Post-nerf Outlaw retune needed

[Xanatu]

I don't think they promised you would not go from first to last, just that they would focus on buffing the bottoms more than nerfing the tops (giggity). I could be wrong cus I don't have the quote on hand but that was what I took from it.

Outlaw got the short end of that in both regards still.

[RobertoCarlos]

I don't think they promised you would not go from first to last, just that they would focus on buffing the bottoms more than nerfing the tops (giggity). I could be wrong cus I don't have the quote on hand but that was what I took from it.

Ian hazzicosta's directly said in one of the developer q&a leading up to legion if there were out-liner specs they may bring them down to the other specs but were more likely to buff up the other specs not nerf them to the ground. Because people were worried about artifact power commitment, and they were right again and blizzard are just laughing their way to the bank.

And the big problem imo is outlaw is only an out-liner with RNG

[Afrospinach]

They need to fix RTB as well.. Nothing should be so fucking random. It's too much RNG all the time and i would rather have it be a set #of buffs everytime than this crap. It's also hard to get a good fix on Outlaw DPS because it is so random with rolling the bones all the time.. i dont like it and have been putting points into Assassination because it seems Outlaw was worth the bad RTB mechanic but now they lost dps and its not worth it anymore.

I think what they need to do with RTB is have two buckets of buffs, 1 utility and 1 big dps increases, so you always have 2 buffs minimum. The spec can feel so flat footed if you don't get the right buff, not even talking dps. 6 buffs is completely frenetic, sitting on true bearing alone is like wearing concrete shoes. I would rather then enhance the spec back up in this manor over giving us more damage on particular abilities.

[Hctaz]

They need to fix RTB as well.. Nothing should be so fucking random. It's too much RNG all the time and i would rather have it be a set #of buffs everytime than this crap. It's also hard to get a good fix on Outlaw DPS because it is so random with rolling the bones all the time.. i dont like it and have been putting points into Assassination because it seems Outlaw was worth the bad RTB mechanic but now they lost dps and its not worth it anymore.

RTB is a horrible idea. Look at the variance on sims for Outlaw. Your maximum dps should not be 100k dps higher than your average. Like sure your dps will usually average out... but in theory if you get absolutely perfect RNG you will pull 100k more dps than if you get average RNG. And your shit RNG is pretty low as well... the variance is too high.

[TheRealTish]

I don't think they promised you would not go from first to last, just that they would focus on buffing the bottoms more than nerfing the tops (giggity). I could be wrong cus I don't have the quote on hand but that was what I took from it.

They did actually. almost word for word say; In the case a class is performing a large margin better than the others, we will bring the other specs up so that the best spec is still best by a small margin"

I'm at work so im trying to find the q and a

[Rixxis]

RTB is a horrible idea. Look at the variance on sims for Outlaw. Your maximum dps should not be 100k dps higher than your average. Like sure your dps will usually average out... but in theory if you get absolutely perfect RNG you will pull 100k more dps than if you get average RNG. And your shit RNG is pretty low as well... the variance is too high.

I think the idea can be fun and make the spec interesting but the problems are:

1) Buffs are wildly varied in damage increase. You can't compare Jolly Roger to True Bearing, for instance.
2) Rolling 1 buff versus 6 is way too different. Perhaps they should cap it at 3 or 4 and reduce the variance in probability of rolling each, but of course if you get Grand Melee versus all 6 buffs the difference is going to be enormous.

If they kept the randomness of the ability but evened out the variances it would be fine, I think. I kinda liked the idea of having different buffs that make the spec feel different throughout a fight, they just made it too punishing or too good at times.

[Dryzz]

I made a post long time ago on Mmochampion and Forum Mod close it for trolling. post name Outlaw nerf incoming......lot of people blame me for bad attitude,they say It's only a PTR it's only a fix,u don't know what u are talking about....well I was Right and it would be nice to have an apology from The people that call me Troll.

They did actually. almost word for word say; In the case a class is performing a large margin better than the others, we will bring the other specs up so that the best spec is still best by a small margin"

Well once again blizzard stab is player. what a surprise. i am pretty sure we can only get this and go on,change spec and pray they will not nerf The new spec once again in the next hotfix weave.
Blizzard certainly do not will come back on their feet.

