Warlock = instant PUG kick

[Segus1992]

Today I got kicked several times from PUG groups. One group didn't even say anything, just kicked the moment the group formed

The other group the leader just said "we want a fast run, warlocks are shit so we are taking a mage"

This sounds like bullshit, just gonna say it.

[Uzkin]

Mechanically, they are boring (Or extremely unforgiving in demo's case), clunky, and generally "unfinished". Those are the least likely changes we will get, but the ones that are most needed. Any semi decent player can perform decently, and the number tuning should be easy to do.

Exactly this. Blizzard's design of warlocks in Legion generally feels lazy, clueless, neglected and poorly thought-out; unfortunately, it is very hard to compel them into making actual design improvements at this point (instead of just simple numbers tuning).

Still, the sheer volume of complaints on the forums might yet be enough to force Blizzard into actually putting some effort into designing warlocks -- something they apparently didn't bother with pre-launch. Fortunately, it is quite impossible for them to just take the lazy way out and buff the numbers since those of us who can properly exploit the few OP talents/traits we have can already produce good numbers. No, if they want to fix this they HAVE to put some thought and effort into the actual mechanics/gameplay/spec-identity aspects of the class, and improve it. One hopes...

[Mhorrg]

I often feel like I'm playing a different class than the one people are talking about on these forums.

I'm enjoyed Afflicition's rotation, their design. I find them awesome in PvP and PvE. I keep up with priests and mages in DPS. I can AoE farm mobs 8+ at a time. I have what is effectively a limitless mana and health pool. I love this class and I just cannot understand people who are having a bad time with it. I also just call straight bull on the OP. If you're getting constantly kicked from dungeons then you're either doing something to offend them or you have a bad rep.

[Uzkin]

While Wreak Havoc is great on some trash packs (those with 2 or three mobs), I found Cataclysm to be a rather weak AoE spell compared to the burst AoE I see Warriors, DHs, monks, hunters etc doing, which is rather sad, considering Cataclysm used to be the #1 TOP AoE spell in the game, but now it hits for wet noodles compared to other classes' burst AoE AND it is on a long cooldown.

This reminds me of a Vault of the Wardens pug run I did some days ago on my fury warrior, with a ww monk and destro lock in the team. There was one massive imp pack pull where I did approx. 2.2M AoE dps (yes, 2.2 million damage per second), the monk around 2M, and the destro... managed to drop RoF just as the pack died. He literally /cried.

[Valech]

Thanks OP, I didn´t know warlocks were that bad. I´ll make sure not to bring them in the future.

[DeadmanWalking]

Well they killed Demo off, so that's not really surprising where and how that ended up as it did. Other than that, people were fine mechanically with Aff and Destro; they needed and received small buffs and all was well with the world.

MoP was a decent enough launch though, the first iterations of the 90 talents were a huge issue that never really got resolved properly so they just ended up over-buffing KJC because they didn't know what else to do. Even then, it wasn't as strong as Archimonde's Darkness ended up being. I think maybe Aff was a little weak, and got some minor adjustments to its DoT Vs ST damage but that was pretty much it.

I suppose all the whiney shit at the start of Cataclysm was unjustified though, because Mastery snapshotting kept Demo balanced, and as long as you managed 100% ISF up time with the other specs, they were okay too?

And 6 DoTs plus Shadow Embrace was entirely acceptable ramp up and switching in Naxx?

I can't attest for raiding in cata, I didn't get to raid until dragon soul because A: My computer was shitty and couldn't handle raiding, B: Most of my time was spent traveling the east coast in what a wow player would equate to a 'world first' Warhammer tournament league.
I have played casually since Vanilla here or there but didn't really get invested in the game until Firelands was ending. My computer was so shitty that it would lock up in cities. Then I got my Graphic design Degree, got a real job and hand built my own gaming computer.

- - - Updated - - -

This reminds me of a Vault of the Wardens pug run I did some days ago on my fury warrior, with a ww monk and destro lock in the team. There was one massive imp pack pull where I did approx. 2.2M AoE dps (yes, 2.2 million damage per second), the monk around 2M, and the destro... managed to drop RoF just as the pack died. He literally /cried.

If high numbers on trash packs are what make your day have at it, but trash means jack shit in comparison to how a class plays at bosses. Trash is just the shit in the way of you getting to a real challenge. If you are judging people based on their trash #'s and not their boss #'s and ability to deal with mechanics then you are doing it wrong. You ever notice that no one does sim dps charts based on trash? It's because no one really cares about trash dps.

- - - Updated - - -

Currently the only dps sim I have seen that is this expansion is 840 single target patchwork and demo is #1 among ranged dps, 4th among all dps. Mind you it is single target raid boss sim.

[RedNight at MMOC]

It's impossible to get kicked immediately.

Someone beat me to it. But that is correct, I stopped taking the original poster seriously when I read the line "just kicked the moment the group formed."

[Deleted]

Today I got kicked several times from PUG groups. One group didn't even say anything, just kicked the moment the group formed

The other group the leader just said "we want a fast run, warlocks are shit so we are taking a mage"

Liar liar pants on fire

[DeadmanWalking]

Someone beat me to it. But that is correct, I stopped taking the original poster seriously when I read the line "just kicked the moment the group formed."

Some people apply for random pug raids and keep getting the 'your application has been denied' response and they immiediately blame their class for it, but there are many reasons people deny applications to pug groups, from we have a warlock or two already, we dont need more ranged dps, your ilevel is too low, there was someone with higher ilevel that applied at the same time, we picked another class and we were full, to we just need a dps with heroism.

Then you get random dungeons where someone sees a warlock and says, "Kick them, they say on forums that warlocks suck" and then that person goes on the forums and says, "I got kicked because warlocks suck." which just fuels the machine of ignorance that keeps warlocks from finding groups because someone else reads it and decides to do the same thing.

