Affliction Fatal Echoes

[Sheevah24]

Now with these changes to how Unstable Affliction works,not stacking and all... Does "Fatal Echoes" (The chance for UA to reapply itself) actually have a chance to proc from each UA expiring? Has anyone got this trait to actually test it?
If the answer is yes,we're talking about a considerable DPS buff behind the scenes because i don't remember much talk going on about it .

P.S Whoever thought of Disabling click-targetting from Enemy Grid is just a moron. This is game breaking for Affliction. Next is to disable player targetting from raid frames so that healers have more fun playing...

[Nadiru]

Why would it be a massive buff? Before it was a 6% chance to reapply a quadruple-stacked UA as opposed to a 6% chance to reactivate each individual UA. Wouldn't it just be a move on the damage output away from damage spikes towards more consistent damage?

[Tehterokkar]

They(read=Blizzard) broke Enemygrid for the same reason they have broken other addons, it becomes a necessity to play. It really isn't much harder to click on the nameplates to apply a DoT.

[noaim]

Why would it be a massive buff? Before it was a 6% chance to reapply a quadruple-stacked UA as opposed to a 6% chance to reactivate each individual UA. Wouldn't it just be a move on the damage output away from damage spikes towards more consistent damage?

UA damage didnt stack like that. If you cast UA, then a new one so that it landed when the first had 50% duration left, you would get a UA that was 50% longer, dealing normal damage the first 33%, double damage the middle 33% and normal damage the last 33%. That means, since it procced on expiration, it could never give more than a normal UA, the last one you actually cast to be specific. Now it can refresh each UA and I notice quite a difference to be honest. I try to stack my UA's, then no matter the amount of stacks, I pop the artifact ability to double the chance for refreshing. I dont have any numbers, but it seems to work very good.

[Sheevah24]

Why would it be a massive buff? Before it was a 6% chance to reapply a quadruple-stacked UA as opposed to a 6% chance to reactivate each individual UA. Wouldn't it just be a move on the damage output away from damage spikes towards more consistent damage?

I didn't say a "massive" buff,but it definitely will be a considerable buff. Answer is given from "noaim" above!

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They(read=Blizzard) broke Enemygrid for the same reason they have broken other addons, it becomes a necessity to play. It really isn't much harder to click on the nameplates to apply a DoT.

Yes Enemy Grid (or similar addons) is a necessity for not only Affliction warlocks but others as well. Maybe a Bit more for warlocks because of how Agony works.
And no, i can NOT keep a proper rotation by manually hunting mobs with my cursor every 2-3 seconds if there's more than 3 targets. Plus,if they are all stacked,it gets "hard" because of how nameplates move . And don't let me get started on Tab-targetting.

[Deleted]

Why would it be a massive buff? Before it was a 6% chance to reapply a quadruple-stacked UA as opposed to a 6% chance to reactivate each individual UA. Wouldn't it just be a move on the damage output away from damage spikes towards more consistent damage?

Because (a) UA did not really work that way and (b) you are speaking of a situation in which you shard-dump as many UA's as possible which meant you did not doing that often

This IS a buff to Fatal Echoes, not amazing, but decent, which is good becaus eit was a really shit trait

The cynic in me though keeps saying "I bet they didn;t even realise it"

That last-minute buff to the Doomguard kinda says they did not realise that each individual UA would apply the stacking buff to Shadow Bite lol

We've been there before, they managed to "overlook" how powerful demo was going to be prepatch because of the vast numbers of imps which in turn procced vast number sof extra demons via the class armour/trinket bonuses - that soon got hotfixed of course.

[Jessicka]

How often are you stacking multiple UAs, and why? I presume Contagion is still the go to. The reason UA stacks is to prevent munching, as used to happen with Ignite; there isn't really a good reason to do it outside of short term procs and influxes of shards. Given that, I really don't see why you're thinking it would be a significant buff, when it's mostly only really mitigating rare occurrences of reapplying as FE procs and allowing you to focus a target instead of spraying UAs around to use up Shards without losing FE procs, which again are only a 6% chance anyway.

[Bjarkan]

How often are you stacking multiple UAs, and why? I presume Contagion is still the go to. The reason UA stacks is to prevent munching, as used to happen with Ignite; there isn't really a good reason to do it outside of short term procs and influxes of shards. Given that, I really don't see why you're thinking it would be a significant buff, when it's mostly only really mitigating rare occurrences of reapplying as FE procs and allowing you to focus a target instead of spraying UAs around to use up Shards without losing FE procs, which again are only a 6% chance anyway.

Hm i see Fatal Echoes just like Soulsnatcher. Yeah sure, is a lot less %, but if each UA in the target had the chance to proc, the proc become something like 30% (dont sure about the number). And there is a slim chance of having 5 UA reapplying itself 5/5 (sure, very dificult, but there numbers says it could happen), then is something good.

