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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    New World is not a P2W game you need to get over that, you cant even buy player power at all, certain boosts that may be available a few months after release is not P2W.
    I disagree. I think any ingame boosts for $$ is pay to win.

    Pay for Convenience is just a term invented by Greedy Devs to make the scummy practice seem less dire.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Pay for Convenience is just a term invented by Greedy Devs to make the scummy practice seem less dire.
    Or, a way for them to sell games without mandatory subs while giving a good baseline experience for free players and the option for an "improved" experience if you want to play. Not arguing all cash shops are good, plenty are pretty garbage, but there's nothing I've seen that would indicate anything in New World would negatively impact the experience as someone who just bought the game but doesn't spend in the cash shop.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Or, a way for them to sell games without mandatory subs while giving a good baseline experience for free players and the option for an "improved" experience if you want to play. Not arguing all cash shops are good, plenty are pretty garbage, but there's nothing I've seen that would indicate anything in New World would negatively impact the experience as someone who just bought the game but doesn't spend in the cash shop.
    ESO does just that. It has an optional sub. And the game is designed to make you want to buy the sub. The Crafting is absolute hell. A thousand materials that clutter your bags and bank. But wait.... the Sub has a Crafting Bag, that makes that go away.

    How convenient.

    Yeah no, fuck designs like that. It's pure greed. They make the game shitty for free users to make them spend more.

    A buy to play game that is intentionally made annoying so you spend even more in the cash shop is garbage.
    Last edited by starstationprofm; 2021-05-20 at 01:08 AM.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    ESO does just that. It has an optional sub. And the game is designed to make you want to buy the sub. The Crafting is absolute hell. A thousand materials that clutter your bags and bank. But wait.... the Sub has a Crafting Bag, that makes that go away.

    How convenient.

    Yeah no, fuck designs like that. It's pure greed. They make the game shitty for free users to make them spend more.
    FYI on the crafting research, that was in from launch.

    The crafting bag? That didn't exist with the initial P2P launch and your bags got cluttered. They solved the problem by adding the crafting mat bag to the sub to encourage players to sub, and since they periodically have free-sub weeks and you don't lost stuff in the bag when your sub lapses it was a nice "bonus" to give players without taking anything away from the game when it transitioned business models.

    You don't need to pick up every craftable material you see, especially if you don't plan on engaging with all the crafting professions or even really crafting.

    Pure greed would have been taking something away a la SWTOR taking away hotbars (yes, literal hotbars) from F2P players and locking them behind preferred status (spending any money on the game) and the full set of action bars behind the sub. ESO adding a benefit that didn't exist before the business model change to encourage players to sub is like, how transitions should be done. The experience as a non-sub player is still great, you just can't be a lootmonkey that mindlessly loots every barrel and box and bag and plant and ore you see without needing to periodically go back and empty your inventory (which is like...a normal thing in MMO's).

    Still not seeing how this applies to New World, since we're currently clutching pearls over a cash shop none of us have even seen.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post

    Still not seeing how this applies to New World, since we're currently clutching pearls over a cash shop none of us have even seen.
    As we should. Cash Shop is a bad idea from the start. They should just have a sub if they want money so much. Microtransactions are cancer for gaming. Even cosmetic ones. Dev time goes to creating some $$$ only assets that could be earned ingame.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Cash Shop is a bad idea from the start.
    Literally every MMO has a cash shop at this point, it's unavoidable.

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    They should just have a sub if they want money so much.
    Given that every sub game except WoW and to a lesser extent FFXIV (which gives the base game away for free for players who haven't purchased the game or any expansion) are some of the only remaining games with subscriptions. FFXI too. Every other game has changed to a F2P/B2P model because subscription-only models are insanely difficult to make work and are often not sustainable without immense momentum behind them like WoW has or like the FF brand brings. Not even the Elder Scrolls brand could prop up ESO with a subscription. The Star Wars IP couldn't keep SWTOR afloat either.

