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  1. #1
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    Post Why is Subtlety unpopular?

    Hello brethren Uncrowned.


    Today I was looking to logs in Heroic Nythendra and noticed, while there are 25k parses of Assasination and 9k parses of Outlaw, there are only 2'5k parses for Subtlety.

    Why is Subtlety the less played spec, by far?

    Maybe the artifact weapon is boring?

    Maybe Assasination is the FOTM?

    Maybe the spec is hard to play or has a boring rotation?

    Discuss.

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Assass is fotm and people aren't willing to learn the more difficult spec, which is sub IMO. It's not hard, but it's certainly more involved than the other two by far.

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  3. #3
    Sin is simply the most consistent rogue spec in both pvp and pve. Has nothing to do with it being "FOTM", the other two just don't perform as well in either content, unless RNG gods are in your favor.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinte View Post
    Sin is simply the most consistent rogue spec in both pvp and pve. Has nothing to do with it being "FOTM", the other two just don't perform as well in either content, unless RNG gods are in your favor.
    I agree with Sin being the FOTM. But why are there 4x people playing Outlaw over Subtlety? Why people didnt choose Subtlety as their main when Legion, or even the prepatch, rolled?

  5. #5
    because assa is a bit better currently and much much more forgiving
    but once we have access to boots
    get higher ilvl weapons
    and akari's soul gets fixed we'll start surpassing them i believe

  6. #6
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    I understand why there are 10x more parses of Sin than Sub. You would think that then, Outlaw and Sub are equal in the number of parses. But this isnt the case. There 4 times more parses of Outlaw than Sub. Subtlety is barely played, at least in a raid environment.

  7. #7
    Outlaw was originally the best spec till later Ilvls (due to outlaw scaling poorly). Sub was supposed to be the better choice when full mythic gear. Assassination got a buff to then get ahead.

    Sub also seems challenging for the average player, it is also less appealing then being a pirate or an assassin. It isn't a challenging spec but with the perspective that it is and that it isn't as appealing caused it to be played less.

    The top players are going to pick the best spec for the situation. If assassin didn't get a buff then you would see more Sub rogues.

    I was scared to go sub on my alt as it was off putting, it is now my favorite of the three specs.

  8. #8
    High Overlord neozz1's Avatar
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    Subtlety doesn't perform or out perform the other specs until higher gear level. A lot of people got legendaries etc. which make it feel more painful to play other specs too.

    For me it took Sub bracers and 871 ilvl to finally get Sub to Sim close to Assassination (both 24-26 artifact) (Sub being about 3k lower still). In practice (I need more still) I usually still do 10-15k more as Assassination.

    Opinions:
    Sub is harder to play/master
    Sub feels a bit more clunky
    It feels really painful when mid dance and you get RNG mechanic'ed

    Knowing Sub as for right now will still sim higher later I would imagine more people will slowly switch to it or practice it more as time goes on. For me I randomly practice it when on a farm boss and for now I plan to keep my Loot Spec set to Sub. (Currently 871 ish ilvl and EN 1/7 Mythic)

  9. #9
    Because i have legendary sin bracers, at 30% health i pop exsanguinate + vendetta and mobs melt

    Btw i'm 860 (alt) and i've set loot to sub because i want to try it properly once i get 2nd golden (akaari) and hopefully get a orange for that
    Last edited by D3athsting; 2016-11-07 at 04:22 PM.
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  10. #10
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    I miss the days when people played what they enjoyed, not what is just currently "top" spec :\

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by FluxAureo View Post
    I understand why there are 10x more parses of Sin than Sub. You would think that then, Outlaw and Sub are equal in the number of parses. But this isnt the case. There 4 times more parses of Outlaw than Sub. Subtlety is barely played, at least in a raid environment.
    People still playing outlaw most likely have legendary specific to outlaw. It is hard to drop a spec that you are already geared for

