Does MW healing fails?

[Saverem]

This is what I've found works best too. If you get in nice and close to everyone, use the 'breath' golden trait you get from activating TFT and start spreading mist to get vivify procs and the middle golden trait to activate, you get some very nice consistent healing on a very short cooldown. It all ties together very nicely and feels really fluid and rewarding.

If you have that breath trait now, then you're doing it wrong. 3 of the 4 traits required to get that is crap.

[lonely zergling]

MW healing is awesome. If you have mana issues just drink after each group / boss. There is a toy which gives you a buff for 30 minutes that increases your regen from mage food by 50%.

[Nyel]

If you have that breath trait now, then you're doing it wrong. 3 of the 4 traits required to get that is crap.

You could argue that the Effuse trait is a bit underwhelming but you've got the same "crap" trait(s) on the other route.

[Saverem]

You could argue that the Effuse trait is a bit underwhelming but you've got the same "crap" trait(s) on the other route.

I disagree, the only arguably bad trait there is Spirit Tether (which is still good in PvP). Where as the one that goes straight to the breath trait requires you to get Soothing Remedies which is shit unless you're healing non heroic dungeons, Shroud of Mists which is crap for 3 points, and the Effuse buff which is also crap. I think I've used Effuse maybe 5 times in my entire time playing a Legion MW.

I think this is the best route to take: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/mistwea...-traits-relics

[Spotnick]

Another nice thing is using Essence Font, then quickly using TFT and spreading 3 ReMs with double mastery. Really nice when you need to top the group quickly.

Hmm, I never thought of that one, but that must be the quickest way to use the mastery procs for sure.

[Deleted]

I disagree, the only arguably bad trait there is Spirit Tether (which is still good in PvP). Where as the one that goes straight to the breath trait requires you to get Soothing Remedies which is shit unless you're healing non heroic dungeons, Shroud of Mists which is crap for 3 points, and the Effuse buff which is also crap. I think I've used Effuse maybe 5 times in my entire time playing a Legion MW.

I think this is the best route to take: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/mistwea...-traits-relics

yes, though i might swap 4 and 5.

[Deleted]

If you have that breath trait now, then you're doing it wrong. 3 of the 4 traits required to get that is crap.

"Doing it wrong"... wow. What a broad statement that doesnt even vaguely consider how I or the majority of people play.
I see you've been reading other peoples opinions and not doing any independent thinking. Shame on you!

Sure the 3 points in effuse isn't great. Neither are 4 points in life cocoon and 3 points in your teleport. Every path has traits which arent very useful. Either way you will be picking up duds. At least the soothing mists and effuse traits are of use to me a little. (Seriously, dont underestimate soothing mists, healing through walls on the move for no mana, what the hell blizz).
The teleport trait is literally 100% worthless. 15% life cocoon buff isnt worth more than the soothing mists traits are considering the cooldown. Revival trait is only good in a full raid group, which I havent even been in once yet.

Think of how your time is being spent currently. Sure in mythic raiding the extra revival healing is going to be amazing.
Thing is, the game has been out for 2 weeks now, and the mythic raid doesnt unlock for ANOTHER 2 weeks. In the meantime the renewing mists traits that I've had since like day 3 and TFT breath I got in week 2 have been infinitely more useful for the mythic dungeons that all my loot is coming from. They will continue to be amazing throughout all of the mythic+ dungeon content that I will be doing whilst the rest of my guild catches up to me and my 5 man teammates in gear ready for mythic raids.

Sure if we're talking about being at the absolute pinnacle of world first readiness in a raid-only context, I should have gone for revival trait. But thats totally moronic. That only makes up one tiny part of my progression that i cant even access yet. I know that when my guild actually reaches that level A) We won't be wiping because of my healing and B) I will probably be close to unlocking it anyway.

Even then, if I don't have the revival trait, I can just respec my points. It sets me back like a day or two worth of AP. Hardly make or break.

