Vivify versus Effuse.

[st33l]

So doing the math here, on deciding when we should cast Vivify over effuse.

It seems without being particularly mastery heavy (I am at about 4394, with 26728 SP), with 20% increase to Vivify and 3% increase to Effuse, these are my numbers.
My HPM for effuse is - 5.42
My HPM for Vivify per number of targets is,
. 1 target - 3.13
. 2 targets - 5.07
. 3 targets - 7.0

All this changes with the Vivify proc to,
. 1 target - 4.38
. 2 targets - 7.1
. 3 targets - 9.8

(this is all based on the assumption that mastery can crit)

This being the case, it seems that the only time it is better to cast Vivify over effuse (assuming no immediate danger of someone dying exists) is if there are at least three targets below full health, or two below full health if the proc is active.


This seems different than what a lot of people have been saying, that effuse is rarely cast. It would seem that in periods when everyone is topped off and the tank is the only one taking damage, effuse *would* be the only heal we would cast.


Sound about right?

[Deleted]

You only see close hpm if you have lot of master instead of other stats. Gust of Mists is only on the primary target on vivfy.

[st33l]

All of this is not even looking at essence font - where the HPM of effuse would just skyrocket compared to vivify.

[Nyel]

If I need to trigger SoM I tend to cast Effuse if there is no need for another EM or Vivify. Vivify is my usual heal for 3 or more targets with less than ~ 90% health (when there's no ReM going).

Due to Mastery (that I'm stacking right now for 5mans) my Effuse heals for ~ 110-120k per cast (55k Effuse, 65k Mastery).

[Deleted]

Gearing for mastery buffs your worst spell in the expense for your more powerful ones.

[Nyel]

Gearing for mastery buffs your worst spell in the expense for your more powerful ones.

I don't really care about that as long as it's working properly. As I said, 5man. ReM, EM, Mastery and SoM+Vivify (10+10%) nearly get 20% each and I'm fine with that. Doesn't make sense to me to not gather Mastery because of Essence Font / Revival that is barely used in dungeons. It's working for me (and I'm not gearing Mastery for Effuse, I barely use Effuse) and does the job, it's reliable and it fills the lack of little burst heals Monks don't have.

It might be theoretically wrong but in practice it's great for me.

[nodq]

You guys seem to forget some important point about mastery. If you go full out mastery then you force yourself to cast a lot otherwise it is a wasted stat because it does not boost your HoTs or other healing spells at all. It just adds an heal everytime you cast something. So you are forcing yourself to cast a lot to get the most benefit from it. Wouldn't it be better to have your HotS and heals, heal for more so that you are not forced to cast more because 1. your heals do heal for less and 2. you want to benefit from your mastery stacking? I tried both, versa/crit and mastery crit. And i have to say, mastery is just not that good if you think about it for real.

[Nyel]

You guys seem to forget some important point about mastery. If you go full out mastery then you force yourself to cast a lot otherwise it is a wasted stat because it does not boost your HoTs or other healing spells at all. It just adds an heal everytime you cast something. So you are forcing yourself to cast a lot to get the most benefit from it. Wouldn't it be better to have your HotS and heals, heal for more so that you are not forced to cast more because 1. your heals do heal for less and 2. you want to benefit from your mastery stacking? I tried both, versa/crit and mastery crit. And i have to say, mastery is just not that good if you think about it for real.

Mastery produces nearly no overheal for me while the HoTs by themselves tend to overheal a lot. With Mastery our ReM becomes some kind of "Riptide" with a nice initial heal and a very strong HoT going, the same with EM.

I know that some heals don't profit from Mastery but those skills are barely used in dungeons. And I'm not going "full" Mastery, I'm just prefering items where I have Mastery as a secondary stat on it (unless the item level difference is huge).

[Zorless]

With crit/vers I got plenty of time to dps aswell. Will be great in mythic+

[Asrialol]

I've been running mastery build now and find it to work nice, but I'm missing the extra DPS crit/haste gives me. Think I'll go for a crit or haste build instead.

[Deleted]

Not intending to be rude or abrasive here but I don't understand the point of this thread. If I understand you right, the question is "Is a single target heal better at multi target healing than an multi target heal?" which obviously it isn't.