[Zabatakis]

RTB is a horrible idea. Look at the variance on sims for Outlaw. Your maximum dps should not be 100k dps higher than your average. Like sure your dps will usually average out... but in theory if you get absolutely perfect RNG you will pull 100k more dps than if you get average RNG. And your shit RNG is pretty low as well... the variance is too high.

This is your opinion tho. You have 2 specs that are not that way on a rogue if you don't want to play a gambler. For those that want to, outlaw is there. Heck even if you like everything about outlaw except rtb you can get SnD

[uniquesnowflakename]

Thing is, they're probably going to end up nerfing Sub as well. Especially since it's now good at both ST and AoE, which is apparently viewed as a mortal sin if it's a rogue spec doing it even by other rogues. They've been so all over the place with the rogue nerfs/buffs since prepatch that I don't think any spec is safe for the next few months, which really sucks because the first few months are when AP sink is going to hurt the most. I think they need to abandon the notion of Outlaw being "the AoE spec" just because Combat was for so many years. I said it before, but having to spec-swap constantly when we're now required to spend tons of time grinding AP to unlock a spec's full potential is shitty.

Out of curiosity, why is everyone jumping ship to Sub when Assassination is parsing so much higher in most the logs? Is it because of Sub scaling better in Nighthold gear? Because that seems very likely to get changed sooner or later; Blizz has proven they don't like disparities between our specs and that's a pretty large one.

[Dryzz]

Out of curiosity, why is everyone jumping ship to Sub when Assassination is parsing so much higher in most the logs? Is it because of Sub scaling better in Nighthold gear? Because that seems very likely to get changed sooner or later; Blizz has proven they don't like disparities between our specs and that's a pretty large one.

Blizzard only proved that don't want rogue to be Top DPS over their dear mage and over Kid trap DH on AoE...But i agree Rogue now have a Big targhet over their head and we don't know when the next nerf is comin...play rogue in legion is like Hit a 2WW bomb with and Hammer..u don't know if it will blow or not

[Xanatu]

I think the idea can be fun and make the spec interesting but the problems are:

1) Buffs are wildly varied in damage increase. You can't compare Jolly Roger to True Bearing, for instance.
2) Rolling 1 buff versus 6 is way too different. Perhaps they should cap it at 3 or 4 and reduce the variance in probability of rolling each, but of course if you get Grand Melee versus all 6 buffs the difference is going to be enormous.

If they kept the randomness of the ability but evened out the variances it would be fine, I think. I kinda liked the idea of having different buffs that make the spec feel different throughout a fight, they just made it too punishing or too good at times.

The DPS different from buff to buff isn't all that extreme though. True bearing as a single is the weakest, it's only good when paired. Grand melee, which is often crapped on, is actually our 3rd strongest single. I don't really have a problem with the current playstyle as frustrating as it is sometimes. We were having a lot more fun when Run Through was doing massive damage. I think it's mostly numbers at this point, for me at least.

[SSJones]

Out of curiosity, why is everyone jumping ship to Sub when Assassination is parsing so much higher in most the logs? Is it because of Sub scaling better in Nighthold gear? Because that seems very likely to get changed sooner or later; Blizz has proven they don't like disparities between our specs and that's a pretty large one.

Jumping ship because it is a lot lower than nighthold gear. It pulls even with ST in the 860's, and is way ahead of it on AoE.
You can check the most recent sim results in the spreadsheet listed inthe first post of the stickied simcraft thread.

Relevant portion is that T19 Heroic gear has Sub and Assassination in a dead heat for ST, with Outlaw 20k behind. While Asassination stays ahead on fights with constant cleave, Sub is way, way higher on fights with periodic adds (Like many of the EN fights) and is well ahead of Outlaw on those fights as well.

So basically, for current raiding content, where there is no 3 boss council fight where you cleave them all for long periods of time, Sub becomes the best choice for both ST and AoE - and does this at the Heroic gear level, not the Mythic.

[Thundermoose]

I think it's worth tweeting @Warcraftdevs about this (politely and concisely) to try to make it as public as possible. Anything along the lines of "Outlaw went first to last, were promised specs were safe from this, any retune thoughts?"

https://player.twitch.tv/?video=v84480726

21:30 - Just to make sure he doesn't try and weasel out.

