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  1. #481
    Deleted
    The longish answer is that if you're not dragging your team back with your playstyle choices, then it doesn't matter.

    Acceptable DpS is in the range of 1500k ish? nowadays? So as long as you can go around that number and beyond it, as long as you're holding your own with your top guns, then your enjoyment comes first so that you don't burn out playing something you loathe.

    I think everybody in this board casted one too many Whirlwinds in WoD to stomach a FoB spec anyway. There's some who can stick to that and some who are rightfully fed up with that shit.

  2. #482
    Deleted
    With the fob-trauma build do you ever still use bladestorm on single target?

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejn View Post
    With the fob-trauma build do you ever still use bladestorm on single target?
    That's a big ol' nope.
    Priest Warrior
    You are not your role. You are not how much gold you have on your account.
    You are not the mount you ride. You are not the contents of your bank.
    You are not your epic purples. You are not a special and unique snowflake.
    You are the all-grinding, all-farming crap of Azeroth.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejn View Post
    With the fob-trauma build do you ever still use bladestorm on single target?
    sadly not, which is probably one if blizzards worst design choices of all times. one of arms' most iconic skills hits like a wet noodle and is completely garbage on ST.

  5. #485
    It's almost useless everywhere these days. Swap to belt for trash and bladestorm isn't worth using at all. It's sad to see it sitting on my bars untouched.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Drtydeeds View Post
    Interesting! I'm pouring over the logs right now, but I noticed you use Collapse (ring on-use) outside your BC window is that intentional? You can macro your /use to the same key as BC+BS and the Collapse cast will crit (due to BC). Up until a couple days ago I'd been using a 945 Collapsing Futures ring for most of the expansion and it worked for me
    I had not considered that, but I will now. tyvm

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    sadly not, which is probably one if blizzards worst design choices of all times. one of arms' most iconic skills hits like a wet noodle and is completely garbage on ST.
    Well, it's an AoE ability. Prior to Legion it was never used on ST either, and nobody had any complaint; the bigger difference is that Legion introduced Ravager, so you don't end up using Bladestorm for AoE either.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Well, it's an AoE ability. Prior to Legion it was never used on ST either, and nobody had any complaint; the bigger difference is that Legion introduced Ravager, so you don't end up using Bladestorm for AoE either.
    thats what i meant, the fact it is not worth using as a ST skill feels like a design flaw to me. after all it is a freaking bladestorm, why wouldn't it be stronger (lorewise) than other ST skill.

    also i made up my mind to make arms more appealing and came up with the following ideas:

    the main problem with arms is it has very mediocre scaling and gets dumped down a spot each week of antorus since the opening of the raid. we've been top 4 at the start of antorus and now we are closing in to bottom 4.

    design changes that makes arms not fun playing at all.

    while ToS offered fun interactions with our legendaries and sets, we are now back in a state were we just wait a minute (yawn) for a mediocre dmg cooldown while not doing anything (outstanding) the rest of the 55 seconds. there is zero to none synergies with our set after ayalas has been stomped into the ground 2 or 3 times. pressing one or two executes per minute feels so utterly underwhelming, i am hard pressed to switch over to battlelord and enjoy some FR play again just for the sake of fun. not that the dps difference would be relevant on a non progress casual specc that arms now has become.

    sad times for arms. from absolute top tier and insanely fun to play at the start of the expansion to the worst and most blantant specc since vanilla in the end.

    how easy it would be to make arms fun again.

    - make overpower baseline and let it be a procc that is powerful but not overuseable
    - make anger management baseline, reducing cooldowns by promoting active gameplay is a great way to add spice to a specc
    - make avatar baseline and/or rend
    - give bladestorm a relevant single target increase like fervor of battle does with whirlwind so it is a useable ST cooldown (the primary target of bladestorm takes XX% more dmg from bladestorm)
    - increase ayalas procc chance again but lower the rage used by it (i am fine with the overall damage but not with the procc chance)
    - add some utility mechanics to warbreaker such as creating a ring mobs cannot pass through for a short amount of time while players can, adding some CC/utility to its boring effect
    - balance other numbers accordingly (read: lower numbers)