(Inb4 I get the legendary that reduces revival cooldown and I regret all my life choices and cry myself to sleep)

[Deleted]

@Scribbinge

It is true that following guides or such mindlessly isnt a good thing to do, but understanding why people who actually did testing and math say this or this route is the best is.

I don't know the route you're taking but my guess is, if you already have CB it means you have not taken what's been seen as optimal. It's not really wrong because like you said you'll eventually catch up since we'll all get all traits, but the thing is you are missing the huge trait that is mists of life (seriously this makes life cocoon one of the best CD in the game), on his own it makes it worth to take the 3 points in spirit tether.

It's true that raiding isnt out but you know this argument is in defavor of CB too because it needs 5 targets to take effect and in 5man it's almost impossible to get all 5 targets, and it'll probably do 70% overhealing anyway. The route that most people take have been proved as most optimal takes into account the best traits for 5man and the best power curve as we get 5man oriented traits first and then raid oriented traits.

[Deleted]

It is true that following guides or such mindlessly isnt a good thing to do, but understanding why people who actually did testing and math say this or this route is the best is.

I understand the rationale, I just disagree. You don't need to explain to me why they think those traits are good, I can see that, I just think theyre being overvalued for the current state of the game.

I don't know the route you're taking but my guess is, if you already have CB it means you have not taken what's been seen as optimal. It's not really wrong because like you said you'll eventually catch up since we'll all get all traits, but the thing is you are missing the huge trait that is mists of life (seriously this makes life cocoon one of the best CD in the game), on his own it makes it worth to take the 3 points in spirit tether.

Mists of life is not as good as you seem to think it is (in PvE). Life cocoon is used for its absorb and buff to HOTs. Any target in need of a life cocoon in PvE will already have both enveloping mists and renewing mists active, unless you were asleep and failed to predict the incoming damage. 9/10 all it does is refresh the durations of those HOTs. Its good, dont get me wrong, but its not as good as dancing mists on the other side of the tree which can regularly let you spread renewing mist over the whole group in 3 GCDs.
I dont value the life cocoon traits anywhere near as highly as I do the combined minor buffs to all of my core spells. I prefer to have buffs to what I'm doing 99% of the time to the one time every 3+ minutes you use life cocoon. Put it this way, I have never wiped because my un-traited life cocoon wasnt enough to keep the tank up.

It's true that raiding isnt out but you know this argument is in defavor of CB too because it needs 5 targets to take effect and in 5man it's almost impossible to get all 5 targets, and it'll probably do 70% overhealing anyway. The route that most people take have been proved as most optimal takes into account the best traits for 5man and the best power curve as we get 5man oriented traits first and then raid oriented traits.

Your logic here is very irrational. Celestial Breath hits up to 6 targets, there is no minimum number of people in order for it to trigger. In a mythic dungeon you can easily hit yourself, the tank and the 2-3 melee you probably have with the heal every 30 seconds. You have full control over when to trigger the heal so it absolutely will not overheal unless you decide it will.

I'm sure everyone has their own playstyle which will give different results, but unless you're a heavy user of essence font I fail to see how going for blessings of yu'lon is optimal.

[Nyel]

@ScribbingeIt is true that following guides or such mindlessly isnt a good thing to do, but understanding why people who actually did testing and math say this or this route is the best is.

You can do mathematics and theorycrafting for DPS and I agree with that. But for healing it's different. You can calculate which might be the best stats in this or that situation but in the end those are only theoretical assumptions because nobody can tell how the boss, the group or yourself will deal with the situation.

[Borfl]

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but Essence Font seems like a total piece of crap. Granted I only have 1/4 in the EF trait from a relic because I've filled out everything up to Breath, RM and EVM. It's like 3 ticks for 40k non-crit then a garbage HoT for 4k/tick and costs like all my mana- the 2x gusts is nice I guess but unless I'm mistaken those ticks from EF don't trigger gusts each time because everyone HP just goes up by 10% at most even after just 1 AOE. Most of the time I just have all my RMs pre-hotted w/ tea for AoE then spam 40% Vivs and that seems to top everyone quick. Strictly speaking 5 man Mythics.