    It's a reality of the gaming market, like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Microtransactions are cancer for gaming. Even cosmetic ones. Dev time goes to creating some $$$ only assets that could be earned ingame.
    Then I highly recommend not playing any online games at all, because you're going to find vanishingly few with cosmetic MTX. Hell, your non-online game options are dwindling as well. I'm not a big fan of them in every game, but that's also why I don't spend on them in every game. And most of the time, it doesn't impact my experience at all if I don't have the all-gold banana skin for my character or the polka dot skin for my gun.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Literally every MMO has a cash shop at this point, it's unavoidable.



    Given that every sub game except WoW and to a lesser extent FFXIV (which gives the base game away for free for players who haven't purchased the game or any expansion) are some of the only remaining games with subscriptions. FFXI too. Every other game has changed to a F2P/B2P model because subscription-only models are insanely difficult to make work and are often not sustainable without immense momentum behind them like WoW has or like the FF brand brings. Not even the Elder Scrolls brand could prop up ESO with a subscription. The Star Wars IP couldn't keep SWTOR afloat either.

    It's a reality of the gaming market, like it or not.



    Then I highly recommend not playing any online games at all, because you're going to find vanishingly few with cosmetic MTX. Hell, your non-online game options are dwindling as well. I'm not a big fan of them in every game, but that's also why I don't spend on them in every game. And most of the time, it doesn't impact my experience at all if I don't have the all-gold banana skin for my character or the polka dot skin for my gun.
    Some worse than others. For better or worse WoW's barely impacts the game.

    Then I highly recommend not playing any online games at all
    I'm not in a rush to pay for MMOs. I just quit farming gold for WoW Tokens ( that's right, my opinion of WoW is so low I can't even be bothered sending out daily missions and paying the sub with gold ) and I don't really miss the game.

    Amazon has more than enough money, hell, any big company launching an MMO has the money to make it buy to play and sell more content via expansions.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Some worse than others. For better or worse WoW's barely impacts the game.
    Yet it has cosmetics and boosts aplenty (mounts, pets, toys, transmog set, bundles of cosmetics, race/faction changes, character boosts, and WoW tokens that can be sold for in-game gold). Many things you consistently call out as ruining games. Considering we don't know what New World's shop will look like, why does it not get any benefit of the doubt?

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Amazon has more than enough money, hell, any big company launching an MMO has the money to make it buy to play and sell more content via expansions.
    More than enough money for what? They're not a charity, they're making games to make money like every other company out there. They're dumping money into the game and their game division, from licensing CryEngine to build Lumberyard to the games they've canceled to the multiple significant delays and huge direction shift for New World.

    The model you're talking about is more the Guild Wars 1 model, and even that didn't last long when it was a thing in the 2000's. GW1 was a FAR smaller scale MMO than the games we're talking about now, so going with selling the box and expansions only was more viable given the considerably lower budget. But even GW1 moved to adding a cash shop in nearing the end of its life.

    You know a game that takes more of that approach? ESO. Every update is one of the three annual paid DLC's (sometimes with some free content in there) and the annual expansion, with your sub giving you the DLC for free for as long as you maintain it. But it's also got a fully featured cash shop and things like $500 houses for sale. But again, that's not financially viable without additional sources of revenue. You may think it is, but literally all available data in reality doesn't jive with your belief.

  9. #489
    Yet it has cosmetics and boosts aplenty (mounts, pets, toys, transmog set, bundles of cosmetics, race/faction changes, character boosts, and WoW tokens that can be sold for in-game gold). Many things you consistently call out as ruining games. Considering we don't know what New World's shop will look like, why does it not get any benefit of the doubt?
    Because they just made leveling incredibly fast. Where ESO made crafting shit on purpose so you buy the bag, WoW, despite having boosts already, made leveling far easier. They went in the exact opposite way.

    The mounts pets transmogs are still bad. But they at least don't give you XP or other bonuses.

    Considering we don't know what New World's shop will look like
    You're defending them too much. They said the world is too small for mounts, then said premium users will have easier fast travel. The greed is visible already.

