Sin VS Outlaw in raids/mythic+

[Wickedseraph]

I was going to search the forums for simliar threads but I didnt see a search option at the botton. Im fairly tired so if i missed it i apologize. Onto my question.

I just hit 110. Havent commited to Sin or Outlaw yet. Was leaning to sin but after some reading im doubting. My focus will be raids and then mythic+ when im not raiding for gear. Ive read some conflicting reports and im super confused. I read that Outlaw is better for M+ because of AOE being stronger. I read somewhere that Sin mastery stacked can actually surpass Outlaw on AOE by deadly poison FOK then spreading Rupture. From what i saw Outlaw is below Sin ST. Can someone provide some actual numbers or answers? I want to useful and viable as our raid kind of suffers from low DPS. I enjoy both specs. Outlaw turned out much more fun than i thought it would be. Thanks all.

[Tengokuq]

Outlaw's great for a starter, the best of the 3 specs. Once you hit 860-870, I'd say switch to Sin or Sub if you get the boots

[Aeon-]

There are threads on page one of this sub forum all about Outlaw and Sin within Mythic+ ect

[Deleted]

I've tried all 3 and I prefer assasination by far. Especially for raiding. In myhic+ assasination is viable thanks to bag of tricks but it's rng based. Big burst on bosses is a big plus as well. I'm not a fan of outlaw's rng.

[Umbrex]

Outlaw is terrible to play, due to it's RNG nature ..sure you can get lucky and get 6 RTB on a single boss, but that happens one out of a million.

Normally you're stuck explaining to your raidleader that your dps is bad now because you had to reroll for 2 buffs 5 times or more (which happens 1 out of 2-3 bosses)

I started out as outlaw and was salty AF for a solid 10 days after the nerf, so i respecced to assassination and tbh, i am so glad i did. Great spec for both raiding and higher mythic+.

Sub scales better according to sims around 880+ which means in Nighthold sub will be strongest in terms of dps.

When i once in a while try and go back to outlaw i instantly go into "fuck-this-shit-mode" when i hit a bad roll streak.

[Wickedseraph]

Whats the spec for Sin? Or is there a guide somewhere on this forum for it? All ive read so far is icy veins and it is hit or miss on accuracy

[Umbrex]

Whats the spec for Sin? Or is there a guide somewhere on this forum for it? All ive read so far is icy veins and it is hit or miss on accuracy

not allowed to post links, but youtube nattle

imo he has the best guides for assassination, both opener, gear and rotation is covered in depth

basically

crit(cap, super important) to 43%unbuffed

AP after 25k agi

vers > mast for exs

mast > vers for AP

[Deleted]

crit(cap, super important) to 43%unbuffed

AP after 25k agi

vers > mast for exs

mast > vers for AP

I would recommand to stack crit and ap all over the place for both specs . These rumors are all around, but i didnt get the logic behind this nor I didnt have a source neither the explanation of this statment of patient zero. We cannot have enough crit since the debuff/buff uptime is the most important (ep and/or sot and/or envenom). Mastery is synergizing very well with ep/sot/envenom with both specs as well. The more cp we are able to build and put in the 4.5 time frame, the significantly higher becomes our dps. If we have the T19 set bonus in the future and the increased energy reg through the bonus (and the haste on the set items) I would agree we have an softcap for crit.

[Wow]

Sub scales better according to sims around 880+ which means in Nighthold sub will be strongest in terms of dps.

According to the sims sub should be crushing assassin on all raid fights but this doesn't seem to be the case at all. From what I've seen sub needs the boots to just kind of keep up much less this 50-60k ahead spec. Pretty much all the top logs for sub have the boots and 880+ and yet no one has made it even catch up much less do any better than assassin.

[Wickedseraph]

not allowed to post links, but youtube nattle

imo he has the best guides for assassination, both opener, gear and rotation is covered in depth

basically

crit(cap, super important) to 43%unbuffed

AP after 25k agi

vers > mast for exs

mast > vers for AP

Thank you for the info

[Deleted]

According to the sims sub should be crushing assassin on all raid fights but this doesn't seem to be the case at all. From what I've seen sub needs the boots to just kind of keep up much less this 50-60k ahead spec. Pretty much all the top logs for sub have the boots and 880+ and yet no one has made it even catch up much less do any better than assassin.