Even Effuse seems like crap too. I mostly use it just to keep SM rolling on light tank damage to be efficient. Spamming it doesn't really budge tank's HP against tank shredders like Cordana even with RM+EVM(also talented for the 40% bonus) the only way the tanks HP will go up is if I waste double tea on Effuse which usually causes me too lose RM uptime on the DPS. Also I've just been using whatever haste and mastery comes my way, no idea what the stat weights are for traditional MW(I know FW is all haste), I seem to have a decent amount of mast(300%) so you'd think spamming Effuse for those gusts would actually be decent direct healing. I'm starting to think considering how HoT heavy MW is haste may be the way to go.

For the most part I just RM on cd, Viv during proc, EVM spot heal, and gift when the tank's HP just won't go up and it seems to work out fine.

[Deleted]

With haste mastery your essence font will be weak for sure. Essence font does heal more then vivify by a great margin. For 5 man you will see 270% for vivify and 366% Essence Font.

[Saverem]

"Doing it wrong"... wow. What a broad statement that doesnt even vaguely consider how I or the majority of people play.
I see you've been reading other peoples opinions and not doing any independent thinking. Shame on you!

Sure the 3 points in effuse isn't great. Neither are 4 points in life cocoon and 3 points in your teleport. Every path has traits which arent very useful. Either way you will be picking up duds. At least the soothing mists and effuse traits are of use to me a little. (Seriously, dont underestimate soothing mists, healing through walls on the move for no mana, what the hell blizz).
The teleport trait is literally 100% worthless. 15% life cocoon buff isnt worth more than the soothing mists traits are considering the cooldown. Revival trait is only good in a full raid group, which I havent even been in once yet.

Think of how your time is being spent currently. Sure in mythic raiding the extra revival healing is going to be amazing.
Thing is, the game has been out for 2 weeks now, and the mythic raid doesnt unlock for ANOTHER 2 weeks. In the meantime the renewing mists traits that I've had since like day 3 and TFT breath I got in week 2 have been infinitely more useful for the mythic dungeons that all my loot is coming from. They will continue to be amazing throughout all of the mythic+ dungeon content that I will be doing whilst the rest of my guild catches up to me and my 5 man teammates in gear ready for mythic raids.

Sure if we're talking about being at the absolute pinnacle of world first readiness in a raid-only context, I should have gone for revival trait. But thats totally moronic. That only makes up one tiny part of my progression that i cant even access yet. I know that when my guild actually reaches that level A) We won't be wiping because of my healing and B) I will probably be close to unlocking it anyway.

Even then, if I don't have the revival trait, I can just respec my points. It sets me back like a day or two worth of AP. Hardly make or break.

(Inb4 I get the legendary that reduces revival cooldown and I regret all my life choices and cry myself to sleep)

Could you be more succinct? I don't have time to read an essay on why you feel choosing bad talents is good.

Give me a TLDR.

[Nyel]

Could you be more succinct? I don't have time to read an essay on why you feel choosing bad talents is good.

Give me a TLDR.

It's not on you to judge which talents are bad or good. You may say "but theorycrafters said this and that" but in the end it doesn't matter, right? If they say take this path: fine, take it. But let others take their own way through the traits, even if you think it might be wrong. I went to Celestial Breath first because it's just more useful in 5-mans. I don't care if others think it's worse than Blessings of Yu'lon, for me it's not because TFT is used on CD while I barely use Revival in 5-mans.

[Deleted]

Mists of life is not as good as you seem to think it is (in PvE). Life cocoon is used for its absorb and buff to HOTs. Any target in need of a life cocoon in PvE will already have both enveloping mists and renewing mists active, unless you were asleep and failed to predict the incoming damage. 9/10 all it does is refresh the durations of those HOTs. Its good, dont get me wrong, but its not as good as dancing mists on the other side of the tree which can regularly let you spread renewing mist over the whole group in 3 GCDs.
I dont value the life cocoon traits anywhere near as highly as I do the combined minor buffs to all of my core spells. I prefer to have buffs to what I'm doing 99% of the time to the one time every 3+ minutes you use life cocoon. Put it this way, I have never wiped because my un-traited life cocoon wasnt enough to keep the tank up.

