1. #2521
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Would a brand new car manufacturer be excused for not having seatbelts when it took over 30 years for the first ones to appear as a factory option?
    Yes. Not for seatbelts but car manufactures often cut features from low end models. Seatbelts are mandated by law which is why it is a poor comparison since very little game design is required by law to exist (some is required not to exist like loot boxes in some areas). For example the cheapest ford maverick does not have power seats even though my 2002 van had them. There is should be some room given on release of a new game and holding every developer to veteran products sucks. Should some basic lessons be learned? For sure.

    New World is average. It does some things good, it does some things bad. What will matter is how quickly they fix all of the bugs and other issues and how quickly they create new content.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #2522
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Basically yes as not much has changed from Alpha 2020 -> Beta 2021 -> launch besides the addition of more copy & paste content.
    Yeah, it was mostly rhetorical , i really wish people would stop being so simple and accept they will never get the same feeling they got out of WoW 15 years ago, it gets exhausting watching so many games fail because people game hop and destroy them.

    And so many identity issues with every single MMO coming out, simply wanting to get as much $$ from hungry MMO players searching for their dose of nostalgia.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-10-15 at 03:28 PM.

  3. #2523
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    i really wish people would stop being so simple and accept they will never get the same feeling they got out of WoW 15 years ago, it gets exhausting watching so many games fail because people game hop and destroy them.
    I've gotten plenty of repeat "new and novel" feelings from single player RPGs I've experienced. Both before and after skyrim. Granted, it's been a few years since anything delivered in that market. Cyberpunk was my most recent hopeful, but the initial shitshow and the price of new graphics cards made me decide to wait for "GOTY" steam sale in the near future.

    I digress. There are plenty of genres that manage to recapture and properly stroke ye olde nostalgia feels. I fail to see why an MMO can't, with the exception that no one seems to want to make games the way wow is run any more (probably because everyone is focused on bleeding the gambling-addicted asian market dry with gachas).

  4. #2524
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    it gets exhausting watching so many games fail because people game hop and destroy them.
    Ah, of course, it's the players who are wrong.

    *insert out of touch Skinner meme here*
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  5. #2525
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I've gotten plenty of repeat "new and novel" feelings from single player RPGs I've experienced. Both before and after skyrim. Granted, it's been a few years since anything delivered in that market. Cyberpunk was my most recent hopeful, but the initial shitshow and the price of new graphics cards made me decide to wait for "GOTY" steam sale in the near future.

    I digress. There are plenty of genres that manage to recapture and properly stroke ye olde nostalgia feels. I fail to see why an MMO can't, with the exception that no one seems to want to make games the way wow is run any more (probably because everyone is focused on bleeding the gambling-addicted asian market dry with gachas).
    Dont get me wrong, it all depends on the player, if its people seeking that leveling experience where you take 1.5 years to do what you are supposed to do in the first month of the game, props to you for wanting that experience, ESO/FFXIV/GW2 all have that in terms of storylines and no actual progression in the endgame part, or very limited, which is okay.

    The problem comes when people cant understand like with FFXIV, they are playing the 7 years after result, it failed and closed down once, and now it gained momentum cause people need to shit on WoW, gave it a chance while doing so, and they found something they were looking for.

    New World of course wont be fulfilling, its a game from one of the worst capitalistic companies in the world, in its embryo stage with a massive change of content because it was empty as hell, expecting people to just PvP in 2020 about factions and building houses? What.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Ah, of course, it's the players who are wrong.

    *insert out of touch Skinner meme here*
    But it is the players who are wrong as i was answering the other dude, expecting multiple years of whatever content they wish for out of a newly released game is getting boring, literally the same since like 2010 or so.

    No, there wont be a game that can compete with the big names on the get go, the $$ and dev experience dont exist.

    Like me, i forgot GW2 exists, the 2-3 years ago, bought both expansions and the Living World etc, got myself tons of story content cause that period of life i was in the mood for that, but it was content already 2 years old and the then released second expansion that gave me so much.

    Its the same with the Battlefield players expecting bug-free BF2042 release and proper Anti-hack, after half a decade of no such thing.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-10-15 at 04:37 PM.