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    thats what i meant, the fact it is not worth using as a ST skill feels like a design flaw to me. after all it is a freaking bladestorm, why wouldn't it be stronger (lorewise) than other ST skill.
    Because, lorewise, it's an AoE ability; it's always been an AoE ability. Not to sound reductive, but that's an unsubstantiated argument, you could make the same claim about literally any ability in the game. The T20 bonus was interesting, but it did have drawbacks, namely turning your entire cooldown phase into a one-button macro and 5s /afk.

    the main problem with arms is it has very mediocre scaling and gets dumped down a spot each week of antorus since the opening of the raid. we've been top 4 at the start of antorus and now we are closing in to bottom 4.
    Arms doesn't have poor scaling, it was strong at the start because it was still using an overpowered tier bonus (20) and nobody had collected the new tier bonus yet. Other classes have a relatively stronger T21, not to mention better tuning, and therefore have climbed. That said, Arms really isn't in a bad spot right now, in fact, it's in a much better relative spot than Fury was last tier. It's

    while ToS offered fun interactions with our legendaries and sets, we are now back in a state were we just wait a minute (yawn) for a mediocre dmg cooldown while not doing anything (outstanding) the rest of the 55 seconds. there is zero to none synergies with our set after ayalas has been stomped into the ground 2 or 3 times. pressing one or two executes per minute feels so utterly underwhelming, i am hard pressed to switch over to battlelord and enjoy some FR play again just for the sake of fun. not that the dps difference would be relevant on a non progress casual specc that arms now has become.
    Not to argue, but I don't agree. T20 Arms also lulled while waiting for cooldowns, and the Gloves have just as much synergy with T21/FoB as the Helm had with T20/Bladestorm. Ayala's proc rate is poor now, but it's still an exceedingly strong legendary.

    sad times for arms. from absolute top tier and insanely fun to play at the start of the expansion to the worst and most blantant specc since vanilla in the end.
    I mean, that's how balance works. You realize how boring it would be for all the people who wanted to play any other talent build or spec and would feel unable to if Arms simply dominated for the entirety of the expansion? That's a very one-sided way of looking at things. It's also reasonable to consider that there's also a sizeable portion of the playerbase who would argue that Arms at the start of the expansion wasn't fun. Different strokes for different folks, but you can't expect the thing you like to always be the best, simply because you like it, in a multiplayer game with any semblance of balance.

    The nice thing is that you can talent into different builds if you like. Go play FR if that's what makes you happy, nobody is stopping you.

    how easy it would be to make arms fun again.