Have you ever tried Mists of life ? If you did you would probably don't say that. It's true that most of the time you don't need Mist of life, but it turns LC in a CD that's almost as potent as a Lay of Hands, if someone fails you can cover this mistake using LC and having it topped without even spending a gcd, it become an actual reactive CD. This may not be important for HM/MM but it will make the difference in MM+.

Your logic here is very irrational. Celestial Breath hits up to 6 targets, there is no minimum number of people in order for it to trigger. In a mythic dungeon you can easily hit yourself, the tank and the 2-3 melee you probably have with the heal every 30 seconds. You have full control over when to trigger the heal so it absolutely will not overheal unless you decide it will.

How am i irrational ? The healing per person of celestial breath is like half an effuse per target, it won't make a difference when your whole groupe gets hammered down. Especially when the best way to TFT is to pump out the rems before the aoe comes so you can have a lot of UT procs and strong hot healing.
And this is rational, you will always 100% of the time get all 5 targets with revival so you can't miss a Yulon when you can easily miss a CB. But like i said ahead, they are both almost irrelevant in 5man, that's why they are both taken after all the best traits.

I'm sure everyone has their own playstyle which will give different results, but unless you're a heavy user of essence font I fail to see how going for blessings of yu'lon is optimal.

The optimal route is not to go right for yulon. You go mists of life then Mists of sheilun then Extended healing then Dancing mist then yulon.

You can do mathematics and theorycrafting for DPS and I agree with that. But for healing it's different. You can calculate which might be the best stats in this or that situation but in the end those are only theoretical assumptions because nobody can tell how the boss, the group or yourself will deal with the situation.

Wait what, ofc in real life you have overhealing to take into account and such, that's why we base ourselves on actual log testing from different strong player to see how each thing goes in a more realistic environment than paper. Even if theory =/= Reality the goal of theorycrafters is to actually alter the theory to get realistic numbers that you should get if you play well, there isnt a ton of parameters to take when it comes to healing : Overhealing and missing targets (reducing potency of aoe spells), if you can figure those two out you can just math numbers you would get in a fight.

EDIT : @Nyel

You can go whatever route you want but you can't say false affirmations like "CB is just better in 5man" when it's not true, you're may confuse people looking for information.

[Astraios]

Have you ever tried Mists of life ? If you did you would probably don't say that. It's true that most of the time you don't need Mist of life, but it turns LC in a CD that's almost as potent as a Lay of Hands, if someone fails you can cover this mistake using LC and having it topped without even spending a gcd, it become an actual reactive CD. This may not be important for HM/MM but it will make the difference in MM+.



How am i irrational ? The healing per person of celestial breath is like half an effuse per target, it won't make a difference when your whole groupe gets hammered down. Especially when the best way to TFT is to pump out the rems before the aoe comes so you can have a lot of UT procs and strong hot healing.
And this is rational, you will always 100% of the time get all 5 targets with revival so you can't miss a Yulon when you can easily miss a CB. But like i said ahead, they are both almost irrelevant in 5man, that's why they are both taken after all the best traits.



The optimal route is not to go right for yulon. You go mists of life then Mists of sheilun then Extended healing then Dancing mist then yulon.



Wait what, ofc in real life you have overhealing to take into account and such, that's why we base ourselves on actual log testing from different strong player to see how each thing goes in a more realistic environment than paper. Even if theory =/= Reality the goal of theorycrafters is to actually alter the theory to get realistic numbers that you should get if you play well, there isnt a ton of parameters to take when it comes to healing : Overhealing and missing targets (reducing potency of aoe spells), if you can figure those two out you can just math numbers you would get in a fight.

