Absentee ballots burned in the NC GOP office fire

[Deleted]

Until there's any attempt to actually do that, you can't bring it up to defend voter ID laws in their current form.

All of what you posted should NOT be allowed. There should be agreed upon NATIONAL standards. I love state rights, but voting should fall under the guidance of the Federal govt. just like Passports do.

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This is just a fact, and if you disagree there is nothing at all to talk about.

Sure there is - the entire issue is workable. You don't let the states dictate the rules. You use federal guidance. You force the states to adhere to that. The states could still determine such things as early voting, but ALL voting would require an ID with a specific ID number (just like a passport). That way you could still have absentee ballots, mail-in ballots, etc.

[Fabray]

Anything that makes it harder to vote, Democrats would oppose. Anything that makes it easier to vote, Republicans would oppose. That alone should give you tremendous pause when it comes to supporting one party or the other, but when you figure out which effect any law would have, you know who would stop it from happening.

And states rights or some shit, they'd never let that happen anyway.

[Deleted]

Anything that makes it harder to vote, Democrats would oppose. Anything that makes it easier to vote, Republicans would oppose. That alone should give you tremendous pause when it comes to supporting one party or the other, but when you figure out which effect any law would have, you know who would stop it from happening.

And states rights or some shit, they'd never let that happen anyway.

You know, with your negative attitude it is no wonder you are resigned to accepting no Voter IDs. I don't "support" one party over the other. As I said, you can take this out of partisan hands.

[Wells]

Wrong - it is the Democrats and the illegal vote.

No use in going back and forth on this, this should NOT be a partisan issue. This is something that this entire country, regardless of political affiliation, should DEMAND of their elected representatives.

(BTW - I send a letter 2x a year to my US senators demanding this type of legislation.)

Then why aren't the GOP going to the efforts you describe to make IDs available? While increasing the requirements for voting they're also shutting down DMVs and increasing the documentation requirements for photo ID.

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That doesn't matter one bit. As an American you should be unwilling to accept ANY voter fraud - period.

Oh get off the high horse. One vote doesn't mean shit and no crime whatsoever is a ludicrous goal.

[Lynarii]

You're tilting at windmills there Ransath.

People are NOT against the idea of voter ID in general. Nobody is saying that they want fraud to happen. What people are saying is that reasonable voter ID laws that aren't targeted to disenfranchise legitimate voters aren't being proposed. If they were, I think most people /would/ be supportive of it.

As far as the OP goes, there's not too much to say about it, because the OP itself admits that they don't actually know what the laws around it are, and I don't think most of us do either. Hinting that some nefarious fraud is occurring without knowing for certain if there is anything out of the ordinary in the first place isn't really an interesting conversation, it's just a conspiracy rant. Now, if someone with legit knowledge of things comes on and can point out that it is in fact illegal for those to have been there, then we can have a discussion about what it means that they were.

[AndaliteBandit]

Then why aren't the GOP going to the efforts you describe to make IDs available? While increasing the requirements for voting they're also shutting down DMVs and increasing the documentation requirements for photo ID.

And why are so many of the states pushing more restrictive voter ID laws the states that historically tended to vote Republican, until they voted for Obama after record high minority turnout? North Carolina made no effort to even hide their true motivation, coincidentally the same state the OP is about.

[Kallisto]

Did you even read my original post? I said Voter ID's should be provided FREE OF CHARGE to all people that are 18 and a certified American citizen. The ID's should be funded by both Federal and State tax dollars. This would disenfranchise NO ONE.

And btw - ONE case of voter fraud is ONE too many.

Because even with your plan it would not cut down fraud from 31 potential occurrences over the years to 0. Want to know why, because out of those 31 potentials only 1 is even suspect of being anything more than A) Two people having the same name or B) A person sending out an early vote then ending up dead before the official election day. So essentially you have 1 potential vote and a huge cost on getting 300m+ people with a standardized federally recognized ID. Not just that but more and more would be needed every day. Increasing the tax burden over a non issue.

[Orbitus]

No, all arguments against Voter ID are bullshit.

I just gave you a very workable example for how to issue them. I also advocate that they should be FREE to qualified recipients.

Post some more and I will give you a workaround. Problems are solvable.

