PvP in its current state

[Rottegift]

I've played on and off since wrath, and have never felt the urge to make a thread like this until now. At this point I actually don't enjoy PvP anymore. This is down to the all the pruning and bursty metagame.

I know PvP isn't balanced around 1v1 - and it shouldn't. But I think back to wrath when I spent countless hours in Durotar dueling other players as a warrior. Warrior has never been a very strong 1v1 class, but I won duels vs worse players every time. If I dueled a mage a few hundred rating lower than me I'd win by strategy and timing CDs better. I'd even win vs rets with bubble due to shattering throw. The only class I can remember I'd often lose no matter what rating was DK's. My point is that the better player could win duels by just being a better player, class didn't matter.

Nowadays you'll basically lose to a player even if he's 1000 rating lower as it's all about dmg.

That has even expanded to arena. The current state of PvP feels like it's all about pushing the strongest PvE rotation and it's way too bursty. What happened to strategy? I'm not quite sure how to fix it, but I think healers need more healing and I'd like to see more utility brought back to the game. The pruning might be one of the stupidest decisions they've ever done imo.

I didn't play cata or wod, but I tried the final patch of MoP and it was wayyy better than this crap. I like the other aspects of Legion though, if they could just fix PvP I'd give it 8.5/10.

[Caolela]

Pruning and bursty meta -- it's to get more narcissistic ADD kids with the attention span of a house fly into the game - the FB and Twitter/phone mentality - and to keep them longer they've exponentially increased the mindless grind with all RNG, and so Blizz can decide how to gear up toons.

Who the hell thought an MMORPG should have selfies? WTF?

It's basically a corporate money grab of trying to latch onto the latest fad/trend, since they've steadily alienated and lost a lot of their better, more traditional players. When that runs it's course they'll go to the next fad. And they'll call it "innovation" or some other kewl sales pitch buzzword.

It's also easier and cheaper to create an excessive grind with existing or PvE content than to make new, interesting PvP content that would keep people playing - like more BGs, arenas, acheives, titles, rewards of different kinds. Then there's cleaning up the mass of cheaters that they look the other way on so they don't lose those subs, their buying new accts. and Blizz Shop spending, not to mention the free publicity Blizz gets from the streamers/YT'ers.

It applies to WoW like many other things today - if nothing else matters but profit, you inevitably end in a race to the bottom.

When you have the Lead Class Dev (Celestalon) playing WoW PvP on a fucking Wacom tablet with a pen (not a mouse), and saying that he doesn't think we need to spin our chars in the X-axis (only FPS games need that), then it's clear where the game is headed.

[Deleted]

I do understand what you are saying but the game is very different now. For one thing duels don't mean much not just because the game isnt balanced 1v1 but also cause you can't LoS. Think about in arena people can kite around pillar, hybrid classes can hide and heal up, monk/locks can port on top of the bridge. These things you can't do in a Duel. If you are maining a Warr then you will have a very tough time doing 1v1 against any class in world but a lot better in arena with a healer. If 1v1 means a lot to you then try out Prot.

[Tyrannica]

If 1v1 means a lot to you then try out Prot.

Now, that was the worst suggestion i have seen in years.

Maybe you don't know that duels are made for fun. Using a tanking spec is most dishonorable, its almost worse than using toys and potions!

You can los in a duel if you do it elsewhere and not in front of the major cities, only.

He is right, the game is too much about pve rotations even in arena and bursty dmg. Actually a R1 Assassin in rogue was running recount in arenas and told people to just have at least 130k dps to win. Its really retarded.

Also frost dks should never top arenas its just not right, i played several dks in arenas, and rbgs and while they were never the best in arenas it just does not feel right to be better than all the cc teams by just doing stupid amounts of dmg. Now i see they get a kinda strong nerf(-10% strenght). I would have prefered them more tanky with selfheals for zergish actions than just beeing a mindless dmg bots, like what rogue had become.

really horrible you got 2 classes the rogue who excells in beeing a cc machine who got his cc in the meta that is assassin completely pruned for dmg and on the other side you got frost dks who got their survival kit pruned(all the cc breakers and selfheals other than the lame deathstrike) for just the same dmg that assassin did.

I call that pretty a broken design or lets say a design only about raids in mind and nothing else, perhaps?

[Deleted]

Now, that was the worst suggestion i have seen in years.