[Kalador]

Outlaw nerf where right on target... All 3 specs are now viable witch is great and what should be every rogue wish. All 3 specs have different niche but they are all more than viable.

[Belenath]

I think the idea can be fun and make the spec interesting but the problems are:

1) Buffs are wildly varied in damage increase. You can't compare Jolly Roger to True Bearing, for instance.
2) Rolling 1 buff versus 6 is way too different. Perhaps they should cap it at 3 or 4 and reduce the variance in probability of rolling each, but of course if you get Grand Melee versus all 6 buffs the difference is going to be enormous.

If they kept the randomness of the ability but evened out the variances it would be fine, I think. I kinda liked the idea of having different buffs that make the spec feel different throughout a fight, they just made it too punishing or too good at times.

I'm still surprised at the noticeable lack of useful traits in the Outlaw artifact tree. Perhaps they could replace one of the fairly useless ones with something in regards to Loaded Dice to help deal with the randomness of Roll the Bones. Maybe a 3 point trait with each increasing the chance of Rolling 2(or more buffs) with the 3rd point guaranteeing a double buff roll.

It should fit with the class fantasy, and let's be honest. We're rogues. We're not afraid to stack the odds in our favor through underhanded means.

[Dryzz]

Outlaw nerf where right on target... All 3 specs are now viable witch is great and what should be every rogue wish. All 3 specs have different niche but they are all more than viable.

it was completly out of target.Starting legion they say :"we will no hard nerf overperforming spec we will tune up the other viable spec for a class"

Well they stab us and they miss the target. They will have Hit the target if they have just tuned up sin and sub

[Xanatu]

Outlaw nerf where right on target... All 3 specs are now viable witch is great and what should be every rogue wish. All 3 specs have different niche but they are all more than viable.

Actually we're back to only 1 viable spec, it's now sub. Outlaw is 100% useless without more tuning. There is NO reason to play this spec right now other than the fact that we're kind of stuck with it for EN.

[uniquesnowflakename]

Jumping ship because it is a lot lower than nighthold gear. It pulls even with ST in the 860's, and is way ahead of it on AoE.
You can check the most recent sim results in the spreadsheet listed inthe first post of the stickied simcraft thread.

Relevant portion is that T19 Heroic gear has Sub and Assassination in a dead heat for ST, with Outlaw 20k behind. While Asassination stays ahead on fights with constant cleave, Sub is way, way higher on fights with periodic adds (Like many of the EN fights) and is well ahead of Outlaw on those fights as well.

So basically, for current raiding content, where there is no 3 boss council fight where you cleave them all for long periods of time, Sub becomes the best choice for both ST and AoE - and does this at the Heroic gear level, not the Mythic.

I get that, I'm just asking why people assume Sub doesn't already have a target on its back. I know it starts pulling ahead sooner than NH, but by the time NH gear drops it's so far ahead - on both ST and AoE - that it's almost certainly going to get the same treatment Outlaw just did. NH is obviously a ways off, maybe long enough for hardcore raiders to 100% two weapons and mitigate the threat somewhat, but it seems like everyone else is just deferring disappointment on another, much larger AP sink.

The more we go on, the more I think it'll become apparent what a pain in the ass having to level three weapons as DPS is going to be. None of it will matter much in a year when we've got all traits, but it's going to suck leading up to that. Especially for mythic raiders who are expected to change spec every time Blizzard nerfs one.

[shaunika123]

RTB is a horrible idea. Look at the variance on sims for Outlaw. Your maximum dps should not be 100k dps higher than your average. Like sure your dps will usually average out... but in theory if you get absolutely perfect RNG you will pull 100k more dps than if you get average RNG. And your shit RNG is pretty low as well... the variance is too high.

speak for yourself

RtB is one of the most fun and engaging mechanics, rogues ever had imo
it kinda makes me sad i have to go back to sub which seems so much paler in comparison and ive been maining sub for the better part of the last 11 years

[SSJones]

I get that, I'm just asking why people assume Sub doesn't already have a target on its back.

Fair enough, but I think if it has a target on its back we'll know within a couple weeks. Not when Nighthold comes out. Either way it doesn't help people just hitting the 860's and figuring out how to best help their mythic team for progression, who went hard into Outlaw for just that reason.