[TV] Westworld

[Elim Garak]

Yeah, I was too scratching my head how come it took them 4 seasons and god knows how many years (in universe) to finally figure out that their skeletons can be made with armored and durable parts that can withstand bullets - and then that one robot kills itself.

[Ophenia]

Yeah, I was too scratching my head how come it took them 4 seasons and god knows how many years (in universe) to finally figure out that their skeletons can be made with armored and durable parts that can withstand bullets - and then that one robot kills itself.

Well, I was always under the impression that their skeleton was "bulletproof" (or quite resistant at least) since the beginning. We see Dolores take quite a lot of bullets that don't bother her more than that after she reached the end of the Labyrinth, hinting that the fact they suffer/die from wounds is only part of their programming. For example end of S02 when Bernard/Dolores/William are at the entrance of the Forge and William shoots at Dolores. Bernard took a shot from Caleb's daughter right in the chest in this season and didn't even flinch - just for him to be seen agonizing after the same shot from William in the Tower one or two episodes later.
But at the same time, there are some cases where they're nearly dying from random shots or stabs in the stomach even though they definitely shouldn't.

[Elim Garak]

Exactly. No consistency.

[Relikk]

Season 4 was unadulterated balderdash. The writing was amateur hour stuff. Easily one of the worst seasons of big budget TV I've ever seen.

[Koriani]

See - I enjoyed Season 4 waaaayyyy more than Season 3 and felt it "brought the series back around" to something more logical and easier to make sense of, then everything in Season 3.

After the first couple of episodes in Season 3 I felt I spent most of the season just trying to figure out who was who (which twin/clone/re-rebodied former-dead-character/Delores brain was on screen) and that took so much energy I could barely follow the rest of the plot outside of "AI wants to kill all humans and replace them."

Season 4 brought the plot back to making more sense to me and, while I agree not as good as the first two seasons by a longshot, much better than 3 and actually makes me curious for Season 5 (and I'm thinking 5 will be last season).

I also thought SOME of the writing in Season 4 was (again) more on part with Season 1/2 especially when it came to the "voice overs" of philosophical musings/points and felt the larger philosophical questions the show is attempting to handle (idea of Man as Creator, whether one's creation can surpass/evolve past the limitations of their creators/coding, etc) was much more evident and actually being illustrated. Philosophical points that I thought were just lost or muddied in Season 3 - the"bigger thought experiment" musings I felt WW was strong with out of the gate. At least as far as TV shows go - bigger interesting questions I liked seeing addressed at all in this show.

At the end of Season 3 I wasn't even sure I gave two shits about seeing what they did with Season 4 (much less beyond) but I'm glad I gave it a chance to "save itself" because I certainly enjoyed 4 and, like I said before, looking forward to Season 5 where I hope it stays more grounded and less "How many Delores-clones are there? Everyone's a Cylon!" (how Season 3 felt to me- lol)

And I even thought Episode 4 or 5 (can't remember now, heh) was not only one of the strongest episodes of the last two entire seasons, but was a better Matrix IV than Matrix IV even tried to be. (The one hour episode, standing on its own, being a better version of what Matrix IV should have been lol). I realize that's not high praise for the episode - but just meaning I got more out of the philosophical musings/points in that one episode that was more to what I expected Matrix IV to be about, and was a better matrix sequel all by itself.)

Just surprised people liked it LESS than the mess I felt Season 3 was. =D

[Ophenia]

At the end of Season 3 I wasn't even sure I gave two shits about seeing what they did with Season 4 (much less beyond) but I'm glad I gave it a chance to "save itself" because I certainly enjoyed 4 and, like I said before, looking forward to Season 5 where I hope it stays more grounded and less "How many Delores-clones are there? Everyone's a Cylon!" (how Season 3 felt to me- lol)

I re-watched S03 and even if it was quite weak overall (compared to S01 and parts of S02), I had the same feeling as when I watched it initially ; the last episode was good enough (imo) to redeem the rest.

I'm also looking forward to S05 but you're in for a hard time if you don't want everyone to be Dolores. Because as far as I understood from Dolores' speech in this season's finale, she'll basically recreate everyone from memories of them in the Sublime (to echo with Akecheta's "You live only as long as the last person who remembers you" quote)
I don't think much will happen in S05 in the physical world, even if the physical world was not so much developed in S04 - is everyone dead or have we only witness this shit happening in one city and a huge chunk of "rebels" still exist somewhere ? It definitely didn't feel so

[Koriani]

I re-watched S03 and even if it was quite weak overall (compared to S01 and parts of S02), I had the same feeling as when I watched it initially ; the last episode was good enough (imo) to redeem the rest.

Its a bit too "soon" since my first s3 watch to re-watch it again, but at least someone besides me and hubby was confused about all that 'cloning' and character switching. I do remember thinking the season made "more sense" and was easier to follow in the last few episodes, but I fully acknowledge part of that reason may also have been the confusion over characters/clones/rebirths in the first half of the season. The fact that one of the new "important" characters we were introduced to (but was only included in s3) was one of a set of clone/twins (but I didn't realize /that/ for several episodes) didn't help. A 2nd watch I'm sure would make the season work better - but that will have to be a few years from now. I'm just not one of those people that can re-watch shows/series "soon" after the first watch (same way for replaying games).