    - make overpower baseline and let it be a procc that is powerful but not overuseable
    - make anger management baseline, reducing cooldowns by promoting active gameplay is a great way to add spice to a specc
    - make avatar baseline and/or rend
    - give bladestorm a relevant single target increase like fervor of battle does with whirlwind so it is a useable ST cooldown (the primary target of bladestorm takes XX% more dmg from bladestorm)
    - increase ayalas procc chance again but lower the rage used by it (i am fine with the overall damage but not with the procc chance)
    - add some utility mechanics to warbreaker such as creating a ring mobs cannot pass through for a short amount of time while players can, adding some CC/utility to its boring effect
    - balance other numbers accordingly (read: lower numbers)
    Making a whole bunch of things baseline isn't good for anyone. Aside from the fact that it'd require a whole host of new talents which may or may not unbalance things, it severely bloats the base of the rotation. If you want "more active" shorter cooldown gameplay, I'd suggest you go try Fury. I'm not even going to touch the more outlandish suggestions.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Because, lorewise, it's an AoE ability; it's always been an AoE ability. Not to sound reductive, but that's an unsubstantiated argument, you could make the same claim about literally any ability in the game. The T20 bonus was interesting, but it did have drawbacks, namely turning your entire cooldown phase into a one-button macro and 5s /afk.
    it was not always a pure aoe, it did actually serve its purpose as a filler if there was nothing else to be done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Arms doesn't have poor scaling, it was strong at the start because it was still using an overpowered tier bonus (20) and nobody had collected the new tier bonus yet. Other classes have a relatively stronger T21, not to mention better tuning, and therefore have climbed. That said, Arms really isn't in a bad spot right now, in fact, it's in a much better relative spot than Fury was last tier.
    well call it better tuning, worse scaling, whatever. they did not make up for the strong t20. beeing in a "not as bad state" as the alternative specc during the last tier does not make arms good now. i was always fine arms was beeing regarded as the pure ST specc with lesser or very little sustained cleave abilities; but now fury pulls ahead in almost any given scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Not to argue, but I don't agree. T20 Arms also lulled while waiting for cooldowns, and the Gloves have just as much synergy with T21/FoB as the Helm had with T20/Bladestorm. Ayala's proc rate is poor now, but it's still an exceedingly strong legendary.
    reduce skill costs by xx is plain boring and nothing else, hardly what i would describe as of synergystic character (technically yes of course, but not in a sense of altering your gameplay). chosing a completely different level 110 talent while using a new a legendary paired with a new setbonus is something completely different. it did alter playstyle, cooldown usage, gearing choices.
    ayalas is in a good spot regarding power level, but it felt a A LOT more exciting when you had to watch out for proccs more often. all i am asking is to strike a balance to relive that awesome "ahh nice the ring procc" feeling while not buffing it overall again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I mean, that's how balance works. You realize how boring it would be for all the people who wanted to play any other talent build or spec and would feel unable to if Arms simply dominated for the entirety of the expansion? That's a very one-sided way of looking at things. It's also reasonable to consider that there's also a sizeable portion of the playerbase who would argue that Arms at the start of the expansion wasn't fun. Different strokes for different folks, but you can't expect the thing you like to always be the best, simply because you like it, in a multiplayer game with any semblance of balance.

    The nice thing is that you can talent into different builds if you like. Go play FR if that's what makes you happy, nobody is stopping you.
    yeah i agree on this, but the rollercoaster in legion was real.
    the problem is, even if you are not a top tier raider it feels akward to not use the best possible talent choices. you wouldn't want to buy a worse car for the same money aswell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Making a whole bunch of things baseline isn't good for anyone. Aside from the fact that it'd require a whole host of new talents which may or may not unbalance things, it severely bloats the base of the rotation. If you want "more active" shorter cooldown gameplay, I'd suggest you go try Fury. I'm not even going to touch the more outlandish suggestions.
    bloats the base of the rotation? you mean a rotation that uses 2 buttons every 5-20 seconds is not in dire need a bloated base rotation? what do you consider outlandish? bladestorm as a ST skill? well you could argue against it and i am fine with your argumentation, yet not even close to outlandish. make ayalas more fun again? hardly aswell. add utility to a legendary effect such as ashbringer's stun? probably neither. anger mangement is merely a thing of number crunching.

    quite frankly, removing baseline skills from the last expasions and forcing them into "talent" tiers is not good nor interesting developement. it is lazy and unimaginative from a design point of view. that beeing said i was fine with the removal of SOME of the warrior skills that have bloated out bars over the years, but not iconic skills like rend, avatar.
    or spell reflect (pvp talented)
    Last edited by Kitaen; 2018-01-15 at 11:19 AM.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    it was not always a pure aoe, it did actually serve its purpose as a filler if there was nothing else to be done.
    It was never designed to be a ST filler, just like walking out of melee range and charging back in was never intended design; it's something I came up with to eat time when otherwise not doing anything and pick up <0.1% dps - it's still an AoE ability.

    well call it better tuning, worse scaling, whatever. they did not make up for the strong t20. beeing in a "not as bad state" as the alternative specc during the last tier does not make arms good now. i was always fine arms was beeing regarded as the pure ST specc with lesser or very little sustained cleave abilities; but now fury pulls ahead in almost any given scenario.
    Tuning and scaling are different things. Arms T20 was over tuned, T21 is about average as far as all tier sets are concerned, and you missed the point that Arms now is better than Fury was then, and neither specs were/are bad. Arms is currently upper/middle of the pack, which is in fact balanced.