    But again, that's not financially viable without additional sources of revenue
    Sure they're viable. They just make more money with a cash shop. Amazon would also make more money if they didn't give AC to the workers but we should still call them out for it.

    Idk why you defend greedy corporations. They make more than enough money.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Because they just made leveling incredibly fast. Where ESO made crafting shit on purpose so you buy the bag, WoW, despite having boosts already, made leveling far easier. They went in the exact opposite way.

    The mounts pets transmogs are still bad. But they at least don't give you XP or other bonuses.



    You're defending them too much. They said the world is too small for mounts, then said premium users will have easier fast travel. The greed is visible already.



    Sure they're viable. They just make more money with a cash shop. Amazon would also make more money if they didn't give AC to the workers but we should still call them out for it.

    Idk why you defend greedy corporations. They make more than enough money.
    You know it's funny you say that, I've been to Amazon data centers, they don't actually air-condition server and electrical spaces.


    ----‐----------------


    On topic: I got into the Alpha today, I'm not going to go crazy in here because it's still under an NDA, which i can't find and latest official mention I've seen says i just can't stream or take pictures.
    The game itself is actually pretty good. It goes the action route and it plays much better than ESO's version. If I had to give a blunt assessment of the game, it actual floats really close to what I'd imagine a Fable mmo would be, good/evil mechanics excluded.

    On the MTX side... there is an obvious framework in place that could be exploitable to be insufferably P2W. This includes crafting, bag space, travel; if you are familiar with mobile games and the systems they use to boost paying users, you aren't to far off of what's possibly in the game.

    I've also heard others say that in-game xp gain is boosted currently, which if they do cut base xp gain, its not going to be a nice experience.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Where ESO made crafting shit on purpose so you buy the bag
    Not to get off-topic, but crafting literally didn't change between launch and B2P. The crafting bag simply didn't exist, it was a new perk created to be given to subscribers. You literally have no idea what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    You're defending them too much. They said the world is too small for mounts, then said premium users will have easier fast travel. The greed is visible already.
    I'm defending nothing, I'm just arguing against people doomsaying about a cash shop they've never seen based purely off of a reasonable comment that they may add boosts in post-launch. Y'all are literally making all these things up in your head right now. They don't want mounts but will allow fast travel...and? The entire game world wasn't re-designed around them deciding to potentially include something like fast-travel, as with ESO that's something that was decided well after.

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Sure they're viable. They just make more money with a cash shop. Amazon would also make more money if they didn't give AC to the workers but we should still call them out for it.
    Name some then? Or do they not exist because like, for-profit companies are interested in making money, and every company making a game (at least all the major games) are for-profit companies?

    What the hell does providing AC to workers have to do with a cash shop? These two things are completely unrelated.

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Idk why you defend greedy corporations. They make more than enough money.
    I don't. What I'm seeing out of Amazon with New World is very much par for the course, and they're acting no more greedy than any other company. People just think that Amazon is like, supposed to be some charity or something. Don't get me wrong, fuck Amazon. I have a lot of reasons to hate Amazon as a company, and Jeff Bezos as a person. That is a factor in my thinking about this game, but it doesn't color all of it. Because I'm more interested in the games themselves and the people building them, who don't have any say in all the awful shit Amazon does in other areas of its business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    On the MTX side... there is an obvious framework in place that could be exploitable to be insufferably P2W. This includes crafting, bag space, travel
    All of which are extremely standard in B2P/F2P cash shops.

    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    if you are familiar with mobile games and the systems they use to boost paying users, you aren't to far off of what's possibly in the game.
    Considering mobile games sell straight up power to paying users, you're gonna need to get more specific if you can without breaking the NDA.

    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I've also heard others say that in-game xp gain is boosted currently, which if they do cut base xp gain, its not going to be a nice experience.
    For testers, sure. But that's because you're testing the game right now, not getting an early preview. It's not uncommon to boost player power via bonus XP or stats or boosted gear to let players test content more quickly and have access to more content to test faster.