I'm also looking forward to S05 but you're in for a hard time if you don't want everyone to be Dolores. Because as far as I understood from Dolores' speech in this season's finale, she'll basically recreate everyone from memories of them in the Sublime (to echo with Akecheta's "You live only as long as the last person who remembers you" quote)
I don't think much will happen in S05 in the physical world, even if the physical world was not so much developed in S04 - is everyone dead or have we only witness this shit happening in one city and a huge chunk of "rebels" still exist somewhere ? It definitely didn't feel so

Yeah, I the show just does not help itself in that "confusion" over events - does it? (lol)

And its not that I MIND "everyone being Delores" I was more bothered by the lack of clarity, from the jump, about that reality. On top of them not being merely "memories from Delores about those characters", but the actual "fully formed/memory mind-balls" of Delores being put in other Androids that then looked like Other Established Characters (rather than looking like Delores, or looking like a new character instead.)

And I'm not saying I didn't misunderstand Season 4 - because this discussion might show that I indeed did NOT follow Season 4 like I thought I did (HA) - BUT, in discussion of your clarification point on upcoming direction of Season 5. My understanding was that "The Sublime" was the running harddrive (for lack of a better term) of the world setup and then left behind for the AI Characters at the end of Season 2 (that all the AI "Minds" moved over to live in and has been running along ever since) - that has remained "unaffected" by what was going on "in the real world reality" for Seasons 3/4.

So rather than it being "everyone as Delores remembers and recreated them" but it more being "unspoiled AI from the previous AI-Lands we left behind", still out living their lives there (in the Sublime) as they never came 'here' to the "real world". (i.e. Where Maeve's AI daughter has been waiting this whole time - not sure if she's same-age or the hard drive kept their world still cycling). Basically providing an "AI control group" from the experiment that failed in the actual real world; where now some evolved (or just more experienced?Wiser?) version of "Delores" can try, one more time, to see if creations can evolve past their creator and actually SURVIVE past the species-doom-point.

And I did wonder if ANYTHING was going to be happening in the "real physical world" in Season 5, as the way *I* Understood that Finale - the "entire real world" Is suiciding itself, minus the 10% or less of humans who avoided the "AI Mind Control Flies". That it was not one city - either with Season 4 or Season 5 - this was the fate of the entire world; the show just only shows us one particular place. Humans have/had failed, time and again, to show they can 'evolve' past the limitations of their own species to not self-destruct in some fashion and, even when the "AI Took Over" to prevent that fate, still couldn't escape it and started taking the AI down with them. So the AI are 'letting' (assisting) the humans finish themselves off in the world (Season 4 finale) and the last few working Androids are trying ONE MORE TIME (with the last control population they have left) in Season 5 to see if they can create/evolve a species that moves beyond humanity's need for violence/self-destruction.

That's what *I* took that ending and setup for Season 5 to mean. That for all intents and purposes, the humans in the physical world are 'done' as a species. Whatever numbers are surviving that weren't mind-controlled already aren't in numbers that can realistically 'repopulate' the world and save humans from extinction. They will subsist in their final days until they are done. Androids don't care about them anymore, that's a dead-end/lost cause. The Androids (Delores only?) are going back to the unspoiled-lands of The Sublime and hoping to live out their existence/thrive/evolve beyond in THAT reality.

Now maybe the show will try to make the case that humanity, in Season 5, is surviving in enough numbers to repopulate and not just go extinct and we'll have a plot where either these humans are trying to 'unplug' the Sublime and resume Humanity's Number One Spot on the planet (And the androids are again fighting to exist at all in the real, or virtual, world) -- OR -- the Sublime Androids will try more to thrive together/at peace with these leftover humans rather than just taking over as "superior creations" (because they learned that didn't work) and that's the plot that will try to move forward. Not real sure.

Course I may have misunderstood any big chunk in all of this plot and my "understanding" at the end of 4 going into 5 could be way off! The way this show unfolds it wouldn't surprise me if I missed, or just misunderstood, some big point in there. =D

[Relikk]

https://tvline.com/2022/11/04/westwo...-season-5-hbo/

Aaaaaaaaaand it's gone. Hardly surprising after that absolutely woeful fourth season.

[The Oblivion]

https://tvline.com/2022/11/04/westwo...-season-5-hbo/

Aaaaaaaaaand it's gone. Hardly surprising after that absolutely woeful fourth season.

yeah a terrible season so long after season 3 crushed the show, i couldnt even remember wtf was going on when it finally came out, and once i did, it sucked.

[Nerovar]

Westworld is an interesting example of a good piece of media that was stretched way beyond the limits of its creative impulses. Must suck to have to keep working on a show like that after you've already pushed your ideas to a satisfying conclusion in season 1.

[Ophenia]

Regardless of the quality of S04, that’s a dick move tbh. Season 5 would have wrapped it all, so at least we’d have gotten the full serie. Now it ends… abruptly.