The only scenario I could see worth discussing is after an essence font when everyone is on low health, does effuse proc sufficiently more gusts of mist to warrant using over vivify's extra cleave healing? I'd suspect not, but it would probably be more mana efficient.

Am I missing something?

[Deleted]

I have been stacking Mastery as well since it is best for WW and simply is on my ilvl gear anyway.

I rarely cast Effuse at all in 5man since there is almost always more damage than just on the tank and if there is tank damage only I usually cast renewing mist and enveloping mist and the soothing mist channel does the rest.

In the rare event of a single target spike I use the artifact spell.

[nodq]

Mastery produces nearly no overheal for me while the HoTs by themselves tend to overheal a lot. With Mastery our ReM becomes some kind of "Riptide" with a nice initial heal and a very strong HoT going, the same with EM.

I know that some heals don't profit from Mastery but those skills are barely used in dungeons. And I'm not going "full" Mastery, I'm just prefering items where I have Mastery as a secondary stat on it (unless the item level difference is huge).

That's the point, no heal profits from mastery unless you CAST. And when HoTs overheal, then there is nothing to heal anyways, and therfor gusts procc also wouldn't do anything other than overhealing too.

[Saverem]

Not intending to be rude or abrasive here but I don't understand the point of this thread. If I understand you right, the question is "Is a single target heal better at multi target healing than an multi target heal?" which obviously it isn't.

The only scenario I could see worth discussing is after an essence font when everyone is on low health, does effuse proc sufficiently more gusts of mist to warrant using over vivify's extra cleave healing? I'd suspect not, but it would probably be more mana efficient.

Am I missing something?

Best course of action after an EF is still popping TFT and getting off 3 insta-ReMs. Or if you need a big heal for one then insta EM + 2 ReMs.

[st33l]

Not intending to be rude or abrasive here but I don't understand the point of this thread. If I understand you right, the question is "Is a single target heal better at multi target healing than an multi target heal?" which obviously it isn't.

The only scenario I could see worth discussing is after an essence font when everyone is on low health, does effuse proc sufficiently more gusts of mist to warrant using over vivify's extra cleave healing? I'd suspect not, but it would probably be more mana efficient.

Am I missing something?

Yes. I am not asking if I should use Vivify in a clear multi-target situation (i.e., at least 3 people injured), which I obviously should. The question is regarding using effuse in multi-target situations and vivify in single/two target situations and the viability of both.

i.e., are there any situations that I should cast Vivify in single/two target healing situations also? There have been discussions around indicating this - while my math shows that unless we have a proc up, we should never cast Vivify unless at least three people will definitely benefit from the heal. The other side of that is, even in multi-target situations, with EF up, effuse actually becomes a better multi-target heal also. So this would indicate that effuse should be used fairly often - yet there are several threads which mention that effuse is a rarely used spell.

Since my math doesn't seem to support this - i.e., effuse should actually be used fairly often, this thread is to try to clarify, why is it that so many people are saying that it is rarely used?


I am not sure if I can break this down more, but I hope this makes the purpose of the thread clear.

[Deleted]

Effuse is 200% spellpower. Vivify is 270%. Effuse gets 10% from trait and vivify gets 15% from traits. To cast 3 effuses you need to use 6% of your mana while 1 vivify will cost your 4.5% of mana. 4394 is quite heavy into the mastery, thats 125% master + the base of 80% mastery, so its far from low.

If you use effuse as the base heal 200% for 2% mana you can see how the other spells become more effective then it. Vivify with its 4,5%mana heals 3 targets for a total of 270%, (310.5% with trait). Essense Font with its 8% heal at 4 people for 366% (420% with trait), this can tho hit 18 people for 146% each (167.9 with trait).

So its doesnt take much at all to become more mana effective then effuse at all.

[Deleted]

Best course of action after an EF is still popping TFT and getting off 3 insta-ReMs. Or if you need a big heal for one then insta EM + 2 ReMs.

I usually have my renewing mists rolling before I essence font, since I want to get vivify procs coming asap. I think essence font should come after TFT & mist rather than before, unless anyone is very close to death, that way you can maximise the duration of the double mastery buff.