[Deleted]

Some people apply for random pug raids and keep getting the 'your application has been denied' response and they immiediately blame their class for it, but there are many reasons people deny applications to pug groups, from we have a warlock or two already, we dont need more ranged dps, your ilevel is too low, there was someone with higher ilevel that applied at the same time, we picked another class and we were full, to we just need a dps with heroism.

Then you get random dungeons where someone sees a warlock and says, "Kick them, they say on forums that warlocks suck" and then that person goes on the forums and says, "I got kicked because warlocks suck." which just fuels the machine of ignorance that keeps warlocks from finding groups because someone else reads it and decides to do the same thing.

I have never in my 10 year long wow career seen anyone kicked from a dungeon before it started on the count of that someone being a specific class. I haven't seen it in the multitude of pug he groups I do each day. An hour ago I did Arcway with a warlock, no complaints.

[Irian]

Affliction on Mythic+ becomes better every increase of difficulty, Saw of Seeds shines on High living mobs and Artifact golden traits aswell.

Destro lock with Wreak Havoc and Cataclysm can melt down hard trash packs.

I'm pretty much convinced most ppl actually don't play properly and don't use the handful toolkit we have.

Taking Cataclysm almost never seems to be sensibly worth it if you're in an extremely aggressively pulling group. RE and Mana Tap both have very good applications for AoE and ST.

Destruction is pretty alright for dungeons though, or at least as good as warlocks get(can't speak much for affliction as I only tested it in basic mythics on beta for a bit), but when you talk about what classes are good or bad at certain aspects of the game you have to look at our competitors and hunters and mages can absolutely stomp on our damage in Mythic. The primary issue is that there's something each spec struggles with because of a gaping hole in class design; whereas other classes have to choose between, say, a cleave and a ST effect, we instead have talents like Sow the Seeds and Wreak Havoc that may help a lot to accomplish one thing but are absolutely useless in the other, and it leads to this bizarre feeling of constantly playing a half-class that doesn't have a tool for a specific situation that every other class does. Destruction has to spec into any kind of immediate-damage AoE spell to have one at all.
That's why there are these situations where people are unable to deal with the class and have been playing it for years and yet are struggling so hard. The class is pretty much broken into pieces and we're forced to choose talents that neuter us in some way to get something back.

[DeadmanWalking]

The only game I saw people giving a shit what they had in thier group as far as classes went was ffxi, and that was because of thier TP system. You fight one mob at a time and every time it gets hit with an attack it gained TP. Once it hit 100% TP it would use a special defence or attack that made the fight hard. If you swung a slow weapon for a lot of damage it was preferable to someone who swung two weapons fast for a little damage because the later generated more TP on the mob than the slow hard hit. So no one wanted a class that also attacked with pets like beast master or dragoon (baby dragon pet).
Furthermore there were classes that had specific roles, 2 ninjas could tank while taking nearly 0 damage so you wouldnt need a main healer, a warrior worked well as an off tank to set the paladin up with a rogue backstabbing aggro onto the paladin tank. Which classes you had directly impacted your ability to gain a level.

All that doesn't mean jack shit in wow, nobody cares if they have a shaman or a warlock in pug groups unless they specifically need heroism. At that point it doesn't matter if warlock is best at dps and elemental is worst, because they will take shaman regardless because they need heroism.

[Deleted]

The only game I saw people giving a shit what they had in thier group as far as classes went was ffxi, and that was because of thier TP system. You fight one mob at a time and every time it gets hit with an attack it gained TP. Once it hit 100% TP it would use a special defence or attack that made the fight hard. If you swung a slow weapon for a lot of damage it was preferable to someone who swung two weapons fast for a little damage because the later generated more TP on the mob than the slow hard hit. So no one wanted a class that also attacked with pets like beast master or dragoon (baby dragon pet).
Furthermore there were classes that had specific roles, 2 ninjas could tank while taking nearly 0 damage so you wouldnt need a main healer, a warrior worked well as an off tank to set the paladin up with a rogue backstabbing aggro onto the paladin tank. Which classes you had directly impacted your ability to gain a level.

All that doesn't mean jack shit in wow, nobody cares if they have a shaman or a warlock in pug groups unless they specifically need heroism. At that point it doesn't matter if warlock is best at dps and elemental is worst, because they will take shaman regardless because they need heroism.

For a mythic plus dungeon yes. For a mythic dungeon I wouldn't care tbh

[helic]

What are the DPS numbers people are pulling down with each spec in heroics/mythics? I only play aff and at my top end best on a normal boss fight I can hit 150k dps.

[RedNight at MMOC]

Some people apply for random pug raids

This thread is not talking about raids - it is talking about using the LFG system for a Normal/Heroic Dungeon.

What are the DPS numbers people are pulling down with each spec in heroics/mythics? I only play aff and at my top end best on a normal boss fight I can hit 150k dps.

Without Heroism, my Havoc Demon Hunter can pull 200-250k DPS in 837 gear. With Heroism, the DPS is over 300k.

[Barnabas]

What are the DPS numbers people are pulling down with each spec in heroics/mythics? I only play aff and at my top end best on a normal boss fight I can hit 150k dps.

Your class fantasy for 5 mans is to play destruction. You do twice the dps as affliction and if not then its a player issue.

[Deleted]

i dont understand where this comes from, ive cleared full myths this week keeping up with everything barring our regular feral and monks if shits dies fast, rogues have decent numbers also.

I think numbers arent terrible, its more the design, aka shards etc

[Woz]

Closing this before the madness continues.

Not really any relevant conversation going to happen here anymore, or at all.