Maybe you don't know that duels are made for fun. Using a tanking spec is most dishonorable, its almost worse than using toys and potions!

You can los in a duel if you do it elsewhere and not in front of the major cities, only.

He is right, the game is too much about pve rotations even in arena and bursty dmg. Actually a R1 Assassin in rogue was running recount in arenas and told people to just have at least 130k dps to win. Its really retarded.

Also frost dks should never top arenas its just not right, i played several dks in arenas, and rbgs and while they were never the best in arenas it just does not feel right to be better than all the cc teams by just doing stupid amounts of dmg. Now i see they get a kinda strong nerf(-10% strenght). I would have prefered them more tanky with selfheals for zergish actions than just beeing a mindless dmg bots, like what rogue had become.

really horrible you got 2 classes the rogue who excells in beeing a cc machine who got his cc in the meta that is assassin completely pruned for dmg and on the other side you got frost dks who got their survival kit pruned(all the cc breakers and selfheals other than the lame deathstrike) for just the same dmg that assassin did.

I call that pretty a broken design or lets say a design only about raids in mind and nothing else, perhaps?

Well what would you suggest him then he plays a warr?

Another thing people will complain no matter which class is on top. First it was Warr and they were extremely strong but Blizzard nerfed them so bad that people stopped playing warr and they had to buff them again. After that enhance was top and people complained again, Enhance got nerfed to the ground. Now all enhance switched to elemental. Dks already got 20% nerf (10% last week then 10% this week). My point is when Blizzard nerfs a class, they nerf it to the ground. Balancing should always be done but the problem is Blizzard always tend to over buff or over nerf.

[Deleted]

Pruning and bursty meta -- it's to get more narcissistic ADD kids with the attention span of a house fly into the game - the FB and Twitter/phone mentality - and to keep them longer they've exponentially increased the mindless grind with all RNG, and so Blizz can decide how to gear up toons.

Who the hell thought an MMORPG should have selfies? WTF?

It's basically a corporate money grab of trying to latch onto the latest fad/trend, since they've steadily alienated and lost a lot of their better, more traditional players. When that runs it's course they'll go to the next fad. And they'll call it "innovation" or some other kewl sales pitch buzzword.

It's also easier and cheaper to create an excessive grind with existing or PvE content than to make new, interesting PvP content that would keep people playing - like more BGs, arenas, acheives, titles, rewards of different kinds. Then there's cleaning up the mass of cheaters that they look the other way on so they don't lose those subs, their buying new accts. and Blizz Shop spending, not to mention the free publicity Blizz gets from the streamers/YT'ers.

It applies to WoW like many other things today - if nothing else matters but profit, you inevitably end in a race to the bottom.

When you have the Lead Class Dev (Celestalon) playing WoW PvP on a fucking Wacom tablet with a pen (not a mouse), and saying that he doesn't think we need to spin our chars in the X-axis (only FPS games need that), then it's clear where the game is headed.

They banned thousand of cheating accounts a week ago. And you keep spewing bullshit about a pvp you aren't even playing. INB4 "I play in the lvl 29 bracket" LMAO

BTW the game isn't supposed to be balanced around duels so it's pointless to complain about that.

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Well what would you suggest him then he plays a warr?

Another thing people will complain no matter which class is on top. First it was Warr and they were extremely strong but Blizzard nerfed them so bad that people stopped playing warr and they had to buff them again. After that enhance was top and people complained again, Enhance got nerfed to the ground. Now all enhance switched to elemental. Dks already got 20% nerf (10% last week then 10% this week). My point is when Blizzard nerfs a class, they nerf it to the ground. Balancing should always be done but the problem is Blizzard always tend to over buff or over nerf.

Neither enhance nor fdks have been nerfed to the ground, they're still really strong.

[Deleted]

I cant even find anyone ingame anymore that even wants to pvp.

It's not just that some classes are unbalanced, its the feeling that you have zero influence over it (which you at least had to an extent with gear in the past)

[Rottegift]

I do understand what you are saying but the game is very different now. For one thing duels don't mean much not just because the game isnt balanced 1v1 but also cause you can't LoS. Think about in arena people can kite around pillar, hybrid classes can hide and heal up, monk/locks can port on top of the bridge. These things you can't do in a Duel. If you are maining a Warr then you will have a very tough time doing 1v1 against any class in world but a lot better in arena with a healer. If 1v1 means a lot to you then try out Prot.