    Arms was never "regarded as the pure ST spec with lesser or little sustained cleave abilities", quite the opposite in fact, Arms has always been the cleave spec, and in fact still has the advantage over Fury in that situation.

    reduce skill costs by xx is plain boring and nothing else, hardly what i would describe as of synergystic character (technically yes of course, but not in a sense of altering your gameplay). chosing a completely different level 110 talent while using a new a legendary paired with a new setbonus is something completely different. it did alter playstyle, cooldown usage, gearing choices.
    You could also argue that a flat damage buff is boring, hardly what I would describe as "altering your gameplay".

    ayalas is in a good spot regarding power level, but it felt a A LOT more exciting when you had to watch out for proccs more often. all i am asking is to strike a balance to relive that awesome "ahh nice the ring procc" feeling while not buffing it overall again.
    That would require completely retuning the whole spec, since nerfing either Execute or EP would change the priority. Quite frankly isn't going to happen, nor does it "need to"; go talent Overpower if you want more proc gameplay.

    the problem is, even if you are not a top tier raider it feels akward to not use the best possible talent choices. you wouldn't want to buy a worse car for the same money aswell.
    You would if you liked the car better and realized that the performance of your car doesn't matter to anyone but yourself...

    bloats the base of the rotation? you mean a rotation that uses 2 buttons every 5-20 seconds is not in dire need a bloated base rotation? what do you consider outlandish? bladestorm as a ST skill? well you could argue against it and i am fine with your argumentation, yet not even close to outlandish. make ayalas more fun again? hardly aswell. add utility to a legendary effect such as ashbringer's stun? probably neither. anger mangement is merely a thing of number crunching.
    First off, there are three, not two, and there's significantly less than 5-20s between casts. Second, that's the base rotation for a reason, as legendaries and talents add more. Could Arms use an extra base button? Perhaps, but that's a far cry from "make a half dozen talents and activated abilities baseline". That removes choice from the equation and makes it harder to cut back to a simplified rotation for others.

    quite frankly, removing baseline skills from the last expasions and forcing them into "talent" tiers is not good nor interesting developement. it is lazy and unimaginative from a design point of view. that beeing said i was fine with the removal of SOME of the warrior skills that have bloated out bars over the years, but not iconic skills like rend, avatar.
    or spell reflect (pvp talented)
    Again, you seem to be missing the point that the intention is to allow you to build your own rotation - if you like more buttons, talent them, if you like simpler rotations, don't. Also Avatar was added in MoP and has always been a talent, so it is neither "iconic", nor was it removed from anything.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    It was never designed to be a ST filler, just like walking out of melee range and charging back in was never intended design; it's something I came up with to eat time when otherwise not doing anything and pick up <0.1% dps - it's still an AoE ability.
    charging back in was and will always be intended design, i remember doing that since we have gotten charge in combat. as you said yourself, the arms swing timer is very forgiving and allows for such plays. i think it is obsolete to discuss if BS should or should not be a part of a ST rotation. different ppl different opinions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Tuning and scaling are different things. Arms T20 was over tuned, T21 is about average as far as all tier sets are concerned, and you missed the point that Arms now is better than Fury was then, and neither specs were/are bad. Arms is currently upper/middle of the pack, which is in fact balanced.

    Arms was never "regarded as the pure ST spec with lesser or little sustained cleave abilities", quite the opposite in fact, Arms has always been the cleave spec, and in fact still has the advantage over Fury in that situation.
    show me a single log where arms outperforms fury on a multitarget fight in antorus please. quite the contrary. on high command arms gets outperformed by quite a chunk for example. and no, arms was NOT considered the cleave specc, i don't know how you would come to such a conclusion. i did raid endgame content from classic to mop and never has arms been superior in cleave encounters. not even close. i don't remember this beeing true for the vast majority of legion either.
    and arms does not have a lot of tools to scale a lot, haste beeing a lot worse for arms than it is for fury e.g.. arms hits major breakpoints very early on with medium increases in later stages.
    i never complained about balancing, i want smoother/more challenging gameplay that is as competitive/rewarding as 2 button + 1 filler rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    You could also argue that a flat damage buff is boring, hardly what I would describe as "altering your gameplay".
    as i explained earlier, using a new legendary and adding a new burst phase while keeping a base rotation is a lot more fresh then just removing half your bar in favour of whirlwind. if it was just a flat damage buff, yes i'd consider it boring aswell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    That would require completely retuning the whole spec, since nerfing either Execute or EP would change the priority. Quite frankly isn't going to happen, nor does it "need to"; go talent Overpower if you want more proc gameplay.
    you certainly have little faith in tuning after number alterations do you?
    ofc you don't need to, but you don't need to chance anything either, since we are fine. yet changes for the sake of enjoyment are always embraced by the community.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    You would if you liked the car better and realized that the performance of your car doesn't matter to anyone but yourself...
    your raid leader begs to differ