  12. #492
    far as i'm concerned, the game is dead before it even launches. the fact that amazon tried to hide the fact there would be a cash shop at all says that they know what they are doing and plan to abuse it for money. no point in getting invested now when i know only heartbreak will come later if i like the game.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    far as i'm concerned, the game is dead before it even launches. the fact that amazon tried to hide the fact there would be a cash shop at all says that they know what they are doing and plan to abuse it for money. no point in getting invested now when i know only heartbreak will come later if i like the game.
    How did they try to hide the fact they would have a cash shop? Do you think they honestly believed that no information like that would leak out from the forums? Why wouldn't it have a cash shop? Have they ever said it wouldn't?

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Yikes, dude.

    I'm a Chemical Engineer, I probably make way more than you. The difference is I don't brag about it or consider poor people inferior, and I don't give money to greedy, shitty devs that make pay to win games.

    You need to get a grip.
    Lol. Yeah man, you're right. Let's force all cars to be the same size and shape, have the same interior trim, zero additional features and all be speed limited to 60km/h because what if people don't want to spend their money on a car? Same with restaurants, we'll have a set menu across every restaurant, and we'll fix the decorations and light fixtures so they all look they same as well because it just isn't fair that some people can't afford to eat at 3 Michelin star restaurants.

    The choice you're making here isn't paying $2,000 for a boost or having to slog through 800 hours of cookie-clicker before you're allowed to play the game. No one is being priced out or "forced" into buying a boost. In WoW's case it's ~$40 to skip ~40 hours worth of content you don't enjoy/have done a hundred times 14 years ago in order to play the game you actually want to play, which starts at level 58. If you value your time at >$1/hr and you derive zero enjoyment from leveling then the boost is a product for you. If you value your time at <$1/hr or you enjoy the leveling process, then it is not a product for you. It is literally that simple. There are other examples too: if you don't own any leather objects you probably don't want to buy leather cleaner. Do you have a vagina? If not, you probably don't want to buy Vagisil.

    I've decided I don't really care enough to reply any more. The entire gaming industry is seemingly on my side of this discussion because the vast majority of games now include cash shops for cosmetics/convenience, and the number of them that are truly terrible (Star Citizen, AC: Odyssey) are outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1 by good cash shops (WoW, PoE). I'll buy an extra boost on your behalf just so Blizzard know they're getting your support, friend <3

  15. #495
    Scarab Lord Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Lol. Yeah man, you're right. Let's force all cars to be the same size and shape, have the same interior trim, zero additional features and all be speed limited to 60km/h because what if people don't want to spend their money on a car? Same with restaurants, we'll have a set menu across every restaurant, and we'll fix the decorations and light fixtures so they all look they same as well because it just isn't fair that some people can't afford to eat at 3 Michelin star restaurants.

    The choice you're making here isn't paying $2,000 for a boost or having to slog through 800 hours of cookie-clicker before you're allowed to play the game. No one is being priced out or "forced" into buying a boost. In WoW's case it's ~$40 to skip ~40 hours worth of content you don't enjoy/have done a hundred times 14 years ago in order to play the game you actually want to play, which starts at level 58. If you value your time at >$1/hr and you derive zero enjoyment from leveling then the boost is a product for you. If you value your time at <$1/hr or you enjoy the leveling process, then it is not a product for you. It is literally that simple. There are other examples too: if you don't own any leather objects you probably don't want to buy leather cleaner. Do you have a vagina? If not, you probably don't want to buy Vagisil.

    I've decided I don't really care enough to reply any more. The entire gaming industry is seemingly on my side of this discussion because the vast majority of games now include cash shops for cosmetics/convenience, and the number of them that are truly terrible (Star Citizen, AC: Odyssey) are outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1 by good cash shops (WoW, PoE). I'll buy an extra boost on your behalf just so Blizzard know they're getting your support, friend <3
    This post reeks of trust fund child.
    You know, it's kinda funny. On this forum you can question and criticize celebrities, developers, even governments. But only two you will net you instant infractions; religion and the actions of moderators. Really puts into perspective the literal god complexes we're dealing with here.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    How did they try to hide the fact they would have a cash shop? Do you think they honestly believed that no information like that would leak out from the forums? Why wouldn't it have a cash shop? Have they ever said it wouldn't?
    they tried to hide it with an NDA. this is fact. it doesn't matter if they thought they could get away with it or not. they didn't and they tried to hide it. that's all i need to know that they can't be trusted to handle this game.