No, as I clearly stated I know PvP isn't balanced around duels. I also wrote I know that warrior isn't good in duels. My point was that every aspect of PvP was more balanced back then, not only duels but also arena and general PvP. It was better balanced, was more fun, and more rewarding knowing your class. They removed almost all the utility and unique abilities that you could counter with.

There was back then and will always be favourable duel matchups. But if you were the better player you could still win by outsmarting the other player, due to the longevity of a duel. In this state of PvP, dmg and burst, I'll die within a 1500 rated rogues kidney opener without even getting to press a button.

In arena there isn't much difference _individually_ between a 2700 and 2000 warrior. Before you'd notice the difference right away. Charge stuns stopping CC, stance swapping, intervening traps etc. Could go on forever. They removed the stuff that made a difference. All thats left is having the highest dmg. The difference in rating is mainly the summed up team effort, but individually there isn't much difference.

I just think the whole state PvP is shit and not fun or rewarding at all.

[Deleted]

I feel the class design was more healthy during vanilla (or even WOTLK) than now. They homogenized everything so everyone did the same 50000 stuns and defensives and self heals but now they just prune everything and we still have too many CC in the game and unbalance.

During vanilla, the worst thing was non DR CC (those 50 sec sheeps in pvp the first months lol) and rogues out of control. Some specs were weak (ret, feral although feral was quite powerful when played well) but at least you knew that not each class was going to CC you to death or use some cheesy getaway spell.

Also burst was retarded (one shots everywhere) but the idea of having classes having each different strengths was better. Now its not the case, classes have too many stupid abilities to destroy other players and you don't feel like you have time to think and be tactic. I remember how frost mages played in vanilla before having all those insta burst bullshit thanks to rogue receiving 50000 tools starting in BC (shadowstep,cloak). Then each class whined for a counter to this new spell which in turn resulted in each class having more and more broken , easy mode abilities.

Can you really 1vs 3 people anymore except if they play really really bad? You can't because each class is so simplified and situational tools are so rare that there is not much room to outplay people. Everyone dispels anything, uses root breakers, sprints, cheap kick and cheap stuns...

- - - Updated - - -

Also mana drain and mana management was actually a good thing, it just needed tuning to avoid it being broken. Where is mana management now? Healers just perma heal everything without a single worry about mana bar and the only way to kill them is with dampening, big burst, perma CC which encourages more and more damage from dps and more and more burst heal from healers.
Thats boring imo, I prefer classes to actually have different tools to be of use, not just stuns and damage.

- - - Updated - - -

During WOTLK each class had their niche, felt unique even though homogenization started at that time

[Rottegift]

I feel the class design was more healthy during vanilla (or even WOTLK) than now. They homogenized everything so everyone did the same 50000 stuns and defensives and self heals but now they just prune everything and we still have too many CC in the game and unbalance.

During vanilla, the worst thing was non DR CC (those 50 sec sheeps in pvp the first months lol) and rogues out of control. Some specs were weak (ret, feral although feral was quite powerful when played well) but at least you knew that not each class was going to CC you to death or use some cheesy getaway spell.

Also burst was retarded (one shots everywhere) but the idea of having classes having each different strengths was better. Now its not the case, classes have too many stupid abilities to destroy other players and you don't feel like you have time to think and be tactic. I remember how frost mages played in vanilla before having all those insta burst bullshit thanks to rogue receiving 50000 tools starting in BC (shadowstep,cloak). Then each class whined for a counter to this new spell which in turn resulted in each class having more and more broken , easy mode abilities.

Can you really 1vs 3 people anymore except if they play really really bad? You can't because each class is so simplified and situational tools are so rare that there is not much room to outplay people. Everyone dispels anything, uses root breakers, sprints, cheap kick and cheap stuns...

- - - Updated - - -

Also mana drain and mana management was actually a good thing, it just needed tuning to avoid it being broken. Where is mana management now? Healers just perma heal everything without a single worry about mana bar and the only way to kill them is with dampening, big burst, perma CC which encourages more and more damage from dps and more and more burst heal from healers.
Thats boring imo, I prefer classes to actually have different tools to be of use, not just stuns and damage.

- - - Updated - - -

During WOTLK each class had their niche, felt unique even though homogenization started at that time

Yes, agreed 100%.

