and only doing mediocre DPS...

You just barge in, put a bunch of hate and nothing to back it up with and roll out. Yes I am terribly sorry we're only W522, should I write an apology letter for you?

Since I am so bad, if someone playing warlock on your glorious level would play instead, I am sure he would also do quite a bit more as well.


Should I even care about your "feedback"? You provided nothing but a bunch of hate.

I wish to remind you and the likes of you that all I am trying to say that remarks such as "warlocks not viable for dungeons" and are "bottom of the barrel, getting kicked from groups" are not true and you can indeed pull your weight in a good manner. Nothing more than that - I am not claiming we are a frikkin' WW monk, Havoc DH or even BM Hunter who can pop bloody CDs on a trashpack and evaporate it faster than 80% of the other damage dealer specs in existence. Is that a warlock problem? Don't think so - more like some things are more out of hand than they should be.

So get a grip, I am not claiming warlocks are bloody S-tier gods shattering the meters, hope that helps to calm your rage.


Also "full consumables", lel - I bet those 250 INT from Draenor flask and 225 haste from cheap food you can make at 0 skill level totally skewed the whole perception of reality.

- - - Updated - - -

Since you decided to add something useful then:

Sure, I can run full consumables and post a video/screen of me landing 400k+ dps on a st Mythic boss fight but what's the point... It says nothing about the major issues that are going to plague the class in raid content... It doesn't show how RNG fluctuations can give you a +/- 40k spread with the Destro rotation. It doesn't show how ineffective long-cast cleave is when priority adds are killed in less than 3 GCDs by talented players with faster swap/burst capacity. It doesn't show how ridiculous it is to be RNG shard-starved for long durations. It doesn't show how horrifically front-loaded Destro DPS is with talents like LoF and DRx3 or mechanics like shard pooling and that it has a MASSIVE fall-off a few minutes into a fight (hence how Warlock DPS is horrifically inflated on Mythic Dungeon bosses--they don't live long). It doesn't show how adds may spawn off-set of the Cataclysm timer or be permanently spread out and therefore completely negate Destro AoE... And that is to say nothing of the sorry state of Affliction and Demonology which are currently entirely non-competitive...

Yes, because only warlocks apparently have RNG to deal with (as if crit and procs do not exist for majority of playerbase), have front-loaded burst cooldowns, pooling which results in fall-off a few minutes into the fight.

It's not like bloody Fire Mage pops Combustion and Rune of Power and dumps all his shit and artifact power into this burst parade, neither BM Hunter's Bestial Wrath and Stampede exist, right? Everyone's damage on dungeon bosses is inflated. You claim as if compressing cooldowns for burst and then falling off until shit comes back is some sort of unique Warlock thing? Bloody all DPS specs do that.

Adds spawning and not syncing with your AoE cooldowns is also a totally Warlock thing right? Or spreading around and preventing most of the ground targeted AoE or PBAoE? That's like completely something ONLY Warlocks deal with in this game, right?

And adds evaporating before people can roll their add killing shit in is ALSO not a warlock-only issue (although damn Destruction with 100% Shadowburn and shard refund is definitely one of the better equipped specs to deal with this, so no idea how you complain about THAT).

Fuck, the existence of Wreck Havoc and Shadowburn makes warlocks frikkin' A-tier at the above already, yet you state as if this is some issue, really?

Every last thing you stated is NOT challenges unique to warlocks and warlocks are not even bloody THAT bad at it compared to some, so stop please - you simply make yourself look silly.


Yes, if encounter lasts 8 minutes, features skittish low HP adds loosely running around spawning at inconvenient periods of time, while crit/proc RNG is playing cruel games with the raid DDs - then EVERYONE will have a bloody problem and not only Warlocks. Everyone will drop off after that Bloodlust CDs cumdump and everyone will bloody QQ because adds frikkin' run around and you can not AoE them effectively and all your bloody WWs and Havocs will cry murder because they can't dump their Strike of Facerolllord or Fury of the Illidari Eye Beam at a clump. Neither hunters or mages will be bloody happy with adds being roflstomped in 2 GCDs before their frikkin' spells or shots travel time even reach them.

Don't frikkin' make drama about what EVERYONE deals with. I think you need a good dose of reality check.


At the very bloody best you can claim that some S-tier specs good at everything exist and that some warlock specs - Demo and Aff may use some improvements with ramp-up and switching (though arguably Demo can implode all bloody imps at prio target for pretty massive burst) and a small bump to Destruction Mastery would be nice in order to at least prevent critical failure cases that has everyone's panties in a twist, as well as moving one AoE talent to be baseline because it is a bit overspecialized now with all the AoE at expense of ST talents (Cata baseline would be brilliant).

