Surrender To Madness

[Deleted]

Hey guys

Decided to stick to shadow after beta even after our non-existent AOE, low performance without Surrender To Madness, crap survivability, shocking performance in duels and shockingly bad start of boss fights if you are on 0 insanity.

After doing most raid bosses, mythic 10 dungeons and so on in the beta I want to raise a few other problems that most people don't talk about, in regards to surrender and overall raid quality of life.

1. It has a 10 minute cooldown which means that on progress kills we are kinda shite. Say I use it in execute phase on boss and we wipe - then what? Do I make my raid wait 6-7 minutes so there is 2-3 minutes cd before we pull so it comes off by in the middle of the fight? There are engineering toys that can mass ress the whole raid which means no walking to bosses.

2. Starting on 0 insanity on pulls is the biggest pain ever. Especially in progress where you won't be able to save insanity from trash prior to the boss. On pulls I am already seeing people do 300-400k dps on 820 ilv where me and my 838 ilv are barely doing 70-80k spamming mind flay so I get 70 insanity. This was also the case in beta and sad it didn't get changed, especially when majority of bloodlusts go at the start which you waste with by spamming mind flay.

3. Picture this - phase where you need to keep moving from stuff and you are out of void form and boss is below 35% hp(no shadow word:death). You literally have to spam shadow word: pain just to get the most pathetic amount of insanity. In theory you can time the boss moving phase and save void form till then but even so that is such hard work and so much of it just so you can still be sub par in DPS - I don't understand it.

[Deja Thoris]

Just post in the existing threads?

1) StM resets on wipes. Same way your BL debuff does, or didn't it occur to you that you don't waste 10 min between progress wipes waiting for BL?

2) We've had shit ramp up forever. To be honest the class has bigger issues than that currently but yes, no-one enjoys mind-flaying the duration of a pot and a good chunk of BL.

3) All casters suffer to some extent from movement. One of the things that separates a good player from others is how they deal with that and its something you'll have to figure out on a fight by fight basis since you are fighting stuff with mechanics and not training dummies.

[tiptopmemer]

They really should just make S2M a regular cooldown, 2 minutes, 100% extra insanity, move while casting, no death on void form end.

This would fix a number of issues.

1. We finally get a cooldown, even if it doesn't synergize with heroism.
2. Helps our movement issues (Which most other casters have cooldowns/playstyles which already negate movement loses)
3. Alleviates ramp up time (still worse than all of spriest history)

[Deleted]

They really should just make S2M a regular cooldown, 2 minutes, 100% extra insanity, move while casting, no death on void form end.

This would fix a number of issues.

1. We finally get a cooldown, even if it doesn't synergize with heroism.
2. Helps our movement issues (Which most other casters have cooldowns/playstyles which already negate movement loses)
3. Alleviates ramp up time (still worse than all of spriest history)

i dont think so. Blizzard would have to nerf us really really hard all around the bord: DoT damag and single target damag to outweight this change. Then there is the problem of staying out of voidform for 60 sekonds because 80%-100% haste might be better then voidform. If you get a CD other abilitys will deal less damag.

[Deleted]

I'd like to comment in your second point since the rest is already answered in other threads.

You should look into the new sim crafts or give them a better look. Most classes deal their 500k dps on a pull if BL is used there. If you look at the form of their dmg graph it dips far below 250k in most occasions outside of these times. Shadow has, yes i agree after a very slow start an uninspired ramp up gameplay, sustained dps with higher numbers even than most classes. The exception being outlaw rogue and feral druid which seem to be very consistent.

The dmg we lack at the pull however gets completely irrelevant in the later parts of the fight where we are, thanks to StM top dps by far. You need to look at the space under the dps line which is equal for your dmg. It is more than twice as much as the one other dps classes have at the pull.

So you are looking at synergy here in raids where the shadow and maybe warrior carry the later, often more difficult, parts of the fight. So you might just enjoy your guaranteed raidspot because of that + your utility (think about mass dispel for example) and do your world content as discipline or holy like everyone else. Shadow ist supposed to be the glass canon stile of dps nuker and he fills that role pretty good. Kinda like every dps in the last phase of tyrant velhari.