I simmed both specs with optimal itemization on T19 mythic gear incl. bis legs / bis trinkets / bis relics / set bonus. Sin and Sub are 100% equal on BiS gear (both have exactly the same 685k dps). But in practise i believe it is much more harder to obtain this dps with a sub than with a sin due to uptime requirements and rotation failure forgivingness.

[Wickedseraph]

So i just did a dungeon 825 ilvl heroic as assasin. and had to switch to outlaw. What ilvl/ stat points should i switch to sin at? assuming of course im not butchering the rotation which I'm pretty sure I'm not. keep bleeds up keep elaborate planning up as much as possible even if you have 2-3 point envenom.

[BetrayedOf52]

So im Assassination, and I was doing mog for swords, switched specialization and well I got [Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs]... Okay first leg on the rogue and its not for my spec. I have zero AP in outlaw and avoided it like the plague due to the forums saying how bad it is. With up coming buff to [Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs] and outlaw changes, any reason I should level up my AP in outlaw Artifact? Or better off keeping leg for ilvl and staying sin.


Im 862 114% mastery 30% crit 14% haste 23000 Agility [Memento of Angerboda] [Spontaneous Appendages] for trinkets

[Nikkaszal]

So i just did a dungeon 825 ilvl heroic as assasin. and had to switch to outlaw. What ilvl/ stat points should i switch to sin at? assuming of course im not butchering the rotation which I'm pretty sure I'm not. keep bleeds up keep elaborate planning up as much as possible even if you have 2-3 point envenom.

Sin is gonna be garbage until you get a load of crit on your gear. Outlaw is faaaaar more forgiving gear-wise for the entry level.

Everyone says you need 40%+ crit to be viable as Sin, but I say fuck that - if you have 30% or so, you're good to start making the switch. You won't be pulling crushing DPS immediately but you sure as hell will start seeing returns on ST over Outlaw.

[TheCuts]

So im Assassination, and I was doing mog for swords, switched specialization and well I got [Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs]... Okay first leg on the rogue and its not for my spec. I have zero AP in outlaw and avoided it like the plague due to the forums saying how bad it is. With up coming buff to [Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs] and outlaw changes, any reason I should level up my AP in outlaw Artifact? Or better off keeping leg for ilvl and staying sin.


Im 862 114% mastery 30% crit 14% haste 23000 Agility [Memento of Angerboda] [Spontaneous Appendages] for trinkets

The bracers are the strongest dps increase to Outlaw. Also, check your loot spec cause you should not have gotten an Outlaw legendary if you were in a different spec. If not, open a ticket about it. Honestly, I am jealous that you got the bracers. There are a few threads about how to use them properly here and I think it might make an increase in your dps over assassination if you get used to Outlaw. You might have to change you stat weights a little though cause mastery is not the best for Outlaw, but they are all pretty even with Crit and Vers being the top and Haste being slightly lower than Mastery if you get to around like 3k of it.

I would highly suggest simming it and getting another opinion though before making the switch.

[Wickedseraph]

That makes sense. I don't have much crit yet. Thanks

[Wickedseraph]

well im 857 now. And my ST is decent but my AOE sucks. I only have 16 points in artifact since im AK 1. Anyone have some hints as to howto do better DPS on AOE/ST or is it just luck based with poison bomb proccing for AOE and my low artifact for ST? Ruloui-Lightbringer is my character

[Lucifuger]

I want to play my rogue so badly but not a big fan of outlaw (prefer sin or even sub) but everybody I know still says "outlaw is so good, why don't u spec it for dungeons for meaty aoe?!!?!!?! "

sigh

[Muguin]

I would say play what you like. I play outlaw and I don't seem to have the luck with roles that most of the people complain about. You'll get grand melee like 3 times in a row about the same amount of times you get 6 buff. You can pull really good numbers with mediocre rolls you just got to not focus so much on trying to get ideal rolls and work with what you got. I don't think over ever gotten crapped on the meters except by shadow priests.

[Deleted]

this night i got some nice total dps numbers as sin again. brh+6 600k before last boss / 640k after last boss. votw+8 560k.