[Deleted]

There you go - I am ilvl 846, using full AoE/Cleave build - Shadowburn/Cata/F&B/Sac/Havoc


Group - guild group, 13/13M World 522 playing strictly 6 hours per week (the "casuals"), ilvls 845-848, Fire Mage, BM/MM Hunter.

[B]Arcway/Court of Stars just now:

As you can see I am doing just fine, everyone is equally geared and all are 13/13M and play their mains.


I even made a video of both runs, so you can see more - things like trash and such. I will post it once it's up. I hope this can show you that good warlock players are, in fact, doing ok and compete just fine.

How much DPS can you do if you spec only for single target? I don't know if it's the training dummy at the Order Hall but I can barely do 115k if I spec for pure single target at ilvl 844 (Backdraft, Eradication etc).

[Deleted]

Well... this was worth a good laugh... Not only are you low-key bragging about being W522 (you weren't even top 50 for the EN EU region), you're running full consumables and only doing mediocre DPS...

Your "13/13M . . . main" Hunter does comparable DPS to my ilvl810 BM buddy with no 3rd relic slot unlocked... so ya... if you're pitting your Warlock against him, it's going to look good... I mean, sure, I'm comparing your friend to a Hunter who parses 99th %ile or R1 consistently and that might seem unfair but... ya... the point still stands.

Sure, I can run full consumables and post a video/screen of me landing 400k+ dps on a st Mythic boss fight but what's the point... It says nothing about the major issues that are going to plague the class in raid content... It doesn't show how RNG fluctuations can give you a +/- 40k spread with the Destro rotation. It doesn't show how ineffective long-cast cleave is when priority adds are killed in less than 3 GCDs by talented players with faster swap/burst capacity. It doesn't show how ridiculous it is to be RNG shard-starved for long durations. It doesn't show how horrifically front-loaded Destro DPS is with talents like LoF and DRx3 or mechanics like shard pooling and that it has a MASSIVE fall-off a few minutes into a fight (hence how Warlock DPS is horrifically inflated on Mythic Dungeon bosses--they don't live long). It doesn't show how adds may spawn off-set of the Cataclysm timer or be permanently spread out and therefore completely negate Destro AoE... And that is to say nothing of the sorry state of Affliction and Demonology which are currently entirely non-competitive...

At this point I honestly can't determine if you're trolling or just so horrifically misinformed about the situation that you think you are providing good information...

You should think again about who is a good laugh here. You and the likes of you are such full of BS. Why dont you post a mythic run with your rank1 world group and see you do 400k dps single target dps with consumables and your 810 hunter buddy with 2 relic slots to see about that performance?

Instead of insulting personaly someone who actually only has been helpfull in these forums why dont you give us a good laugh?

[Finnigast]

Well... this was worth a good laugh... Not only are you low-key bragging about being W522 (you weren't even top 50 for the EN EU region), you're running full consumables and only doing mediocre DPS...

Your "13/13M . . . main" Hunter does comparable DPS to my ilvl810 BM buddy with no 3rd relic slot unlocked... so ya... if you're pitting your Warlock against him, it's going to look good... I mean, sure, I'm comparing your friend to a Hunter who parses 99th %ile or R1 consistently and that might seem unfair but... ya... the point still stands.

Not to jump in here, but what point "stands" exactly? Your way of pointing out that Locks are "bad" is to compare his performance against what is, according to you, one of the best players of one of the currently most OP dps specs? Yes, we need some work. Yes, we we aren't going to top the meters against the current top 3 dps specs. But using the .001% of the population as a bar for comparison isn't doing anyone any favors. You could compare any other dps to your buddy and make the same claim you are making about Warlocks.

[Soulzar]

Well... this was worth a good laugh... Not only are you low-key bragging about being W522 (you weren't even top 50 for the EN EU region), you're running full consumables and only doing mediocre DPS...

you can always tell the people who were raised by the internet.

[urdasergiu]

My Mythic Court of Stars run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfqgnpofzZ0 we are all 840 +.

[Deleted]

Well... this was worth a good laugh... Not only are you low-key bragging about being W522 (you weren't even top 50 for the EN EU region), you're running full consumables and only doing mediocre DPS...

Your "13/13M . . . main" Hunter does comparable DPS to my ilvl810 BM buddy with no 3rd relic slot unlocked... so ya... if you're pitting your Warlock against him, it's going to look good... I mean, sure, I'm comparing your friend to a Hunter who parses 99th %ile or R1 consistently and that might seem unfair but... ya... the point still stands.