See, that is the problem though. You may have produced a workable solution so that both parties would be happy and everyone would willingly get voter IDs, but your party doesn't want that to happen. They have clearly come out and said SEVERAL TIMES that they have passed voter ID laws to get the Republican candidates' elected.

[Deleted]

You're tilting at windmills there Ransath.

People are NOT against the idea of voter ID in general. Nobody is saying that they want fraud to happen. What people are saying is that reasonable voter ID laws that aren't targeted to disenfranchise legitimate voters aren't being proposed. If they were, I think most people /would/ be supportive of it.

Here is your basic, reasonable voter ID law:

All US citizens that are 18 years of age that wish to vote in either Federal or State government elections are required to have a United States Voter ID. The ID is provided free of charge and may be obtained at any Unites States Post Office during normal business hours. The ID consists of only your full legal name, a 2x2 photograph, and a unique ID number. You are required by law to provide the ID when voting in person or to provide all information when submitting an absentee ballot.

The program could be run much like a US passport. Maybe renewable every 10 years (for updated pictures) ? You would be able to get a new one if you were to legally change your name, things of that nature. There would be nothing either "targeted" or "disenfranchising" about this at all.

It is definitely doable and should seriously be pursued. Just needs to be taken out of the hands of Congress and partisan politics.

[Xar226]

Did you even read my original post? I said Voter ID's should be provided FREE OF CHARGE to all people that are 18 and a certified American citizen. The ID's should be funded by both Federal and State tax dollars. This would disenfranchise NO ONE.

Categorically false. The ability to get an ID depends on numerous things, including but not limited to the availability and cost of any documents involved and the knowledge and ability to engage in the process to begin with. These issues have been shown, time and again, to disproportionately affect minority voters.

There may be some way to implement a voter ID system that honestly disenfranchises "no one," but you certainly haven't found it yet. You would need to do far, far more than simply subsidize the actual acquisition cost and have them at the post office. Do you have any idea how sparse post offices are in many parts of this country -- and getting sparser with each passing year? Do you have any idea how unreasonable the hours are for people who work? To even honestly contemplate such a solution, there would need to be an outreach and assistance program that rivals the $13 billion dollar decennial census -- and, wait, who is it who are least likely to be counted in a Census even when people are literally going door to door, coming directly you to try to count you? That's right: Blacks, hispanics and young people.

And btw - ONE case of voter fraud is ONE too many.

That's one of those things that sound great until you actually put any thought into it. One innocent man in prison is one too many! Sounds great right, who could disagree? Now how far are you willing to take it? Not having laws at all would ensure no innocent man goes to prison. Short of that, it's going to happen and the only intelligent discussion is about how to do our best to minimize the occurrences. There will never be zero. Pretending life is black and white or that there is a perfect solution to any complex problem is asinine.

Which brings us full circle: That any decision made with regard to voter ID laws needs to be done in a utilitarian fashion; it needs to produce the most good and the least harm possible. Any such discussion can only begin in one place: How big of a problem is in-person voter fraud and how many people would unjustly lose their right to vote if a given scheme was implemented. I've certainly seen no evidence that the former is larger than the latter, and my position is made accordingly. Sticking your head in the sand declaring how easy it would be over and over doesn't change any of those realities.

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On topic: This page suggests that the only person who can request an absentee ballot is the individual or a close relative, and that said ballots can not be retrieved in person. I have no reason to believe those rules would suddenly change for a GOP office.

That said, do we know whether it was ballots in the office or ballot request forms? The latter is no big deal; they can be printed right off the website and it is exactly the kind of thing I would expect local field offices to have on hand.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

No, all arguments against Voter ID are bullshit.

I just gave you a very workable example for how to issue them. I also advocate that they should be FREE to qualified recipients.

Post some more and I will give you a workaround. Problems are solvable.

Allright...here's a problem...who's going to pay for this program?

[jimboa24]

But GOP will never allow that. since that doesnt stop blacks etc from voting

Bullshit. If anything, the DNC won't allow it, since it will prevent illegal immigrants from voting. There are a lot of black republicans you know. But only the DNC tries to court the illegal immigrant vote.