  6. #2526
    Quote Originally Posted by Takure View Post
    I don't know about that, WoW was pretty successful in the beginning because the developers stayed true to their design philosophy. Could argue that catering to their ever changing player base was the cause (or at least a cause) of their downward trend.
    Wow was successful in the beginning for many reasons, one of the main ones being that it actually had an end-game and they further expanded upon it giving players more to do. Not having an end-game is suicide imo, but it's their game and money.

  7. #2527
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Yeah, sorry, no. Using release timeframes from other products is never an excuse for a lack of content. Amazon has had 15 years of WoW to look at, it's had 20 years of Runescape to look at.

    Would a brand new car manufacturer be excused for not having seatbelts when it took over 30 years for the first ones to appear as a factory option?
    Then your logic is flawed cuz the people at RuneScape should have looked at Tibia and Ultima online which had plenty of content at the time of runescapes release... its a great foundation for whats to come just as runescape classic set its foundation. Nega-Nancys dont be so negative.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    How the fuck is this trolling?

    Discussing moderation is against the rules. Infracted.

  8. #2528
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    But it is the players who are wrong as i was answering the other dude, expecting multiple years of whatever content they wish for out of a newly released game is getting boring, literally the same since like 2010 or so.
    Players are not wrong, you're talking like some detached Blizz exec. Imagine that in 2021 players expect a tad more than baseline crap when you have hundreds other games around with great stuff to offer.

    This complete out of touch thinking. Nobody cares that 20 years ago this would be "fine", it's not in 2021 and that's what counts. Nobody cares that Runescape did not have much content 20 years ago - it's irrelevant, because when it released you did not have Steam at the ready with hundreds to thousands of games to insta bail to.
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  9. #2529
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Players are not wrong, you're talking like some detached Blizz exec. Imagine that in 2021 players expect a tad more than baseline crap when you have hundreds other games around with great stuff to offer.
    You might have a point if people didn't subjectively changes those expectations based on the company. A small indie developer? Expectations are low. A huge AAA studio? Expectations are high. It isn't doesn't take being a Blizzard executive to understand that players can be wrong. That they can demand to much out of new games, or new studios. It is wrong to label all things as having to great of expectations though.

    New games don't need everything in at launch in order to succeed. They just need to have good bones to build on and a good plan to continue growth. Look at NMS. How much it has changed over the years since a problematic launch. Could that stuff have been in at start? Sure but maybe it would be borderline vaporware like Star Citizen. Instead they kept building on the game to make it into something great.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  10. #2530
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You might have a point if people didn't subjectively changes those expectations based on the company.
    Are you implying that players are in the wrong to expect something more out of a high profile MMO launch of the last few years from studio swimming in big daddy's $$ no less that was hyped up to high heaven? Amazon pumped more $$ into hyping this game than many studios have budget to even make games.

    That's what brought all the players who took the bait in, but you can't blame the players for bailing after they realized the game is pretty graphics and little more than that once the novelty wears off.

    Again... how the players are at fault here? Eh?
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  11. #2531
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Are you implying that players are in the wrong to expect something more out of a high profile MMO launch of the last few years from studio swimming in big daddy's $$ no less that was hyped up to high heaven?
    From a studio whose last game went so poorly they unreleased it to rework it before canceling it? I mean, they have no track record and if you were "hyped to high heaven" that was very much a "you" (the royal you) problem.

    It's a bigger profile MMO, but it was pretty clear how limited the PvE would be and what the game was going to be about overall. Just because they're an Amazon studio and likely have more flexible budgets doesn't mean they have billions to drop on this game or anything, budgets still exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Amazon pumped more $$ into hyping this game than many studios have budget to even make games.
    Uh...no, probably not. They did a lot of digital advertising (not super expensive) and they sponsored a bunch of streamers on launch day (more expensive, but very routine for a lot of major game launches) and that's about it. No huge launch event stunts in Time Square or anything eating up budget, no massive multi-building banners at E3, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That's what brought all the players who took the bait in
    Or were just interested in the game and aren't expecting it to be the second coming of the savior because we didn't let our expectations get out of whack with reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Again... how the players are at fault here? Eh?
    Projecting what they hope/want the game to be rather than accepting it for what it is. No-lifing the game and then complaining about "unfinished/lack of content" after spending 200+ hours in it in a few weeks.