God I fucking hate Series nowadays. Everything is cancelled or thrown to trash as soon as audience drops a bit.

[PACOX]

I forgot season 4 even came out. Season 3 was so hard to get through, felt like the show lost itself and started to smell its own farts. I think the decision stems from the performance of 3 and 4 combined. See that season 3 was on a decline, still trending down during 4, just let the show die. Its a very expensive production that people aren't really messing with anymore.

[Fabinas]

I forgot season 4 even came out. Season 3 was so hard to get through, felt like the show lost itself and started to smell its own farts. I think the decision stems from the performance of 3 and 4 combined. See that season 3 was on a decline, still trending down during 4, just let the show die. Its a very expensive production that people aren't really messing with anymore.

Adding to this, it stopped being "Westworld" the moment it wormed its way out of the parks. Plus, the switch host body was over done and ended up as plot armor for the AI's in pearls.

[fakaroonie]

Season 4 was as good as S1, you just have to have the patience to sit through S3, which was meh, but whatever, I've been through so many cancelled shows that it feels normal somehow.

[SavoirFaire]

The bigger concern is the guy running HBO seems not to understand HBO. He was quoted as saying that he didn't want to keep funding expensive shows that draw a smaller audience than Big Bang Theory re-runs... that's a big, big uh oh.

Ouch I can only hope that is taken out of context, but I certainly can see it. I’m getting s4 doom patrol, and young justice s5 isn’t officially dead so I’m content.

Westworld and raised by wolves both had strong s1s and went off the rails (wolves faster than WW). My hope is the new guy is pushing for more shows that seem like 3-5 coherent seasons, and not a kick ass season 1 that people have to figure out how to drag out a few seasons more. It’s practically a meme that you can’t count on a streaming show to do a solid beginning, middle, and end across seasons.

[Ivanstone]

My hope is the new guy is pushing for more shows that seem like 3-5 coherent seasons, and not a kick ass season 1 that people have to figure out how to drag out a few seasons more.

He won’t be. He’s Discovery’s CEO. He wants cheep reality TV shit.

[Nerovar]

Regardless of the quality of S04, that’s a dick move tbh. Season 5 would have wrapped it all, so at least we’d have gotten the full serie. Now it ends… abruptly.

God I fucking hate Series nowadays. Everything is cancelled or thrown to trash as soon as audience drops a bit.

It went from 12 million in season 1 to 4 million in season 4. That's more than "a bit".

[Koriani]

What's really - odd to me (but maybe not to Hollywood types) is that I've read that the 5 major stars of the show are STILL GETTING PAID For Season 5 even though its now getting cancelled.

That fact, of the main characters still getting paid for a season they are no longer doing - is PART of what's behind the "Sign up to save the show" movement by fans, to try and get HBO to let them finish with what was already the last season.

This move would have made more sense to me after s3 that was such a struggle. As I really liked season 4 and thought the show was coming back strong again, I hate that we don't get the final resolution to the whole damn thing. :/ That always sucks. So close - but so far.

[Koriani]

Well that's...really fast?

https://ew.com/tv/westworld-leaving-hbo-max/

Just posted to update everyone on this! If you or friends were 'waiting' to see the last season, or any of it at all, might want to do that sooner rather than later.

I've read several articles about this and got no real timeline for WHEN it will be yanked, but its on the slate. This particular article mentions it could be available on another platform in the future (obviously), but that of course is a unknown right now.

Just seems...very odd. Of all the shows to try and save money on - the one that just a few years ago was considered a 'tent pole' success seems like NOT one of the first one's you'd cut just yet. But hey...I'm not in the industry! =D

[JDL49]

Not odd if their financial position on the WB poriton of the company is as bad as I think it is.
More and more it looks like WB was counting on getting lots of cash either from or thru AT&T
and AT&T wasn't having it.

Further, using 20/20 hindsight losing a years worth of box office revenue in order to jump start
their streamer was a mistake. They clearly lack the cash to do the projects like Westworld that
they had planned

I believe their presumption was that the world market could stand three 'American' streamers but
no more than that and if they waited that opportunity would be gone. One upshot of that is that
they got just big enough (imo) to stop any of the others (Paramount or Universal) from going at
this in a major way but no big enough to play in the majors.

- - - Updated - - -

Just seems...very odd. Of all the shows to try and save money on - the one that just a few years ago was considered a 'tent pole' success seems like NOT one of the first one's you'd cut just yet. But hey...I'm not in the industry! =D

Not at all odd if their financial position on the WB poriton of the company is as bad as I think it is.
More and more it looks like WB was counting on getting lots of cash either from or thru AT&T and
AT&T wasn't having it.

Further, using 20/20 hindsight losing a years worth of box office revenue in order to jump start
their streamer was a mistake. They clearly lack the cash to do the projects like Westworld that
they had planned

I believe their presumption was that the world market could stand three 'American' streamers but
no more than that and if they waited that opportunity would be gone. One upshot of that is that
they got just big enough (imo) to stop any of the others (Paramount or Universal) from going at
this in a major way but no big enough to play in the majors. YMMV.