Ret: Haste is a lie?

[Monzsterr]

I've seen a few other folks bring this up, but I was simcrafting my paladin yesterday before slapping on my enchants last minute before raid. On pretty much every fight scenario with aoe or single target talents I get: versatility = crit > haste > mastery.
The haste value is generally only 3/4 that of crit and vers while mastery sits at less than 5/8th the value.
So, is haste a lie or am I relying too much on a sim program?

[Tonyman64]

What are you simming with and which talents do you have picked? I've been seeing haste>crit>versatility>mastery.

[Monzsterr]

ilvl 852
Crit 25.29%
Haste 15.42%
Mastery 27.25%
Versatility 8.81%

Single Target
FV
TFoJ
BoW
Crusade

AoE
FV
GJ
DH
DP

Using the latest SimC client and running the sims on of the several of the fight scenarios.
Both talent setups are giving close to the same weights. Crit and Vers around 7.5-7.9, haste at 6.0-6.2, mastery below 5.

[xxcloud417xx]

I'm personally at 30% Haste > 27% Crit with an 847 item level. I've been under the impression that Haste is good up to about 30% but then you want to get your crit up afterwards.

Talent setup once you have enough crit should still be

FV > TFoJ > VB (cuz you crit hard as fuck now) > Crusade

My sims were pretty much off by a tiny bit when I tried swapping between BoW and VB since my crit wasn't quite 30% yet, but I noticed that when I tweaked my crit to 30%+ Virtue's Blade outperforms Blade of Wrath due to you benefiting from the 3x Crit damage much more often.

This is all single-target obviously, I haven't really played around with an AoE build personally, as I find my AoE to be sufficient enough as it is. I try to focus more on Single-target since most boss fights benefit from stronger ST DPS.

-update-

I just reran my sim with the current amount of crit, and at 27% Virtue's Blade is a small increase over Blade of Wrath already pre-30%. It's roughly a 5k DPS gain in my current gear.

[Tonyman64]

Do you have any trinkets that benefit a lot from crit, Ursoc's Rending Paw comes to mind. It is odd the versatility is coming in so high though.

[randiz]

I'm in the same boat. Everyone talking about 30% haste, but when I geared for that (got to 28%), I didn't notice too much of an increase like I expected. I have AtA (took the long way), and my weapon is at 881 ilvl.

Using simc and askmrrobot, it told me to prioritize Crit and Vers, so I did. I'm now at 16% haste and am simming 257k dps on default simc options (patchwerk etc).

[Wi1kie]

Isn't the 30% soft Haste cap just about about maximum up-time on the Judgement debuff? Ignoring that, Crit is our go-to with Vers not far behind I thought...

[Haram]

I haven't done my raids yet, but on a patchwerk simulation and the general single target build selected (using FV over ES), Haste is only slightly valued higher than Vers/Crit, and this is me at about 14% haste. I would have assumed with Crusade selected, haste becomes immensely more valuable, but I guess not? Below are the screenshots of my armory (haven't bothered with overpriced enchants - not in a hard-progression guild) as well as my SimC results.

Advanced Character Armory: http://imgur.com/a/AkWE2

Talent Setup: http://imgur.com/a/GYQNf

Stat Priority (SimC, patchwerk, elite skill, 300s fight length): http://imgur.com/a/QntS6

- - - Updated - - -

To update: Is SimC off? I assumed the general priority list of haste to 30% and then vers/crit > mastery was a pretty default guideline. But it seems many people are getting stronger vers/crit priorities even at low haste (<20%)

[Consiliem]

To update: Is SimC off? I assumed the general priority list of haste to 30% and then vers/crit > mastery was a pretty default guideline. But it seems many people are getting stronger vers/crit priorities even at low haste (<20%)

What you're seeing is the fact that the relative weights of stats change as you lose/gain other stats. Next time you do a sim, check off to do a haste and a crit stat plot in options, if you don't already. I'd wager that you'll see that the crit plot's increase stays relatively level through increases, and haste jumps up and dips down repeatedly.

Basically what this means is that the value of haste jumps and dips depending on how much you are able to gain vs how much you currently have, and after a breakpoint the value drops quite sharply until you are able to make a change that gains enough haste that you get back onto the incline of the next breakpoint peak.