    (source: https://www.mmorpg.com/news/rumor-ne...ate-2000121956)

  17. #497
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    Isnt that just false outrage though? The NDA was not specifically for the cash shop but applies to everything in the alpha. Its just something that got leaked and naturally and well deserved got this backlash.

    Cash shops are not a bad thing though, if done right (Hello Dota2). So long there is no real game benefits and only cosmetics, there shouldnt be any issues.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    they tried to hide it with an NDA. this is fact. it doesn't matter if they thought they could get away with it or not. they didn't and they tried to hide it. that's all i need to know that they can't be trusted to handle this game.

    (source: https://www.mmorpg.com/news/rumor-ne...ate-2000121956)
    Yeah, the NDA is for the alpha right now. No company believes NDA's are iron-clad, but they do them anyway. See the Division: Heartland video welcoming players to the alpha and specifically requesting that they not share anything being leaked immediately.

    Again, if you or anyone else didn't think they'd have a cash shop in a B2P game then you haven't been paying attention to the genre. Bloody subscription based games have cash shops.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2021-05-20 at 03:16 PM.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Forteofgray View Post
    Black Desert Online
    Yea, great game. Not sure what you intend here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    I disagree. I think any ingame boosts for $$ is pay to win.

    Pay for Convenience is just a term invented by Greedy Devs to make the scummy practice seem less dire.
    Game devs didn't invent the term or practice. It's a natural logical deduction that has existed in other industries outside games for years & years.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2021-05-20 at 03:42 PM. Reason: auto correct did me dirty again!
    "It's a big club. And you ain't in it. It is also the club they use to beat you with." - George Carlin

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Yea, great game. Not sure what you intend here.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Game devs didn't invent the termor practice. It's a natural logical deduction that has existed in other industries outside games for years & years.
    Maybe, but it wasn't the shareholders that put the Crafting bag into ESO.

    but crafting literally didn't change between launch and B2P. The crafting bag simply didn't exist, it was a new perk created to be given to subscribers. You literally have no idea what you are talking about.
    They still could've fixed the absolutely trash crafting system they had. Instead of fixing their fuckups they made the fix to milk more money out of gullible fools.


    I'm defending nothing
    Yeah you are. You have a pretty weird investment in defending greedy corporations.

    How the fuck can you rationalise not having mounts but having fast travel costs? So they say the world is too small for mounts, but put in fast travel? Lmao

    Name some then? Or do they not exist because like, for-profit companies are interested in making money,
    And I'm interested in calling them out and shitting on their products when they get too greedy.

    What I'm seeing out of Amazon with New World is very much par for the course
    And we're calling it out like we should. Hopefully with enough outrage it dies in its crib or is forced to change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Lol. Yeah man, you're right. Let's force all cars to be the same size and shape, have the same interior trim, zero additional features and all be speed limited to 60km/h
    Comparing a 60$ game to a real life vehicle. Big brain time.

    Yes, when everyone pays 60$ for the same thing I expect them to get an equal experience. Microtransactions are a cancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leotheras the Blind View Post
    This post reeks of trust fund child.
    Seconded

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Yea, great game. Not sure what you intend here.
    .
    That's sarcasm, right? BDO is absolute dogshit. Pay to win up the wazoo, progression is the most ridiculous RNG I've ever seen in a game, PvE is just the same dumb loot pinattas that are only an issue if you don't have the ilvl to hit them, PvP is broken on a fundamental level, with some classes able to 1v10 and others being useless.

    The only things BDO does right is visuals, housing and character customisation.

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