Yes. I am not asking if I should use Vivify in a clear multi-target situation (i.e., at least 3 people injured), which I obviously should. The question is regarding using effuse in multi-target situations and vivify in single/two target situations and the viability of both.

i.e., are there any situations that I should cast Vivify in single/two target healing situations also? There have been discussions around indicating this - while my math shows that unless we have a proc up, we should never cast Vivify unless at least three people will definitely benefit from the heal. The other side of that is, even in multi-target situations, with EF up, effuse actually becomes a better multi-target heal also. So this would indicate that effuse should be used fairly often - yet there are several threads which mention that effuse is a rarely used spell.

Since my math doesn't seem to support this - i.e., effuse should actually be used fairly often, this thread is to try to clarify, why is it that so many people are saying that it is rarely used?


I am not sure if I can break this down more, but I hope this makes the purpose of the thread clear.

Thanks that makes more sense thanks.
I get your point now but I think youre looking at it wrong, and probably overthinking it.
As rizso says, I think mana efficiency is more of a concern than throughput if youre considering effuse vs vivify, since you're highly unlikely to ever be in a situation where you would need to even consider spamming effuse from a throughput perspective, and soothing mists will always be more efficient.

In any moderate to heavy damage situation its going to be very clear what spell to use for maximum efficiency (EnvM, EF, Viv etc) whereas I find that effuse is simply the spell I use to swap my soothing mists target when damage is minimal and I want to recover mana. Effuse is your "noone is taking much damage, and i need to recover / save mana" spell.

I don't think you should ever be using effuse more than a couple times in a row. If you find youself healing a 3rd target, you should have used a vivify, and if you find yourself healing the same target twice with effuse - you should have just channelled SM for longer in the first instance or used EnvM if SM cant keep up.

Even in situations where 2 people are damaged the answer is pretty clear cut. cast effuse on 1, channel SM to top off and then switch to do the same to person 2. SM is so much more efficient and has good enough throughput. If either of those targets are in any significant danger then effuse was never the spell you should have been using unless its the only cast that can complete quick enough before they die.

People don't need to be 100% at all times. You should always have renewing mists on 2+ people to maximise the likelihood of having a vivify proc when you need it, so let renewing mist do the work and fill in the gaps with SM. If any more damage is coming in then it should be pretty obvious vivify or enveloping mists territory. Just go with your gut instinct for each situation - its probably right.

Feel free to disagree, but thats what I've found so far.

[Dolmabahce]

You should use Effuse if you only have 1 target below 85% health.
You should use Vivify if you have 2 or 3 targets below 85% health.

At least that's how my math comes out.

[st33l]

I usually have my renewing mists rolling before I essence font, since I want to get vivify procs coming asap. I think essence font should come after TFT & mist rather than before, unless anyone is very close to death, that way you can maximise the duration of the double mastery buff.



Thanks that makes more sense thanks.
I get your point now but I think youre looking at it wrong, and probably overthinking it.
As rizso says, I think mana efficiency is more of a concern than throughput if youre considering effuse vs vivify, since you're highly unlikely to ever be in a situation where you would need to even consider spamming effuse from a throughput perspective, and soothing mists will always be more efficient.

In any moderate to heavy damage situation its going to be very clear what spell to use for maximum efficiency (EnvM, EF, Viv etc) whereas I find that effuse is simply the spell I use to swap my soothing mists target when damage is minimal and I want to recover mana. Effuse is your "noone is taking much damage, and i need to recover / save mana" spell.

I don't think you should ever be using effuse more than a couple times in a row. If you find youself healing a 3rd target, you should have used a vivify, and if you find yourself healing the same target twice with effuse - you should have just channelled SM for longer in the first instance or used EnvM if SM cant keep up.

Even in situations where 2 people are damaged the answer is pretty clear cut. cast effuse on 1, channel SM to top off and then switch to do the same to person 2. SM is so much more efficient and has good enough throughput. If either of those targets are in any significant danger then effuse was never the spell you should have been using unless its the only cast that can complete quick enough before they die.

People don't need to be 100% at all times. You should always have renewing mists on 2+ people to maximise the likelihood of having a vivify proc when you need it, so let renewing mist do the work and fill in the gaps with SM. If any more damage is coming in then it should be pretty obvious vivify or enveloping mists territory. Just go with your gut instinct for each situation - its probably right.

Feel free to disagree, but thats what I've found so far.

Thanks. This helps.
I've found Soothing to be very lackluster till now. It barely does 2% of my healing - this is when I have mistwraps talented and I am channeling it pretty much all the time.