If you are simming that haste is weak for you right now, it sounds like you just happen to be at the peak of a breakpoint, and have to power through, even if currently the stat value is low, it's worth investing in up to the 25-30% range. Not to mention high 20%s in haste makes the spec feel SO much better imo. Crit is just a very steady stat, so the relative weight's value doesn't fluctuate and always appears strong.

Hope this makes sense.

[Monzsterr]

I only have the 840 strength+random stat trinket (have one of each stat, did the sims with haste equipped and then vers). and the spiked counter weight also at 840.
Overall ilvl is at 854

[Gloriandus]

I'm no great player, so my view carries far less weight than the theorycrafters/simmers here, but even at 30% haste everything feels a bit slow to me; sometimes I'll get some temporary haste buff and think, "That 50% haste feels amazing!" only to sadface when it expires.

Before I got my haste up , I was actually considering rolling a new class/spec because Ret felt so tedious and slow to get going. If it hits really hard, that's great, but from a fun gameplay perspective, slow and hard is not as fun as fast and not-as-hard.

[stolker]

What you're seeing is the fact that the relative weights of stats change as you lose/gain other stats. Next time you do a sim, check off to do a haste and a crit stat plot in options, if you don't already. I'd wager that you'll see that the crit plot's increase stays relatively level through increases, and haste jumps up and dips down repeatedly.

Basically what this means is that the value of haste jumps and dips depending on how much you are able to gain vs how much you currently have, and after a breakpoint the value drops quite sharply until you are able to make a change that gains enough haste that you get back onto the incline of the next breakpoint peak.

If you are simming that haste is weak for you right now, it sounds like you just happen to be at the peak of a breakpoint, and have to power through, even if currently the stat value is low, it's worth investing in up to the 25-30% range. Not to mention high 20%s in haste makes the spec feel SO much better imo. Crit is just a very steady stat, so the relative weight's value doesn't fluctuate and always appears strong.

Hope this makes sense.

You're right that the graph shows bumps, but compared to some other stats it is almost never actually above in terms weighting. Here's a screenshot comparing it to versatility, for example:

(apparently i'm not allowed to post links/images. if you want to see it, go to imgur and put DwVolPm at the end)

Maybe a bit hard to see, but apart from two points where it's slightly above versatility that are already behind me in terms of equipment, versatility seems to always be better by a decent margin. The distance doesn't look big here because of the large step size but it keeps versatility at like 6 weight vs hatse 4.5 all to the right, although at some points they approach equal value.

This is similar for all the other stats. Certainly at no point does it approach strength like suggested in some guides, instead strength actuall gets way more valuable later on for me in the graph.

I also think just from a nonsimulation standpoing haste doesn't make much sense. It boosts auto attack which does a relatively small amount of our overall damage anyways, and reduces GDC which has an effect that you can also achieve by just carefully scheduling your abilites better, such that you always use them right when they get on cooldown and never have 2 crusader strikes topped up, etc. Of course there are situations where finished cooldowns will overlap which definitely is helped by haste, but apparently the effect isn't that great.

[Consiliem]

You're right that the graph shows bumps, but compared to some other stats it is almost never actually above in terms weighting. Here's a screenshot comparing it to versatility, for example:

(apparently i'm not allowed to post links/images. if you want to see it, go to imgur and put DwVolPm at the end)

Maybe a bit hard to see, but apart from two points where it's slightly above versatility that are already behind me in terms of equipment, versatility seems to always be better by a decent margin. The distance doesn't look big here because of the large step size but it keeps versatility at like 6 weight vs hatse 4.5 all to the right, although at some points they approach equal value.

This is similar for all the other stats. Certainly at no point does it approach strength like suggested in some guides, instead strength actuall gets way more valuable later on for me in the graph.

I also think just from a nonsimulation standpoing haste doesn't make much sense. It boosts auto attack which does a relatively small amount of our overall damage anyways, and reduces GDC which has an effect that you can also achieve by just carefully scheduling your abilites better, such that you always use them right when they get on cooldown and never have 2 crusader strikes topped up, etc. Of course there are situations where finished cooldowns will overlap which definitely is helped by haste, but apparently the effect isn't that great.

Keep in mind that your current sim is only indicative of your current gearset. The graph showing the stat weights on the far right is slightly misleading; that is the benefit of that much haste/vers/etc at your CURRENT stat level. As soon as you change a single piece of gear, these all change. With respect to haste specifically, the more haste you get, the more valuable it becomes until 30% (breakpoints are still in effect though, of course). It's an overall change that you really can't see reflected in sims until you get to that point, and that's when haste and crit really start to scale well. This is what makes stat weights so complicated, the fact that they constantly change for every individual character and situation.