    There's always going to be player dropoff for any MMO, that's expected and fine. That's the folks hitting their 30's and figuring out the game isn't what they were hoping for and dropping off.

  12. #2532
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    *snip*
    That's just nonsense and you know it.

    AGS pulled no stops advertising New World, they have the $$ for it and heck they own Twitch to boot. And the insinuations that people knew XYZ are just silly - it's a new game with army of streamers praising it to high heaven as 2nd coming of JC.

    It wasn't advertised as PvP only game and was hyped to high heaven as "finally a new big high profile MMO" from Amazon no less. The brand alone carried a lot.

    So again, how is it players' fault that AGS fucked it up and fell short?

    As usual - the problem is not the players, it's the studio/publisher. Imagine that, when you change directions every other year and don't know what you even want to make you end up with players leaving because the game is neither fish nor meat.

    ---

    Now, I personally would not mind the whole discussion, but the whole "it's players' fault" crap really triggered me. It's same old shitty denial I seen in Wildstar or heck even current WoW state. And here we go again, as if we did not learn that lesson already 500 times.
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  13. #2533
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Players are not wrong, you're talking like some detached Blizz exec. Imagine that in 2021 players expect a tad more than baseline crap when you have hundreds other games around with great stuff to offer.

    This complete out of touch thinking. Nobody cares that 20 years ago this would be "fine", it's not in 2021 and that's what counts. Nobody cares that Runescape did not have much content 20 years ago - it's irrelevant, because when it released you did not have Steam at the ready with hundreds to thousands of games to insta bail to.
    We are talking about people expecting content out of New World or any released MMO to reflect years of dev time and somehow you turned it back to WoW, what?

  14. #2534
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    AGS pulled no stops advertising New World, they have the $$ for it and heck they own Twitch to boot. And the insinuations that people knew XYZ are just silly - it's a new game with army of streamers praising it to high heaven as 2nd coming of JC.
    Show me, then. Because I saw a largely digital-only marketing campaign fairly in-line with other major games, but without the physical adverts we historically see plastered on buildings and buses etc.

    They own Twitch yes...and? We know they sponsored a bunch of streamers on launch day but that's, again, fairly standard. Was there anything to indicate they spent even bigger than other companies?

    If you got all your information about the game from sponsored (which were all clearly labeled) streamers on launch day that's like...yeah, 100% a you problem for going to an obviously biased source of information because the streamer is being paid to play and promote the game. There was no shortage of opinions and previews and impressions based on beta events, which you (royal you) could have gotten into the open beta to check out yourself as well, so if you relied on that one source only, that's absolutely your fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It wasn't advertised as PvP only game and was hyped to high heaven as "finally a new big high profile MMO" from Amazon no less. The brand alone carried a lot.
    Because it's not a PvP only game. It's also not a PvE only game. All of which is clear if you bother spending 10-15 minutes doing some casual research about the game before purchasing.

    Why would the Amazon brand carry anything for games/gamers? Again, they had one game released prior to this, and it was unreleased and then canned. Just because it's "Amazon" doesn't mean shit, and if gamers automatically associated "Amazon = Money = Good products" that's, once more, on them for being a bit silly and not bothering to do any research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    So again, how is it players' fault that AGS fucked it up and fell short?
    You haven't shown any failures on Amazon's part yet, just vague unsourced "big ad budget!" and "but sponsored streamer said good things and that may have mislead people who don't know what 'sponsored' means!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    when you change directions every other year and don't know what you even want to make you end up with players leaving because the game is neither fish nor meat.
    They changed directions once, in response to player feedback that they didn't want a full loot sandbox PvP game. So they added in a lot of PvE content and more structured PvP content. Once more, this is a failure to understand or seek out pretty basic and very public information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And here we go again, as if we did not learn that lesson already 500 times.
    Players can be at fault when they fail to keep their expectations in check. Players can be at fault if they go into a game largely blind, assuming it is something radically different than what it is, and then getting upset to find out it's not what they thought.

    It can go both ways.

  15. #2535
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    We are talking about people expecting content out of New World or any released MMO to reflect years of dev time and somehow you turned it back to WoW, what?
    Yeah, people expect content, how insane is that. Totally their fault there they are not staying for... nothing.

