does disc have a place in a raid?

[Droodid]

I think raid groups is where disc will shine. Going in a 10 man group but cant decide between 2 healers or 3? Disc priest is a perfect choice. Going with a mythic group and 20 people, disc will be a solid utility by providing both a DPS boost as well as healing boost. 5-man's don't really let 1 single class shine more than another as much as a raid can, and I think disc will fit well in raid groups.

[GT4]

I don't understand your point. The optimal specialization is the one which keeps the group alive while doing the most dps.

A holy priest can currently be expected to do between 0 and 200k DPS single target and between 0 and 500k DPS AoE depending on many variables, the main one being healing required.

A discipline priest can currently be expected to do between 50k and 200k DPS single target and AoE depending on many variables, the main one being how much single target healing is required.

You're basically asking for one random number on the disc scale to compare to one random number on your holy scale. That's completely pointless.

[makketota]

I think raid groups is where disc will shine. Going in a 10 man group but cant decide between 2 healers or 3? Disc priest is a perfect choice. Going with a mythic group and 20 people, disc will be a solid utility by providing both a DPS boost as well as healing boost. 5-man's don't really let 1 single class shine more than another as much as a raid can, and I think disc will fit well in raid groups.

For any kind of encounter that has sustained aoe damage, I just can't see disc beeing any good, due to the fact that our hps almost flatlines during the window in which we reapply attonement to raid members. In situations where disc is strong ( i.e burst on set intervals) , they are not stronger than other healers. I can already feel the annoyance of having to move during a set-up for incoming damage and falling behind

[Simulacrum]

It doesn't make any sense because it entirely depends on the context (the context being a) how much healing is required and b) what type of healing is required). There's absolutely no point in throwing effectively random numbers around and comparing those.

Right... a context which isn't any more random than those numbers you allege are.

[Deleted]

I don't understand your point. The optimal specialization is the one which keeps the group alive while doing the most dps.

Nearly correct. The optimal specialization keeps the highest DPS group alive.

[Franarok]

The fact of try keep the expiation up on most of the raid (when raid damage...something terrible common on this expansion) in order to be able to heal them is the worst. That design is odd.


Other healers with hots also must keep them, but that hots by their own do nice healing, and them usually have ways to heal entire groups or place several hots at time. The discipline while are placing expiations is not healing at all. Until we finish of placing buffs and cast a penance, we are doing near zero healing neither doing dps...that is a fail. A huge one. Specially since the duration of expiation is a joke, we need being rebuffing continuosly if there are damage....but just we cant do that if we want heal or do damage while other healers can being keeping as many hots and heals they want.

Also out spells to place expiation are so weak, plea is a joke, radiance heal is patetic, cost a lot and only jump to 3...only left the shield. And on raid we cant spam the shadow mend because the mana cost. Also no real group heals, you must place a buff one by one and cast penance, so on random groups damage, usually when us place 5 buffs and cast penance, other healers surely already healed them.
This specially terrible on bosses where you must keep in movement all the boss at time all the group is takind damage. You only can keep them alive using plea and penance on boss and using the expiation (very weak for a 2 min CD since the shield is weak)

And the Light's Wrath is a joke as raid CD. It need a lot of preparation, so is useless vs "oh shit" moment. Even with a lot of expiations up, his healing is not sooo huge. And the barrier is very situational and requires all the raid place on the same place, while the other healers cds have no requirements.

Damn, i even see the discipline more a tank healer than a raid one, keeping the tank alive with shield and pasive damage healing on him. if someone suffer damage, plea on him and continue attacking the boss....meh

And they quit all out area damage skills and nerfed the dps trinkets...




Someone knows if they will buff disicpline on the incoming patch? or at least revert the trinket nerf?

[GT4]

Right... a context which isn't any more random than those numbers you allege are.

First off, I believe you meant "any less", not "any more". Otherwise your statement frankly doesn't make much sense in the context of this discussion.

Secondly, I really hope you're trolling and not that ignorant. The only way you can reasonably compare numbers in WoW (or anything else in life really) is to compare numbers retrieved under the same context, with the chosen contexts for which to compare numbers typically being practically relevant.

E.g. if you know a discipline priest in 850 gear with 20 traits and no exterior buffs does roughly 150k DPS without healing at all and zero DPS while spamhealing the tank (two extreme contexts), you know that realistically the number will be somewhere in between those two for any fight that doesn't have fight specific buffs/debuffs for that particular priest. Of course "between 0 and 150k" isn't particularly useful in most cases so you're probably better off looking at more specific contexts.

In any case, without the information of context, numbers are completely useless. A holy priest can tell you he does 200k DPS (with bloodlust while not healing) and a disc priest tells you he does 50k DPS (while spamhealing the tank the majority of the time). How does that help you comparing both? It doesn't because you still don't know how much a holy would do if he had to spamheal the tank and you still don't know how much a discipline would do if he didn't have to do so. If neither actually mentioned the context to begin with, you might even come to the conclusion "holy does more DPS in dungeons than discipline period" even though that's not even close to generally true in practice.

[Hodag]

So, here are my two cents.

Disc and Holy "numbers," whatever they may be, are both good. DPS wise, (not including trash), Disc will win out. HPS wise, who knows. I haven't played with any of the god-tier disc priests that keep posting on here, but I'm sure it's comparable.