Best regards

[Woop Woop]

I'd like to comment in your second point since the rest is already answered in other threads.

You should look into the new sim crafts or give them a better look. Most classes deal their 500k dps on a pull if BL is used there. If you look at the form of their dmg graph it dips far below 250k in most occasions outside of these times. Shadow has, yes i agree after a very slow start an uninspired ramp up gameplay, sustained dps with higher numbers even than most classes. The exception being outlaw rogue and feral druid which seem to be very consistent.

The dmg we lack at the pull however gets completely irrelevant in the later parts of the fight where we are, thanks to StM top dps by far. You need to look at the space under the dps line which is equal for your dmg. It is more than twice as much as the one other dps classes have at the pull.

So you are looking at synergy here in raids where the shadow and maybe warrior carry the later, often more difficult, parts of the fight. So you might just enjoy your guaranteed raidspot because of that + your utility (think about mass dispel for example) and do your world content as discipline or holy like everyone else. Shadow ist supposed to be the glass canon stile of dps nuker and he fills that role pretty good. Kinda like every dps in the last phase of tyrant velhari.

Best regards

What about fights where you cant hit anything for 10+ seconds? With StM that means you die.

[Zephirdd]

What about fights where you cant hit anything for 10+ seconds? With StM that means you die.

That's why you can't use S2M on fights you can't hit stuff for 10+ seconds? LotV is still there.

Also S2M is an execute talent. Ideally you'll die as the boss does, but you don't use it if you don't know if you can keep up. Black Rook Hold's last boss in an example of fight where you DON'T use it. Xavius on Darkhearth Ticket is a fight where you need to have a buddy with you all the time and someone to replace him to deal with the silence/fear mechanic - so you DON'T use S2M if you don't think you can keep up with that(tbh the dragon boss is a much better fight to use S2M on in that dungeon so that you can cast during winds). Don't even think about it on Vault of the Wardens, except for the first and the lava boss you can't properly use S2M. As always, knowing the fights is more beneficial than whatever talent you take.

People act like S2M is the only viable talent but we still output damn good dps with LotV, as dull as that talent is. We STILL have one of the strongest(if not THE strongest) execute phase in the game with Mass Hysteria and Shadow Word: Death synergizing so well with our Voidform. We even got Dispersion that we can time to move and keep up with our voidform, provided you know how the fights work. It's all about making a smart use of your abilities as well as keeping up with the mechanics. Don't underestimate your class just because you didn't do the "optimal" talents.

[justflayin]

What about fights where you cant hit anything for 10+ seconds? With StM that means you die.

Which fight is that? I can only think of one and its in the raid that isn't available and last boss of BRH.

[Woop Woop]

Which fight is that? I can only think of one and its in the raid that isn't available and last boss of BRH.

There has been fights like that before, im sure there will be again. And @Zephirdd, if we are balanced around StM and cant use it on all fights, what good is it then?
If we can use StM on all fights then yay, guess i'll have to use a talent i strongly dislike to be competitive?

[justflayin]

There has been fights like that before, im sure there will be again. And @Zephirdd, if we are balanced around StM and cant use it on all fights, what good is it then?
If we can use StM on all fights then yay, guess i'll have to use a talent i strongly dislike to be competitive?

Then don't use StM when its not optimal. If you know you can't hit the boss for a long period of time either don't use the talent or wait until that phase of the fight is over. Adjusting to boss mechanics is and always will be essential.

[Deleted]

People act like S2M is the only viable talent but we still output damn good dps with LotV, as dull as that talent is. We STILL have one of the strongest(if not THE strongest) execute phase in the game with Mass Hysteria and Shadow Word: Death synergizing so well with our Voidform. We even got Dispersion that we can time to move and keep up with our voidform, provided you know how the fights work. It's all about making a smart use of your abilities as well as keeping up with the mechanics. Don't underestimate your class just because you didn't do the "optimal" talents.