    It's not about WoW, it's about blaming players for corporate development studio fuckups. Yeah, guess what - if you don't put content that makes people stay, they don't stay - crazy how that works.

    I'd hope the studios would learn that one after so many MMOs crashed and burned exactly on this very same problem.
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  16. #2536
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yeah, people expect content, how insane is that. Totally their fault there they are not staying for... nothing.
    What kind of content? Tons of dungeons? New World was never advertised as having tons of dungeons. Traditonal raids? Never advertised as having traditional raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I'd hope the studios would learn that one after so many MMOs crashed and burned exactly on this very same problem.
    Player dropoff/burnout is normal. And honestly looking at the Steam #'s New World is doing fine. Numbers are declining as normal/expected, with folks either outright quitting or playing less often so concurrency is lower. It's doing far better than what little data we've had to compare previous games that have struggled with, still with +50% of the original launch peak concurrency two weeks out. Which doesn't mean they've almost lost half their playerbase though, as we don't know how much is attributable to folks that quit vs. simply folks not logging on at the same time as much.

  17. #2537
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yeah, people expect content, how insane is that. Totally their fault there they are not staying for... nothing.

    It's not about WoW, it's about blaming players for corporate development studio fuckups. Yeah, guess what - if you don't put content that makes people stay, they don't stay - crazy how that works.

    I'd hope the studios would learn that one after so many MMOs crashed and burned exactly on this very same problem.
    Then we are saying the same thing but somehow you didnt get it, the only difference is, its not 2010 to blame the studios, its the players now, they fund the hype and all the MMOs crash and burn for the same reason and thats my point, after 20 MMOs that are rinse and repeat and fail the first 2 months, you would expect people would learn by now.

    Stop overhyping, stop pressuring them, and stop expecting to get back the WoW of 2005 where you are a clueless noob and took 500 hours to do what you were supposed to do in 100 cause of lack of knowledge/internet or w/e else.

    People need to accept that if you are playing MMOs, you either do their endgame system or simply hop around them as people are doing, without complaining.

  18. #2538
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    So again, how is it players' fault that AGS fucked it up and fell short?
    If players believe the hype and marketing of any game then they have some fault. Could it not have been over hyped? Sure. But removing any personal responsibility for blindly following hype is silly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Are you implying that players are in the wrong to expect something more out of a high profile MMO launch of the last few years from studio swimming in big daddy's $$ no less that was hyped up to high heaven? Amazon pumped more $$ into hyping this game than many studios have budget to even make games.
    Yes. People that expect to much are at fault for expecting to much. How is that even a question? Money doesn't mean quality. AGS has no released games that did well. The only one they did release for PC was moved back into beta and then ultimately cancelled. Money isn't the issue here. Believing hype and falling into it is partly the responsibility of the players. Part developers who over hype and part players for falling for it.

    How often is it said that people shouldn't pre-order because it sends the wrong message to developers? And now we have the opposite position from you saying that it is the fault of the developers at all times. New World is an average game. If you paid attention to the actual design and development it would never have come across as a WoW killer or "greatest thing since sliced bread" type of thing. But hey it can't ever be the fault of the players because they can't possible think logically about stuff they consume.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yeah, people expect content, how insane is that. Totally their fault there they are not staying for... nothing.
    What developer can deliver content faster then players consume it? The game has been out for 3 weeks. Name one developer that can meet that schedule. Players can have unrealistic expectations and to deny that is possible is just silly. Could there have been more quests, dungeons, and end game stuff in the game at launch? Sure. But it isn't that important if they have a good plan to add that stuff post launch.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-10-15 at 06:35 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  19. #2539
    There are so many fun things to do in a MMO.

    Dungeons, PvP, farming and crafting, quests etc...

    But what I spend 70% of my time doing in New World is walking which is absolutely the least interesting thing to do in a MMO.

    What I wanted in New World was an adventure, what I got was a walking simulator.

  20. #2540
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    But what I spend 70% of my time doing in New World is walking which is absolutely the least interesting thing to do in a MMO.
    The worst part is you can't even open your inventory to check/look at things while moving.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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