And, while Soulsnatcher could make us lose SS in procs, FE would not, as it procs when UA expire, and apply another UA, not refund the SS. In a way, is like a safety trigger in case we dont have SS for bad procs of Agony (tho, we could wasting procs anyway, is a lot less probable).

Now, i think the only reason for stack UA is for burn down priority targets, sure, and this could be not be useful for Contagion, as we need it keep a less one UA on the target for the benefit, but FE also help us in this if the fight had no adds and bad RNG... Just think about it, UA reapplying itself also keep Contagion on, again, nothing that impressive, but is better then nothing i guess.

In the end, its not like FE would be that important in our DPS, but right now is a nice trait to have, i guess.

[Jessicka]

Hm i see Fatal Echoes just like Soulsnatcher. Yeah sure, is a lot less %, but if each UA in the target had the chance to proc, the proc become something like 30% (dont sure about the number). And there is a slim chance of having 5 UA reapplying itself 5/5 (sure, very dificult, but there numbers says it could happen), then is something good.

And the odds of having multiple shards to apply multiple stacks of UA become vanishingly slim with each stack though. Obviously this chance increases with Agonies you have up across multiple targets, but again, the buff just means you can pump them all into a priority target without losing chances of FE. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever to the odds of FE procs whether you have 5 on one target, or 5 spread between 5 targets which is how you'd deal with the 'problem' pre-change. That's what I'm getting at. It's not so much a straight buff as a QoL fix.

[Bjarkan]

And the odds of having multiple shards to apply multiple stacks of UA become vanishingly slim with each stack though. Obviously this chance increases with Agonies you have up across multiple targets, but again, the buff just means you can pump them all into a priority target without losing chances of FE. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever to the odds of FE procs whether you have 5 on one target, or 5 spread between 5 targets which is how you'd deal with the 'problem' pre-change. That's what I'm getting at. It's not so much a straight buff as a QoL fix.

And i understand that, and say it too in other way... FE in a priority target with 5 UA stacked, have a nice chance of extend the duration of Contagion, as Contagion only buff our damage for 1 UA (it would be intresting a stacking Contagion mechanic, damage balanced of course... This may be would be a solution too our ST problem? Or maybe too OP with FE and Soul Conducit?). And maybe a little more of damage now, with the new CH, a extend UA duration means more chances of procs.

[Jessicka]

And i understand that, and say it too in other way... FE in a priority target with 5 UA stacked, have a nice chance of extend the duration of Contagion, as Contagion only buff our damage for 1 UA (it would be intresting a stacking Contagion mechanic, damage balanced of course... This may be would be a solution too our ST problem? Or maybe too OP with FE and Soul Conducit?). And maybe a little more of damage now, with the new CH, a extend UA duration means more chances of procs.

It doesn't fix it ST, because you don't have anywhere even close to 100% up time on UA because you do not have that level of Soul Shard generation which is the main limiting factor. If you can't have 100% up time, how can you possibly keep 5 stacks of UA up? It's simply not possible. Just think of UA as how Haunt used to work, particularly if you're specced into Contagion as then it becomes exactly how it works.

[Bjarkan]

It doesn't fix it ST, because you don't have anywhere even close to 100% up time on UA because you do not have that level of Soul Shard generation which is the main limiting factor. If you can't have 100% up time, how can you possibly keep 5 stacks of UA up? It's simply not possible. Just think of UA as how Haunt used to work, particularly if you're specced into Contagion as then it becomes exactly how it works.

My idea was something like: "Contagion: Improve UA making all dots affecting the target increase their damage by X%, stack Y times" that was i tryed to say... And it was just a thought for something intresting, because it make us prepare for burst pharse in wich we could boost our single target damage... It would be something like "keep UA in 1 charge for boost your other dots, burst all in trinkets procs" or something, i dont really say it would be the ultimate solution for Affly, just say it would be a intresting mechanic, thats all.

Yes and no. Yes, Contagion make UA works like the old Haunt, but also lock our best damage dealer spell, as we need stack UA if we want it do good damage. But is like you say, we cant had UA on 100% uptime because procs on SS, and i think this is the reason behind Contagion nerf. 15% increase damage make ppl to hold on stacking UA on the target for boost the other dots, making UA more a debuff then a dot. Right now, for this kind of gameplay, is better specc into Mana Tap, is MORE EASY to keep 100% uptime, AND let you stack UA. 12% damage increase vs 10% damage increase, is not a hard loss, but if we think that MT release the debuffing condition on UA, then maybe the DPS difference between talents get reducce.