My issue revolves around ideal and realized healing scenarios. In a raid, especially during progression, it won't be muscle-memory. It won't be mistake-free -- hardcore or not. People will stand in the bad. Melee will run out and spread the dot into ranged. Tanks will miss CD's, etc. When that happens, disc doesn't really have any "life saving" abilities. If a group of four in ranged gets smoked unexpectedly, you have to cast radiance and hope to god light's wrath is off CD and, even then, wait for the cast to complete to realize the healing. Or, you waste a few more GCD's in putting a shield up or, like many situations, you just spam shadowmend. If that same situation happens as holy, you hit the lowest with a serenity if they all won't die immediately, and sanctify the others followed by maybe a POH or 2; if they will all die due to ticking damage, screw it and rescue them with the instant sanctify. The holy toolkit just seems better implemented to me with an answer for every situation.

Last issue that doesn't get talked about a lot is when raid mechanics remove the ability to do sustained DPS on targets. Whether it be dealing with mechanics or moving from the bad, Disc is left with two spells: their shield and shadowmend, essentially. They are the only healer whose output will be suboptimal during those times. Depending on the fight, that could be exactly when you need the heals the most.

Just my thoughts on the spec.

EDIT: Also, Shadowmend is boring as hell. I'm not saying it's bad. It's fine and good, but it's so boring. If your damage can't cover it, just spam a single button. At least with Holy your flash of light is merely just a "builder" so-to-speak.

[Deleted]

Check out Indestructible (6\7 H) log

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bG21yNZwPtV6aFjc

Discipline (Bareturtle) is keeping up a good amount of healing\absorbing plus delivering pretty 2% of total raid damage.

This seems fair to me, and there is also another guild in the "top 10 heroic for the first night" that runs a Discipline Priest, with comparable performance.

[Simulacrum]

First off, I believe you meant "any less", not "any more". Otherwise your statement frankly doesn't make much sense in the context of this discussion.

Well, the point was that it doesn't matter if it "isn't" more or less random, because the point is that it isn't different. It's exactly the same, which is - not random.

Secondly, I really hope you're trolling and not that ignorant. The only way you can reasonably compare numbers in WoW (or anything else in life really) is to compare numbers retrieved under the same context, with the chosen contexts for which to compare numbers typically being practically relevant.

E.g. if you know a discipline priest in 850 gear with 20 traits and no exterior buffs does roughly 150k DPS without healing at all and zero DPS while spamhealing the tank (two extreme contexts), you know that realistically the number will be somewhere in between those two for any fight that doesn't have fight specific buffs/debuffs for that particular priest. Of course "between 0 and 150k" isn't particularly useful in most cases so you're probably better off looking at more specific contexts.

In any case, without the information of context, numbers are completely useless. A holy priest can tell you he does 200k DPS (with bloodlust while not healing) and a disc priest tells you he does 50k DPS (while spamhealing the tank the majority of the time). How does that help you comparing both? It doesn't because you still don't know how much a holy would do if he had to spamheal the tank and you still don't know how much a discipline would do if he didn't have to do so. If neither actually mentioned the context to begin with, you might even come to the conclusion "holy does more DPS in dungeons than discipline period" even though that's not even close to generally true in practice.

Right... and we know context; "average boss fights". Then anyone who weren't horribly autistic would be able to infer that this references "average boss fights" for the poster that poster is responding to. And they got a perfectly lucid response to that, because the parties involved understood what the other was talking about.

All of which is entirely besides the comment you made. Which incidentally was the only post in the thread that introduced random elements and unknown context.

[Goshko]

Check out Indestructible (6\7 H) log

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bG21yNZwPtV6aFjc

Discipline (Bareturtle) is keeping up a good amount of healing\absorbing plus delivering pretty 2% of total raid damage.

This seems fair to me, and there is also another guild in the "top 10 heroic for the first night" that runs a Discipline Priest, with comparable performance.

You know I've always said disc will be fine in raids, and still think so despite underwhelming results in the first raids, but you linking a log with him being behind the tank on both damage AND healing as an example for how disc is fine is simply too funny.

[Deleted]

You know I've always said disc will be fine in raids, and still think so despite underwhelming results in the first raids, but you linking a log with him being behind the tank on both damage AND healing as an example for how disc is fine is simply too funny.

Considering all other healers bar one are doing more or less the same, without the dmg bonus, I would say maybe the issue isn't the disc priest, but the tank hps :P. He looks better on some other fights than Xavius too. At the end of the day we compare healers with other healers, not with tanks with broken healing abilities. I see a healer that did 155k hps and 97 k dps, compared to 3 other healers that did 160-171k hps and no dps - I'd say it's not so bad.

[Goshko]

Considering all other healers bar one are doing more or less the same, without the dmg bonus, I would say maybe the issue isn't the disc priest, but the tank hps :P. He looks better on some other fights than Xavius too. At the end of the day we compare healers with other healers, not with tanks with broken healing abilities. I see a healer that did 155k hps and 97 k dps, compared to 3 other healers that did 160-171k hps and no dps - I'd say it's not so bad.

All true, log still very funny :P

[Deleted]

You know I've always said disc will be fine in raids, and still think so despite underwhelming results in the first raids, but you linking a log with him being behind the tank on both damage AND healing as an example for how disc is fine is simply too funny.

Hehe pal, that is misleadingly funny!

The Tank has an insane amount of APS (Absorb per Second) not HPS :-p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVR4DqAqKI check also this is a very interesting feedback for a different spot-healing style (the other style is more related to spread atonoment and burst healing, and it is doing good aswell)

[Goshko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVR4DqAqKI check also this is a very interesting feedback for a different spot-healing style (the other style is more related to spread atonoment and burst healing, and it is doing good aswell)

I did manage to test raiding a bit on the beta (not as much as I wanted mind you) and did something similar, but used radiance too and it didn't go well - oom too fast mainly, healing was fine. Will try going with just shadowmend and atonement. Nice to see someone else also takes Castigation though, it's getting annoying seeing people take Schism and then complain about mana problems.

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3372IY_CTg

Fun to watch. Same dude also has some heroic kills.