[Deleted]

including but not limited to the availability and cost of any documents involved and the knowledge and ability to engage in the process to begin with. These issues have been shown, time and again, to disproportionately affect minority voters.

Why is it that folks like you automatically think "minorities" are fucking idiots and incapable of doing anything? Why is it that only "whites" are smart enough to figure out how to do things? BTW - you left out the elderly. I always hear how it disenfranchises them as well. /rolleyes

There may be some way to implement a voter ID system that honestly disenfranchises "no one," but you certainly haven't found it yet. You would need to do far, far more than simply subsidize the actual acquisition cost and have them at the post office. Do you have any idea how sparse post offices are in many parts of this country -- and getting sparser with each passing year? Do you have any idea how unreasonable the hours are for people who work?

i never claimed I had found THE solution - I was just offering a possibility. All YOU offered was complete negativity and and "it will never work" rhetoric. I especially like this - "Do you have any idea how unreasonable the hours are for people who work?" Are you fucking serious? Do you make time to go to the doctor? Do you make time to go to lunch? Do you make time to go to the fucking DMV? What kind of idiotic excuse is that? Besides which, most PO's are open on Saturday's.

Honestly, it is people like you that prevent things from getting done. You would rather sit around and complain than try to find solutions.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Try reading the thread. I already answered that.

You said Federal and State Tax money...but that money already goes towards other programs...so to cover yours:

1) Taxes will have to go up
2) Other programs will have to have their budgets reduced
3) Some combination of the two

So, How exactly is this program of your going to be paid for?

You gonna tell Joe Taxpayer he has to pay more taxes to stop voter fraud even though studies have shown that it is statistically irrelevant?

[Deleted]

You said Federal and State Tax money...but that money already goes towards other programs...so to cover yours:

1) Taxes will have to go up
2) Other programs will have to have their budgets reduced
3) Some combination of the two

So, How exactly is this program of your going to be paid for?

You gonna tell Joe Taxpayer he has to pay more taxes to stop voter fraud even though studies have shown that it is statistically irrelevant?

Again, nothing but negativity. I have no fucking clue exaclty how it would be paid for, but I am sure it could be worked out. We have thousands of other programs that have worked out just fine. Maybe we do cut funding on some programs to pay for it. Quite a few people in this country agree on Voter ID's. As to your "studies" comment...

Voter Fraud: We’ve Got Proof It’s Easy

He fought in World War II. He died in 2014. And he just registered to vote in Va.

CBS4 Investigation Finds Dead Voters Casting Ballots In Colorado

State investigating allegations of voter fraud in Tarrant

Question for you, though. Why the fuck do you care? You are a Canadian. It doesn't effect you one bit.

[Deleted]

Even in our 3rd world country, Croatia, we have voter ID. Thats a common sense to do. 1 fraud vote is already an attack on democracy.

[Kallisto]

Even in our 3rd world country, Croatia, we have voter ID. Thats a common sense to do. 1 fraud vote is already an attack on democracy.

In the UK we don't need ID and we have no issues regarding possible voter fraud because frankly the Risks are too high, the punishments are high and the rewards are just not going to happen in your favour.

[Hif]

Voting in this country should require an ID, period. Any argument contrary to that is just complete and total bullshit. All voter ID cards should be subsidized at both the Federal and State level. Every person that is 18 and a certified American citizen should be able to obtain a Voter ID card free of charge from their state election board. Period, end of story, not open for debate.

Completely agree. The Obama administration should have the legal right to issue ID cards to people so they can vote. Specifically at a federal level to ensure racism and disenfranchisement as proven at the state level does not occur.

[Deleted]

Which brings up another question. Are the rules in NC so different that political parties have access to blank absentee ballots? Do they distribute the ballots (and get to decide who DOESN'T get the ballots)? How do they determine that the person receiving the ballot hasn't already voted?

You know you have to request an absentee ballot?

[Underverse]

Voting in this country should require an ID, period. Any argument contrary to that is just complete and total bullshit. All voter ID cards should be subsidized at both the Federal and State level. Every person that is 18 and a certified American citizen should be able to obtain a Voter ID card free of charge from their state election board. Period, end of story, not open for debate.

I would go further and say that we should just be required by law to get an ID at 18, seeing as how we're required to register for the draft as it is.