Also- the benefits from Haste are much bigger than just what you're describing. It lowers the GCD, and does increase auto attack damage (which is meh to begin with, like you said), but its main benefit is the fact that it also lowers the cooldown of our actual main rotational abilities, meaning you can cast more of them in the same amount of time, meaning more HoPo and directly more TVs, which is our major source of damage. It also decreases the cooldown of judgment, which means more uptime on the judgment debuff and makes target switching slightly less painful (currently it's my biggest conplaint about ret). Those are the main advantages that make it worthwhile, and they cap at 30% becausw that is when the judgment debuff uptime can reach 100%.

[Deleted]

As we get more gear, more of our damage is TV based, this only goes further with cloak legendary, ring legendary when you can wear two. Following on from this we have the Tier Set as well pushing it further assuming it doesnt change.

Haste simply builds holy power faster than anything else ofcourse, there really isnt an alternative to this.

[stolker]

Keep in mind that your current sim is only indicative of your current gearset. The graph showing the stat weights on the far right is slightly misleading; that is the benefit of that much haste/vers/etc at your CURRENT stat level. As soon as you change a single piece of gear, these all change. With respect to haste specifically, the more haste you get, the more valuable it becomes until 30% (breakpoints are still in effect though, of course). It's an overall change that you really can't see reflected in sims until you get to that point, and that's when haste and crit really start to scale well. This is what makes stat weights so complicated, the fact that they constantly change for every individual character and situation.

Also- the benefits from Haste are much bigger than just what you're describing. It lowers the GCD, and does increase auto attack damage (which is meh to begin with, like you said), but its main benefit is the fact that it also lowers the cooldown of our actual main rotational abilities, meaning you can cast more of them in the same amount of time, meaning more HoPo and directly more TVs, which is our major source of damage. It also decreases the cooldown of judgment, which means more uptime on the judgment debuff and makes target switching slightly less painful (currently it's my biggest conplaint about ret). Those are the main advantages that make it worthwhile, and they cap at 30% becausw that is when the judgment debuff uptime can reach 100%.

Oh, so it does reduce cooldown? Is the total cooldown (cooldown of skill) + GCD? Or is it just a pala-specific thing that it reduces the actual cooldown?

[OrcsRLame]

This is why you should always sim your own character, every time you get an upgrade. Your own character is always going to differ vastly from a default sim profile.

[ThePants999]

Mid-gearing, I simmed to check I was on the right path and got the "standard" haste>crit>vers>mast ranking, and plots showed it would stay that way for a fair while. Once I'd got most of my gear together, though (~22% haste unbuffed), I checked again - I'm now crit=vers>mast>haste :-( Strength is low value, too, crit+vers are 84% of strength. This isn't just a breakpoint - plots show this ranking pretty consistently up to +2000 stats, though beyond +2000, haste overtakes mastery again. Still, looks like crit+vers are the way to go for me.

(Talents: FV, TFoJ, VB, Crusade)

[Rorschachs]

Well obviously Crusade devalues haste as you easily reach the %30 breakpoint with the buff. So gearing for haste is better if you are running DP instead.

[Consiliem]

Oh, so it does reduce cooldown? Is the total cooldown (cooldown of skill) + GCD? Or is it just a pala-specific thing that it reduces the actual cooldown?

It is paladin specific, we have a passive for it that lowers gcd and actual cooldown.

@ThePants999: it is still a breakpoint. Sims change with every gear change, stat values fluctuate as you gain and lose different stats. With those changes, that plot will change as well. What you're seeing is that a single upgrade of 2000 of a specific stat currently holds those weights, but as you get those stats bit by bit the plots you're seeing will dance around.

@Rorschachs technically yes, Crusade devalues haste to a point. But the 30% haste breakpoint doesn't mean that haste stops being useful, only that judgment uptime is 100% available. Once you have the artifact traits that buff Crusade, it becomes extremely strong and in most places overtakes DP. DP still shines in consistent AoE, but Crusade wins out in ST atm for me by a long shot, and I'm at 27% haste.

[ThePants999]

There isn't all that much interaction between our stats, though. There is between mastery and haste, no doubt, but with mastery consistently being poor I don't care. Getting more crit, haste or versatility doesn't really affect the value of the other two.