Sure, I can run full consumables and post a video/screen of me landing 400k+ dps on a st Mythic boss fight but what's the point... It says nothing about the major issues that are going to plague the class in raid content... It doesn't show how RNG fluctuations can give you a +/- 40k spread with the Destro rotation. It doesn't show how ineffective long-cast cleave is when priority adds are killed in less than 3 GCDs by talented players with faster swap/burst capacity. It doesn't show how ridiculous it is to be RNG shard-starved for long durations. It doesn't show how horrifically front-loaded Destro DPS is with talents like LoF and DRx3 or mechanics like shard pooling and that it has a MASSIVE fall-off a few minutes into a fight (hence how Warlock DPS is horrifically inflated on Mythic Dungeon bosses--they don't live long). It doesn't show how adds may spawn off-set of the Cataclysm timer or be permanently spread out and therefore completely negate Destro AoE... And that is to say nothing of the sorry state of Affliction and Demonology which are currently entirely non-competitive...

At this point I honestly can't determine if you're trolling or just so horrifically misinformed about the situation that you think you are providing good information...

If you think that adds that die "within 3 gcds" are a problem then youre obviously missing the point. Yes some classes can go balls-to-the-walls crazy on adds instantly without rampup, but if you think casting havoc is a high rampup (..and a casttime for a spell?) then you, sir, should NOT go demonology.

Also the first thing my healer said when I joined the group was "thank god its a warlock!" because were pretty much immortal, and we started mythics on 810.

On 815 or so I ran violet hold and got blood queen. Shes a pure dpscheck and we killed her perfectly within time. The content is pretty easy atm and even as demo Im doing just fine in singletarget and very nicely aoe.

[Turturin the Warlock]

If you think that adds that die "within 3 gcds" are a problem then youre obviously missing the point. Yes some classes can go balls-to-the-walls crazy on adds instantly without rampup, but if you think casting havoc is a high rampup (..and a casttime for a spell?) then you, sir, should NOT go demonology.

Also the first thing my healer said when I joined the group was "thank god its a warlock!" because were pretty much immortal, and we started mythics on 810.

On 815 or so I ran violet hold and got blood queen. Shes a pure dpscheck and we killed her perfectly within time. The content is pretty easy atm and even as demo Im doing just fine in singletarget and very nicely aoe.

I'm not wading into the dps argument anymore. Frankly it's a lot of annoying shouting at this point. There's also all sorts of reasons that the dps conversation should be separated when we talk about dungeons vs raids.

What I will tell you though is that the idea of immortal survivability ends pretty quickly. Sure in heroic or mythic0 now you can pretty much ignore a lot of stuff, but the higher you go, the less that's true. For example mythic +10 Helya, when tyrannical is involved nearly every one of her abilities one shots. Her breath does like 1mm every .5 secs. So yeah, right now our tankiness is valuable, but as you push content it's quickly "outscaled" by mobility.

At that point a BM hunter and mage doing nearly full dps on the move is just miles better than a sac+UR combo that won't save you anyway if you get hit.

I'm not in the warlocks suck camp, but we're not designed as well or with the single build versatility that our pure ranged counterparts are, and I view that as something that could use adjustment.

[Deleted]

I am just returning to the game after being absent for all of WoD aside from leveling to 100. Prior to that I was a Heroic raider clearing content while current and I did very well in terms of performance.

I have always mained a Warlock and coming back this time I went to look up a few things about the ideal spec, rotation etc and see a ton of complaints and I ended up getting pretty disheartened about leveling my Lock.

Naturally I started to click on the Warlock profiles to see what kind of players are complaining and I haven't been able to find a single player that has any actual hardcore raiding experience commenting on low DPS which is making me wonder if it is the class or the player - as in, maybe the class DPS is low but a good player can still compete with other classes in DPS.

Is the class really as bad as people are saying it is all over the forums?

Again, I'm looking for people that have hardcore raiding experience - I'd appreciate a profile link if you have comments on the DPS (you can private message me it and I will keep it private) just so I can see because like I said, out of all the profiles I've clicked from people complaining, I haven't found anybody that has cleared content at all while it was current.

I raided every content in WoD on mythic difficulity (highmaul as a hunter, brf and hfc as a warlock) and i am currently maining my warlock. Destruction is pretty decent dps wise right now, ST we are middle of the pack, thats just how it is and thats ok. 2 target cleave I feel we are nearly unbeatable, wreak havoc ist just so good! Demonology has huge ST potential and affliction is awesome on sustained aoe with 4+ targets. the complaints about warlock are not because of dps but because of gameplay. Huge ramp ups in demo and affliction, boring rotation in affliction and also very weak st damage( like frost dk bad, look up simcraft). Destruction will be the go to rading spec for the first content as i feel like destruction can handle the bosses mechanics very well due to its jack of all traits design since bc. Destructions only weakness is burst aoe but thats totally fine. If you plan on raiding high level focus on destruction and demonology. Affliction has niches in the raids to come(skorpyron comes to mind) and is absolutely mindblowingly godlike in destroying trash in mythic+ ( get soulflame trait in affliction asap, best trait of the affliction weapon imo). To put it in a nutshell our dps is in a good spot, our gameplay is not.