EDIT : @Nyel

You can go whatever route you want but you can't say false affirmations like "CB is just better in 5man" when it's not true, you're may confuse people looking for information.

Mathematically CB outheals revival trait. 270% to 6*6 vs 240% to group. Hint: CB raw throughput is twice as high as revival trait. You need extremely bad positioning for it to be ineffective healing to the degree that the revival trait is better. Oh, and in groups CB is just straight more healing than the revival trait on 1/6 the CD, if you have melee groups, which based on the current strengths of melee...is ideal.

Also, extended healing is pretty overrated. Each point is 262.5% sp pre-secondary stats per minute. It doesn't compete with the CB heal on a single target, let alone six, or per minute.

[Deleted]

Mathematically CB outheals revival trait. 270% to 6*6 vs 240% to group. Hint: CB raw throughput is twice as high as revival trait. You need extremely bad positioning for it to be ineffective healing to the degree that the revival trait is better. Oh, and in groups CB is just straight more healing than the revival trait on 1/6 the CD, if you have melee groups, which based on the current strengths of melee...is ideal.

I've talked about this in the thread about yulon vs CB

On paper this is true, in reality average overhealing of CB is 50-60%% when yulon is around 20%, so they average out pretty quickly, too lazy to precisely math this out but from now, the balance of power between CB and yulon is depending on fight length concerning total healing.

Now we're gonna talk actual utility. Yulon adds a serious boost to revival, as the main flaw of MW monk is the lack of huge raid burst since revival is the CD with less potency. CB is a low healing but repetitive, but low. When you need burst Celestial breath is not gonna help you, whereas yulon is a very powerful burst and it can save lives when CB will just passively do 1/2% of your output.

Btw it's funny because Nyel was talking about theorycraft that doesnt apply to the realities of fights and this is exactly that kind of theorycraft that you're doing now xd

[Saverem]

It's not on you to judge which talents are bad or good. You may say "but theorycrafters said this and that" but in the end it doesn't matter, right? If they say take this path: fine, take it. But let others take their own way through the traits, even if you think it might be wrong. I went to Celestial Breath first because it's just more useful in 5-mans. I don't care if others think it's worse than Blessings of Yu'lon, for me it's not because TFT is used on CD while I barely use Revival in 5-mans.

Actually I can judge, as it is my opinion. You can take it with a grain a salt, but anyone is entitled to give their opinion.

I said he was doing it wrong, if he disagrees he is free to do so. However, I can provide more empirical evidence that my route is better via maths. If they want to go another route, they are of course free to do so.

If you want the breath because you think it's better for 5mans (I still think Mists of Shelun is a better talent than it), then go for it.

[Nyel]

@Nyel
You can go whatever route you want but you can't say false affirmations like "CB is just better in 5man" when it's not true, you're may confuse people looking for information.

I can't say that? Why? Because a guide or theorycrafter tells you otherwise? It's better for me. That's what counts. If it's better for others doesn't depend on me or the guide, it solely depends on the other person. So it's neither me nor you to judge, I'm just speaking from my (practical) standpoint while others talk about their (theoretical) standpoint. Sure you can calculate what might be better and I'm fine with people doing that but it's just a calculation in the end.

I barely use Revival in 5-mans while I use TFT on CD. And Celestial Breath heals for ~ 120% of a normal Effuse (when I take my numbers) or ~ 85% of a Vivify, doesn't cost anything and just needs some positioning. As I said, I went this route with a purpose and it's working for me - that's the important factor.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want the breath because you think it's better for 5mans (I still think Mists of Shelun is a better talent than it), then go for it.

Agree. That's what I did - you did something different - that's okay as well. As you said, everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

[Thra]

I won't be going for Yu'lon anytime soon, mainly because I don't use revive. It's so weak these days. It used to be a raid saving healing CD, but now I feel it does nothing. Heals for around 200k according to my tooltip. Not exactly game breaking...