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    First off, there are three, not two, and there's significantly less than 5-20s between casts. Second, that's the base rotation for a reason, as legendaries and talents add more. Could Arms use an extra base button? Perhaps, but that's a far cry from "make a half dozen talents and activated abilities baseline". That removes choice from the equation and makes it harder to cut back to a simplified rotation for others.
    there are two, not three. it is mortal strike and collossus smash. cs has a 20 second cooldown with proccs that might or might not happen during that time. MS is ~5 seconds with proccs that might or might not happen. 5-20 seconds is the worst case scenario but not impossible.
    rend OR avatar and overpower are 2 talents that should be baseline not half a dozen. and oh yes, i want a more challenging rotation, that is for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Again, you seem to be missing the point that the intention is to allow you to build your own rotation - if you like more buttons, talent them, if you like simpler rotations, don't. Also Avatar was added in MoP and has always been a talent, so it is neither "iconic", nor was it removed from anything.
    you seem to be missing the point that that is completly wrong. talents should add options for different situations like dungeons, solo content or encounters that require a different set of skills all together. blizzard even stated that when they announced that some utility legendaries are intented for the same reasons (weight of the earth, najentus, KJ trinket, heal bracers, prydaz to name a few). i've to admit they did this reasonably well for a lot of talents, yet not for all.
    p.s.: by adding a 4 piece bonus that encourages players to specc into FoB and trauma, blizzard is certainly not incentivising players to try out new talent aswell.
    Last edited by Kitaen; 2018-01-16 at 07:47 AM.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    charging back in was and will always be intended design, i remember doing that since we have gotten charge in combat. as you said yourself, the arms swing timer is very forgiving and allows for such plays. i think it is obsolete to discuss if BS should or should not be a part of a ST rotation. different ppl different opinions.
    Leaving melee range and breaking the rotation in which to do so isn't. In fact they specifically broke the interaction in WoD (which was the first time it ever became part of the standard ST rotation), and only added it back in Legion after massive outcry.



    show me a single log where arms outperforms fury on a multitarget fight in antorus please. quite the contrary. on high command arms gets outperformed by quite a chunk for example. and no, arms was NOT considered the cleave specc, i don't know how you would come to such a conclusion. i did raid endgame content from classic to mop and never has arms been superior in cleave encounters. not even close. i don't remember this beeing true for the vast majority of legion either.
    and arms does not have a lot of tools to scale a lot, haste beeing a lot worse for arms than it is for fury e.g.. arms hits major breakpoints very early on with medium increases in later stages.
    Sweeping Strikes has always made Arms stronger than Fury in low target cleave. You're quite simply out of your mind if you think this is untrue.

    AHC is an AoE fight, not a cleave one. If the adds could be controlled in such a way as to easily remain in melee at all times, then Arms would rise significantly. That said, cleave is also defined as 2-3 targets, not the 5-6 which are commonly present on Mythic.