  12. #12
    need more stuff and a fucking huge amount of artifact point to perform well.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by neozz1 View Post
    Subtlety doesn't perform or out perform the other specs until higher gear level. A lot of people got legendaries etc. which make it feel more painful to play other specs too.
    But Subtlety outperforms Outlaw, yet only 7% of Heroic Nythendra are Sub parses. People prefer to play Outlaw over Subtlety and I cant understand why.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by telygroar View Post
    need more stuff and a fucking huge amount of artifact point to perform well.
    So the problem is that, without Finality/Akaari and 870+ ilvl the spec is not competitive?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Steik View Post
    I miss the days when people played what they enjoyed, not what is just currently "top" spec :\
    Im enjoying Subtlety since the Legion Prepatch

  14. #14
    For Mythic raiding Assassination does the same damage as Sub (if not more) and is strong at multi-dotting.

    For WQs, Mythic dungeons, pretty much anything else, Outlaw is strong because of its cleave.

    Both Outlaw and Assassin are easier to play than Sub (a bit).

    Sub might scale better, but for now it is understandably less popular.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Steik View Post
    I miss the days when people played what they enjoyed, not what is just currently "top" spec :\
    You can't use an underperforming spec in mythic raiding/myth + unless your guild does that content in heavy farm mode
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbadubba View Post
    Outlaw was originally the best spec till later Ilvls (due to outlaw scaling poorly). Sub was supposed to be the better choice when full mythic gear. Assassination got a buff to then get ahead.

    Sub also seems challenging for the average player, it is also less appealing then being a pirate or an assassin. It isn't a challenging spec but with the perspective that it is and that it isn't as appealing caused it to be played less.

    The top players are going to pick the best spec for the situation. If assassin didn't get a buff then you would see more Sub rogues.

    I was scared to go sub on my alt as it was off putting, it is now my favorite of the three specs.
    I thought sub was suppose to be like a ninja though? I guess its not as obvious as outlaw being YAAARR PIRATE(..) but the spec gave me that impression. I always thought it was the coolest of the specs really.

  17. #17
    High Overlord neozz1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluxAureo View Post
    But Subtlety outperforms Outlaw, yet only 7% of Heroic Nythendra are Sub parses. People prefer to play Outlaw over Subtlety and I cant understand why.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So the problem is that, without Finality/Akaari and 870+ ilvl the spec is not competitive?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Im enjoying Subtlety since the Legion Prepatch
    Sub does not outperform Outlaw at lower gear levels and A LOT of people have Outlaw legendaries because that was going to be the GO TO spec when legion launched, pre nerfs.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    For Mythic raiding Assassination does the same damage as Sub (if not more) and is strong at multi-dotting.

    For WQs, Mythic dungeons, pretty much anything else, Outlaw is strong because of its cleave.

    Both Outlaw and Assassin are easier to play than Sub (a bit).

    Sub might scale better, but for now it is understandably less popular.
    Check the 10th percentile parses for normal (largest available number of logs).



    4x people prefer to bring Outlaw to raid rather than Subtlety. Is Subtlety a Jack of All Trades, Master of None spec?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grabacr View Post
    I thought sub was suppose to be like a ninja though? I guess its not as obvious as outlaw being YAAARR PIRATE(..) but the spec gave me that impression. I always thought it was the coolest of the specs really.
    Vengeance Demon Hunter feel more ninja to me TBH.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by neozz1 View Post
    Sub does not outperform Outlaw at lower gear levels and A LOT of people have Outlaw legendaries because that was going to be the GO TO spec when legion launched, pre nerfs.
    Just checked Wlogs for a varying number of ilvls. You're right, Subtlety at 840 ilvl is horrible. Guess that there is an ilvl/Artifact gating which puts down most people to play the spec.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    You can't use an underperforming spec in mythic raiding/myth + unless your guild does that content in heavy farm mode
    Or if you're not top10 or if your guild is casual or many other reasons.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grabacr View Post
    I thought sub was suppose to be like a ninja though? I guess its not as obvious as outlaw being YAAARR PIRATE(..) but the spec gave me that impression. I always thought it was the coolest of the specs really.
    Outlaw is the pirate indeed.
    Assassin is... Well, the assassin.
    Sublety is the ninja.

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