Why is Subtlety unpopular?

[Xanatu]

Because people are playing whatever is strongest at the present time. At release it was outlaw, currently it's assassination. Sub is very very good and more fun than either, but "fun" doesn't seem to figure into the thinking of most raiders since they only care about logs.

Sub being "fun" is obviously subjective and I don't think many people would agree with you about it, hence its continued lack of popularity.

[Deleted]

Sub being "fun" is obviously subjective and I don't think many people would agree with you about it, hence its continued lack of popularity.

So your assumption trumps mine? Good to know...

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There never were such a time.

Yeah there was.

[Fang7986]

Because WoW players are about as far from subtle as you can get.

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There never were such a time.

the vast majority of players (the casuals) do play what they enjoy, they are also the players that rarely go to forums or sites like MMO however

[plato13]

Because people are playing whatever is strongest at the present time. At release it was outlaw, currently it's assassination. Sub is very very good and more fun than either, but "fun" doesn't seem to figure into the thinking of most raiders since they only care about logs.

Mastering a more complicated dps specc is fun if you are rewarded for it in terms of higher damage for example. but putting alot of effort into your specc and still underperforming compared to a 3 button specc is not fun.

and in the current tier sub just wasnt worth the it.
what killed the specc for me was when they removed the shadowdance bar. i didnt rly bother with picking it back up after they announced to put it back in.

[Crispin]

So your assumption trumps mine? Good to know...

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Yeah there was.

Be more specific.

[TheWindWalker]

Yeah there was.

You're right, there was a beta period before WoW was released. Once Molten Core came out, though, it became a bedrock policy that "if this spec can't do something worth bringing it for, you'd better either be 'a warm body' for our 40man or be in the process of farming your new main weapons."

[Crispin]

Because WoW players are about as far from subtle as you can get.

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the vast majority of players (the casuals) do play what they enjoy, they are also the players that rarely go to forums or sites like MMO however

As the OP were talking raid logs, I assumed that were werent talking the non raiding crowd, There were no ret/prot paladins in MC, no Ferals/boomkins, no shadowpriests etc etc. At no point were all specs viable for raiding that didnt had the headline "lets not kill anything"

[Strah]

Sub feels extremely clunky. There's no flow in the rotation like there is with assassination.

[Deleted]

it underperforms despite needing 20x the actions to do the 'right' rotation compared to the other specs.

As a sub player (i swapped after the initial outlaw nerf) I am constantly asked to maybe swap to assassination by my mythic raiding guild, when I point out I'm doing competetive damage they begrudginly bugger off but at times I ask myself, why am I still swimming against the current.

[bubbadubba]

Which is odd in a way since sin and sub have always been sort of backwards in regards to the class fantasies. Poisoning someone is a comparatively "subtle" way to murder someone, whearas leaping from the shadows and driving two feet of steel into someone's rib cage is more in keeping with one's notion of the "Assassin".

I do agree with this lol

I think they both fit the fantasy of ninja which is why they seem like the same to me. I think the one they should have renamed was Sub over Outlaw/combat.

[bloodmoth13]

I really wanted to love it, but i just dont...

I think the spec has some needless complexity in it, more specifically maintainence that is difficult to appreciate.

That, and im bitter that my own personal fantasy for rogues never came true and im just being a little bitch about the whole affair :P

I like the thematic direction, i love outlaw, but i just dont really enjoy new sub... though i havent played it in a long time

[PessimiStick]

it underperforms despite needing 20x the actions to do the 'right' rotation compared to the other specs.

As a sub player (i swapped after the initial outlaw nerf) I am constantly asked to maybe swap to assassination by my mythic raiding guild, when I point out I'm doing competetive damage they begrudginly bugger off but at times I ask myself, why am I still swimming against the current.

Outlaw is higher APM than Sub or Mut.

The real issue is that Sub can't compete currently unless you have the boots. Mutilate is just flatly better if RNGeesus doesn't love you.

[ymirsson]

Yeah there was.

Yeah, there was, it's called "my first char in any MMO" and ends quickly in most cases.

[Deleted]

Love all these people that think that the only way to play is the current FOTM spec. Stop being the human centipede and eating the shit the guy in front tells you too.

[ymirsson]

You're definitely too edgy for a MMO.

[Maelstrom51]

Assassination is just plain better for raiding until very high gear levels or until you get the legendary boots.

There you have it.

[Vantro]

When Outlaw got nerfed going into the first week of Mythic, we had a choice to make and most people chose Assassination for it's simplicity and lack of AP needed to do well. I chose Sub thinking the tier would last longer, and therefore the scaling would be more relevant. Xavius fell the first week, there was no need for the scaling of Sub and newer/less progressed players saw how Assassination was doing and mimicked it. It's an attractive spec, from looking at logs, and I'm envious at times that I didn't choose to go with it.

Now at 882, Sub is doing well. It's got a lot of latency issues that go along with it to make some of the tight windows. Playing at 80ms(live) vs 20ms(PTR) is noticeable for me. I find it actually exceptional in M+ with the Legendary Cloak, I'm able to do decent/top AoE in 10s+ while constantly being #1 on Single Target the majority of the time. It's downside is just 2-3 target cleave.

It's got a slightly bigger learning curve, but it becomes second nature and worrying about keeping your buff up is a non-issue with boots + relics. I encourage people to give it a try, because it's quite fun. I played Assassination during the entire beta cycle, for reference.

[Abalon]

872 with lege boots can I get a substantial increase in dps by switching to assination? 31 on relic too name is abdel on thrall

I'll play whatever gets me higher numbers

[Logwyn]

There never were such a time.

Molten Core says hello. And the mage spamming fireball or just wanding... Fury tanking...fun times

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

Outlaw is higher APM than Sub or Mut.

What's with people saying this? imo, the higher the APM the more boring the spec is.
I guess people have fun spamming 2 buttons and pushing others because the game prompts you to.

I like sub because it's fun for me to plan out my abilities and how to use
I tried all 3 specs - Outlaw in the beginning, Sin for heroic, then switched to sub after I got bored.

Sub had the front-end damage of outlaw, the DoT upkeep and energy pooling of a sin, with CD management and on-the-fly decision making. This spec hit all the good spots for me. Doing pretty good on the meters too. Now if I can get my hands on those boots... I'd smash the 1-2 guys that beat me in my raid.