    Properly stacked Felhounds, and Mythic Kin'garoth are cleave fights, and they absolutely favor Arms.


    what flat damage buff? as i explained earlier, using a new legendary and adding a new burst phase while keeping a base rotation is a lot more fresh then just removing half your bar in favour of whirlwind.
    Great Storm's Eye, you know, the one that you were using last tier with Bladestorm/Ravager before replacing it with Archavon's this tier. Bladestorm didn't add any "new burst phase", it just replaced your normal abilities used during Battle Cry with Bladestorm (or alternately overlaid Ravager on top of them).

    you certainly have little faith in tuning after number alterations do you?
    ofc you don't need to, but you don't need to chance anything either, since we are fine. yet changes for the sake of enjoyment are always embraced by the community.
    I don't have little faith, I simply know how tuning works.

    your raid leader begs to differ
    Given the fact that you're playing Arms at all, I highly doubt you raid at a level in which your raid leader will care. If you do not, and yet he still does, I'd recommend finding a guild which will let you play a video game the way you want to play it.

    For the record, I played Fury throughout Tomb, during which it was objectively worse than Arms, and my guild finished US 16th/World 61st on a 9hr/wk schedule - clearly my choice in spec did not hold them back, DPS checks were never an issue, and my raid leader had no care as to what I wanted to play.

    there are two, not three. it is mortal strike and collossus smash. cs has a 20 second cooldown with proccs that might or might not happen during that time. MS is ~5 seconds with proccs that might or might not happen. 5-20 seconds is the worst case scenario but not impossible.
    You also press Whirlwind in there, which makes the primary rotation three buttons. So I say again, you're not going 5-20s without pressing a button, and even if you don't include Whirlwind for some reason, the average time between tactician procs is 7s, which is hardly a lot of time spent waiting around.

    you seem to be missing the point that that is completly wrong. talents should add options for different situations like dungeons, solo content or encounters that require a different set of skills all together. blizzard even stated that when they announced that some utility legendaries are intented for the same reasons (weight of the earth, najentus, KJ trinket, heal bracers, prydaz to name a few).
    i've to admit they did this reasonably well for a lot of talents, yet not for all.
    Your "point" is a borderline incoherent series of misguided and unfounded ideas, along with continually trying to walk back your statements, and ignoring the responses given to you.

    Arms talents do add options -
    • you have talents for AoE (Sweeping Strikes, Ravager),
    • talents which add proc gameplay (Overpower),
    • talents which add maintenance buffs (Rend),
    • talents which add more/frequent buffs (Avatar, Anger Management),
    • talents that simplify the rotation (Fervor, Titanic Might),
    • talents which complicate it (Focused Rage),
    • and talents which affect it passively (Dauntless, Trauma, Opportunity Strikes).

    Which is coincidentally the reason Arms' rotation has changed four times over the course of the expansion.

    Arms is literally a "build your own rotation" spec, which is exactly what the word options means. It has more gameplay options than any other spec, followed closely by Enhance Shaman. You can argue whether or not they're all tuned to appropriate levels, which would be completely valid, but an entirely separate conversation.

    I'm not interested in any more walls of text, so please don't multilevel quote this again. If you have a succinct statement, feel free to make it, but this point by point breakdown is useless. Nobody is forcing you into one playstyle or another anymore than anyone is forcing you to play Fury or reroll Windwalker, Arms does have a lot of fairly competitive options (there are players still using Ravager/Rend/GSE to great effect in Antorus), and making every talent you enjoy baseline is not a good way to also call for more attractive talent options.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Arms is literally a "build your own rotation" spec, which is exactly what the word options means. It has more gameplay options than any other spec, followed closely by Enhance Shaman. You can argue whether or not they're all tuned to appropriate levels, which would be completely valid, but an entirely separate conversation.

    Nobody is forcing you into one playstyle or another anymore than anyone is forcing you to play Fury or reroll Windwalker, Arms does have a lot of fairly competitive options (there are players still using Ravager/Rend/GSE to great effect in Antorus), and making every talent you enjoy baseline is not a good way to also call for more attractive talent options.
    i do not feel as arms is very build your own rotation friendly, but you have a lot of options for different scenarios and i appreciate that. i do not agree with you on options and build your own rotation is the same thing, just for the record. there are hardly effective talents to specc into if you want the best ST outcome (trauma, fob). that also is true for multitarget (ravager, sweepings). i would not mind if the overall arms rotation was a bit more demanding. it was fun at the start of the expansion when FR offered a lot of adaptive gameplay on the fly. it is pointless to specc into FR now when there is a much simpler and much more forgiving rotation that is even superior.