First let me say that i am pro shadow here but that is not true which is why people in other threads get so salty about it. Without StM and execute you cant use the potential from mass hysteria plus your stat priority is noticable different when using StM or not so your StM optimised gear is not the best for LotV. Even then your dmg is virtualy non existend so if there is a fight where you cant spend the last 90+ seconds of a fight in StM (I cant think of one) you are better of playing discipline or your raid leader can not justify bringing you over another guildie.To back my statement up: http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...9P.htmlHowever the discussion comes down to“is it ok to have only one viable 100 talent?“ since your playstyle does in fact change by your choice of the talents before StM.I dont see a problem with taking StM and being one of the top DPS and a must have for every raid for 90% of the bossfights in Legion. And please dont get triggered over mythics you have two other very viable specs for that

[Zephirdd]

First let me say that i am pro shadow here but that is not true which is why people in other threads get so salty about it. Without StM and execute you cant use the potential from mass hysteria plus your stat priority is noticable different when using StM or not so your StM optimised gear is not the best for LotV. Even then your dmg is virtualy non existend so if there is a fight where you cant spend the last 90+ seconds of a fight in StM (I cant think of one) you are better of playing discipline or your raid leader can not justify bringing you over another guildie.To back my statement up: http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...9P.htmlHowever the discussion comes down to“is it ok to have only one viable 100 talent?“ since your playstyle does in fact change by your choice of the talents before StM.I dont see a problem with taking StM and being one of the top DPS and a must have for every raid for 90% of the bossfights in Legion. And please dont get triggered over mythics you have two other very viable specs for that

are you really basing your arguments on the simulation craft of T19? Like, when Nighthold isn't even CLOSE to come online? When we don't even know what trinkets will drop on the intermission 3-boss raid on patch 7.1 or from kharazan?

Are you really using T19 as the basis for progression on the upcoming Emerald Nightmare/Mythic+ encounters? Seriously?

[Deleted]

are you really basing your arguments on the simulation craft of T19? Like, when Nighthold isn't even CLOSE to come online? When we don't even know what trinkets will drop on the intermission 3-boss raid on patch 7.1 or from kharazan?

Are you really using T19 as the basis for progression on the upcoming Emerald Nightmare/Mythic+ encounters? Seriously?

Yes. Since the tier set bonus does not affect your choice for Stm or LotV it simply boosts your dmg when entering voidform. So LotV should be even better if following your word that it is already “close“ to StM because you don't enter voidform ever again after using StM. Further why would you consider the trinkets from kharazan for the first raid that comes available in 2 weeks? So yes im basing it on this and we would have a lot less unnneccessary diskussions and hate for the priest on this forum if more people would show some kind of evidence.

Please show me a chart where LotV is as good as StM in current cotent and i will agree you.

[bobkin]

When you decide to play this class, you have to except certain things. I used to main mage, so I knew I would have a huge amount of burst every couple minutes but that burst was based off rng. If I had crits, then great. If not, well I was screwed.

Shadow is the opposite. You have probably these strongest execute phase in the game. StM is a great talent that pairs with Mass Hysteria so well. My plan going in to progression is to only pop it when the boss hits execute phase at 35%. As we get more gear, the fights gets shorter, I will start popping it earlier. You can typically get 90-100 seconds out of StM before you die. With Mass Hysteria, thats a ton of damage from dots. Using dispersion and void torrent is key as well since it stops your stacks. It will take a lot of practice to get good with the spec but I believe it will be one of the best specs going forward. The tier bonus from the Tier bonuses we get eventually are insane right now as well. If they don't change, I think they are cast void bot with no cd for 4 seconds and dot ticks give you insanity. The ticks giving us insanity will allow us to push even further into surrender to madness.

As for dungeons, I don't even worry about it. I have healed all mythics as holy honestly. I know that I will not perform well in dungeons and I'm fine with that, but I have a holy spec that can get me into almost anything I want since everyone always needs a healer