[Deleted]

They banned thousand of cheating accounts a week ago. And you keep spewing bullshit about a pvp you aren't even playing. INB4 "I play in the lvl 29 bracket" LMAO

BTW the game isn't supposed to be balanced around duels so it's pointless to complain about that.

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Neither enhance nor fdks have been nerfed to the ground, they're still really strong.

World's best enhance would disagree, Jaime had 2 chars in top 5 EU ranking switched to Elemental. Enhance dropped from 8% over 2k rating to 3.3% participation now. I didn't say FDK got nerfed to the ground, just mentioned they got nerfed by 20% so far.

[Tyrannica]

Well what would you suggest him then he plays a warr?

Another thing people will complain no matter which class is on top. First it was Warr and they were extremely strong but Blizzard nerfed them so bad that people stopped playing warr and they had to buff them again. After that enhance was top and people complained again, Enhance got nerfed to the ground. Now all enhance switched to elemental. Dks already got 20% nerf (10% last week then 10% this week). My point is when Blizzard nerfs a class, they nerf it to the ground. Balancing should always be done but the problem is Blizzard always tend to over buff or over nerf.

Well i would suggest him to not play a warrior at all if he loves dueling and still staying with a dd spec. Maybe its too hard for blizz to make either arms or fury good in dueling, maybe blizz needs more $$.

Right, and they change so much in so little time i wonder why?

- - - Updated - - -

I feel the class design was more healthy during vanilla (or even WOTLK) than now. They homogenized everything so everyone did the same 50000 stuns and defensives and self heals but now they just prune everything and we still have too many CC in the game and unbalance.

During vanilla, the worst thing was non DR CC (those 50 sec sheeps in pvp the first months lol) and rogues out of control. Some specs were weak (ret, feral although feral was quite powerful when played well) but at least you knew that not each class was going to CC you to death or use some cheesy getaway spell.

Also burst was retarded (one shots everywhere) but the idea of having classes having each different strengths was better. Now its not the case, classes have too many stupid abilities to destroy other players and you don't feel like you have time to think and be tactic. I remember how frost mages played in vanilla before having all those insta burst bullshit thanks to rogue receiving 50000 tools starting in BC (shadowstep,cloak). Then each class whined for a counter to this new spell which in turn resulted in each class having more and more broken , easy mode abilities.

Can you really 1vs 3 people anymore except if they play really really bad? You can't because each class is so simplified and situational tools are so rare that there is not much room to outplay people. Everyone dispels anything, uses root breakers, sprints, cheap kick and cheap stuns...

- - - Updated - - -

Also mana drain and mana management was actually a good thing, it just needed tuning to avoid it being broken. Where is mana management now? Healers just perma heal everything without a single worry about mana bar and the only way to kill them is with dampening, big burst, perma CC which encourages more and more damage from dps and more and more burst heal from healers.
Thats boring imo, I prefer classes to actually have different tools to be of use, not just stuns and damage.

- - - Updated - - -

During WOTLK each class had their niche, felt unique even though homogenization started at that time

when i played a bit with a fire mage in bc and early wrath i had to actually drink for mana after each kill and as frost mage you never had those problems and used even low rank spells for a snare.

And healers could go oom or die in a cc, like a warlock fear to nothing but dots and life drain. Yeah dueling healers was no problem and it was quick.

[Caolela]

They banned thousand of cheating accounts a week ago. And you keep spewing bullshit about a pvp you aren't even playing. INB4 "I play in the lvl 29 bracket" LMAO

Like I've told a couple of asshats several times, I've played the last 3 xpacs at max level, and since Legion at <100. No one has to play Legion at 110 to know how much of a disaster it is. Not going over that again. If you were stupid or gullible enough to blow $50.-60. on Legion then that's your prob.

Really don't know why some morons try to use that as any kind of counter-argument. Oh that's right...because they don't have a valid one to defend the steaming pile that is Legion PvP. BTW - show where any of the predictions I and others made about Legion were substantially wrong, and many didn't have to play the alpha/beta to see it coming.

STFU Voda. You're pathetically wrong here like you've been so many other times. But that's what fanboys do.

Blizz "bans" are a joke, and everyone on the ladders knows it. They're just token efforts once or twice a year to make it look like they're doing something. It's been well-known for years which is why people keep cheating in WoW. You really don't want to start that dumb argument with me either or I'll rip you a new one there too.