    my suggestions were merely a shift into a direction where arms has to make more choices while playing. such a having another procc with overpower and deciding if and when was the correct time to use it. adding a more frequent use of battle cry/BS via baseline anger management would also point towards a slightly proactive planning of when and how to time skills. the same holds true for ayalas, i am willing to bet i could balance ayalas with twice as many proccs while not buffing it overall within a day if i had the tools that blizzard does.
    i never claimed anything was balanced the way i suggested, neither were the suggestions thought out as "implement like this and we good". it is a list of things that could be adressed.

    p.s. i had multiple top 20 world finishes with arms when arms was not a as competitive as fury either. that does not mean i could'nt have done differently. beeing a very good player that is a cornerstone of your raid does not make an inferior specc better.
    you are right, it is a video game after all and you should play what you enjoy which is exactely the reason why i care about arms, not because i want more orange on warcraftlogs.
    Last edited by Kitaen; 2018-01-16 at 09:35 AM.

  15. #495
    There's always a "better" talent build. Just because it doesn't happen to be the one you like doesn't mean that it, or the spec as a whole is bad. FoB/Trauma is about as interesting as watching dung dry, but there are a great many players out there who enjoy simpler setups, and there's nothing wrong with having options which cater to them, regardless if it happens to end up best for a tier or not. Also, disabuse yourself of the notion that Blizzard decided this would be the FoB tier - they really don't balance that way.

  16. #496
    Just got Ayala+Archavon combo, ready to tear ass right here. I am not sure how to spend my Sudden Death procs though. If I have CS ready, do I buff the Execute, then (if Tactitian doesn't proc) Mortal Strike? Or do I Ex, then CS, then MS?

    And if CS is not ready, I feel like I should use it, but if Tactitian doesn't proc, do I WW until Tactitian, or MS right away?

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by VyersReaver View Post
    Just got Ayala+Archavon combo, ready to tear ass right here. I am not sure how to spend my Sudden Death procs though. If I have CS ready, do I buff the Execute, then (if Tactitian doesn't proc) Mortal Strike? Or do I Ex, then CS, then MS?

    And if CS is not ready, I feel like I should use it, but if Tactitian doesn't proc, do I WW until Tactitian, or MS right away?
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  18. #498
    Hello guys, i have a question, im struggling a little bit with my dps as arms, and checking some logs from top warriors i saw they have like 25-27 % haste, the q: is that the goal for arms with fob trauma build right now?, 65-70% mastery works?

    Thank you!

  19. #499
    Deleted
    Is trauma/titanic build somewhat viable atm? I really dislike rend...maybe I should go trauma/fob if trauma/titanic is not viable?
    Also, whats best for single target, trauma or avatar?
    Last edited by mmoce06fa6c78a; 2018-02-07 at 06:54 PM.

  20. #500
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by VyersReaver View Post
    Just got Ayala+Archavon combo, ready to tear ass right here. I am not sure how to spend my Sudden Death procs though. If I have CS ready, do I buff the Execute, then (if Tactitian doesn't proc) Mortal Strike? Or do I Ex, then CS, then MS?

    And if CS is not ready, I feel like I should use it, but if Tactitian doesn't proc, do I WW until Tactitian, or MS right away?
    Usually if Sudden Death procs and CS is on CD, I keep using WW and MS off CD until CS resets and then use CS and then Sudden Death. The reason for that is because if you consume your CS on your Sudden death proc, you have a high chance of resetting Tactician again when you use a free Execute attack since it still counts it as a 40 rage consumption. If it does proc (which tends to be most of the time) then I use CS again and then MS. However if tactician doesn't proc after using a CS with Sudden Death, I usually just use WW until CS comes off CD and then use MS.

    However in the unfortunate case that you get NO tact procs and CS is still on CD and the proc is about to run out (usually when there's like 1 second left) I just consume Sudden Death and then wait for CS to reset.

    I'm not saying this is the right way by the way, this is just how I do it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Trauma for single target. Avatar is more for AoE boss fights like Eonar and Antoran High Command and Mythic +

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