[Jessicka]

Where are you getting the idea that you need to stack UAs?

[Bjarkan]

For UA do very serious damage? You need it... Well, now is more like "put up to 5 different UA in a target", but the thing is UA is Affly hard hitter, even more then 20xAgony, but only when is stacked. Is a waste of DPS dont let your hard hitter do its full damage. Now, the problem is stack UA, and there i give you all the right.

[Jessicka]

For UA do very serious damage? You need it... Well, now is more like "put up to 5 different UA in a target", but the thing is UA is Affly hard hitter, even more then 20xAgony, but only when is stacked. Is a waste of DPS dont let your hard hitter do its full damage. Now, the problem is stack UA, and there i give you all the right.

I don't understand what you're saying.

Your UA and Contagion up time is limited by Shard accumulation. You want to maximise Contagion up time by maximising your UA up time, which means not stacking UA unless you absolutely have to.

Secondly, if you do spam UA like a nuke, then save up 5 more Shards to spray in some kind of burn phase like old-school Chaos Bolts, you will very probably have capped Compounding Horror stacks and therefore lost many of them. This is a significant DPS loss. Again, this is resolved by spacing your UA casts so as not to cap CH stacks.

There is nothing to be gained by stacking UA unless you have an over-abundant income of Shards, which typically only happens from spreading Agony around - with which you would probably normally want to spread UAs around rather than stack them into one target. Or if you have a very specific burn phase in an encounter for which you were saving resources because the thing absolutely has to die within a small window.

The amount of damage from 5x UA is exactly the same whether they're stacked or consecutively cast, unless they're cast within a short term +damage period like a trinket proc.

[Bjarkan]

I don't understand what you're saying.

Your UA and Contagion up time is limited by Shard accumulation. You want to maximise Contagion up time by maximising your UA up time, which means not stacking UA unless you absolutely have to.

Secondly, if you do spam UA like a nuke, then save up 5 more Shards to spray in some kind of burn phase like old-school Chaos Bolts, you will very probably have capped Compounding Horror stacks and therefore lost many of them. This is a significant DPS loss. Again, this is resolved by spacing your UA casts so as not to cap CH stacks.

There is nothing to be gained by stacking UA unless you have an over-abundant income of Shards, which typically only happens from spreading Agony around - with which you would probably normally want to spread UAs around rather than stack them into one target. Or if you have a very specific burn phase in an encounter for which you were saving resources because the thing absolutely has to die within a small window.

The amount of damage from 5x UA is exactly the same whether they're stacked or consecutively cast, unless they're cast within a short term +damage period like a trinket proc.

Lets start from zero... I was saying that a intresting mechanic for Contagion could it be that stack along why UA, meaning the damage increase was something 12%*5 a max number of charges, for say random numbers. UA is, from the very begining, the most damaging spell of Affly, but only when is fully stacked. We know is really hard stack UA, and because of this, and the way Contagion actually works, its better dont take risk stacking UA, but reapplying it one after another for buff our DPS trought Contagion. The idea behind the nerf of Contagion was this, because is a way of play with UA that was not the one devs want. So, again, my idea of a Contagion stack mechanic is for a way to make us use our best hard hitter spell in the way it should be use, and in the same time, be reward for it, because we know it would be very difficult to accomplish in ST enveriorement (AKA, without any adds of anykind).

Stacking CH is not that important anymore, as right now only do a instant damage when a new UA is apply. Or a least is what i understand for the new CH, dont really have tested yet.

Sure, UA damage is the same stacked or placed one UA after the previous one expire, but applying 5 at once is a way to nuke the target, something we need because our high ram up time, and this is a way i see for it become high rewardly if it played with the stacking mechanic. For only using one UA after another, we always can take Mana Tap, is more easy to keep up 100% uptime.

[Deleted]

Yes, it is a slight buff compared to how it worked before. The real question is how it interacts with Reap Souls, since UA is one of the few if not the only DoT in the game that still snapshots, I'm really curious to see if you need to have Reap Souls up when the debuff fades for Reap to affect Fatal Echoes or if it is "imprinted" on the DoT upon casting it (with Reap up, of course).

[Sheevah24]

Yes, it is a slight buff compared to how it worked before. The real question is how it interacts with Reap Souls, since UA is one of the few if not the only DoT in the game that still snapshots, I'm really curious to see if you need to have Reap Souls up when the debuff fades for Reap to affect Fatal Echoes or if it is "imprinted" on the DoT upon casting it (with Reap up, of course).

While not being 100% sure,as i've also read that UA snapshots, my logic says it would be "imprinted" upon the buffs applying it while casting the spell.
But we can't really test that...can we? I mean yes you could have FE and try it out 100 times but RNG is still RNG,only blizz could verify.