1. #3161
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    The story was great actually. Going to the hospital through a giant apartment building that was gutted from the inside with infected was one of the most intense segments in any game I've played and couldn't put the controller down. Watching this game is not the same as wearing headphones on a higher difficulty at All. There was much more gameplay than expected of course some of the story elements serve as going from A to B like damn near every video game. You make abby a dude and 99% of complaints go away
    How is the story "great" because the action is intense? That doesn't follow to me. That's all gameplay, not story. The gameplay is good, it is pretty much the same as the first game with no huge shake ups. Most combat areas are decent enough to allow multiple ways of handling encounters, even the tighter areas have options.

    Tell me, what did the going to the hospital section add to the overall story of the game? In Abby's section, what is her goal ... what is she building to. Why should we be invested in her sections. Abby's motivation go from Soldier following orders to go AWOL to find Owen to gotta save the kids she just met to track down Ellie to Find the Fireflies. Ellie's story is find Abby, it is simple yes, but they are able to show how her actions are tracking down where Abby is.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  2. #3162
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    How is the story "great" because the action is intense? That doesn't follow to me. That's all gameplay, not story. The gameplay is good, it is pretty much the same as the first game with no huge shake ups. Most combat areas are decent enough to allow multiple ways of handling encounters, even the tighter areas have options.

    Tell me, what did the going to the hospital section add to the overall story of the game? In Abby's section, what is her goal ... what is she building to. Why should we be invested in her sections. Abby's motivation go from Soldier following orders to go AWOL to find Owen to gotta save the kids she just met to track down Ellie to Find the Fireflies. Ellie's story is find Abby, it is simple yes, but they are able to show how her actions are tracking down where Abby is.
    You're focusing on the trees and missing the forest. It's all about context. How they make you care for a character that took a golf club to Joel. Annnd they made it a beefed up laydee. What a writers challenge! And they succeeded. You realise that ellie is wrong to go on this massive revenge mission and it brings her nothing but pain and misery. Abbys story high lighted the horrors of the end of the first game and expanded on those themes. Would you say abby and ellie were happy while hunting each other?

    And narrative does serve to assist the game play. Why do you think you start off clearing out outposts with 2 or 3 people/undead to rushing head first into entire camps full of hostiles as you try catch up to someone they care about. Also the sniper segment being Tommy? Genius

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    Also through abby we learn more about the wolves and scars so they are not just one dimensional mindless bad guys like the zombies. You're like oh shit yeah that area I just blitzed through were people and I just killed a pregnant top surgeon. It's good story telling

  3. #3163
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    You're focusing on the trees and missing the forest. It's all about context. How they make you care for a character that took a golf club to Joel. Annnd they made it a beefed up laydee. What a writers challenge! And they succeeded. You realise that ellie is wrong to go on this massive revenge mission and it brings her nothing but pain and misery. Abbys story high lighted the horrors of the end of the first game and expanded on those themes. Would you say abby and ellie were happy while hunting each other?
    Abby didn't even know Ellie followed her until they confronted each other. She knew Tommy was there and was hunting him after she found Owen and Mel dead. And of course Ellie wasn't happy hunting Abby ... she was hunting her because she killed Joel.

    No, I am looking at the forest. That's why I said you can cut it out and still have the same quality story. Abby's entire section is poorly paced, unneeded and adds nothing but more world building that could have been done with fleshing out Ellie's side more. Ellie's story is harmed because Abby's story exists as playable.

    ---

    Also through abby we learn more about the wolves and scars so they are not just one dimensional mindless bad guys like the zombies. You're like oh shit yeah that area I just blitzed through were people and I just killed a pregnant top surgeon. It's good story telling
    I would argue that we learn the WLF is all assholes and the Scars are religious zealots. Honestly, Abby's story made me feel those factions were one dimensional.

    And I got they were people and Ellie killed a pregnant surgeon all with just Ellie's story ... I didn't need additional crap to know that.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-08-29 at 09:30 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #3164
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Abby didn't even know Ellie followed her until they confronted each other. She knew Tommy was there and was hunting him after she found Owen and Mel dead. And of course Ellie wasn't happy hunting Abby ... she was hunting her because she killed Joel.

    No, I am looking at the forest. That's why I said you can cut it out and still have the same quality story. Abby's entire section is poorly paced, unneeded and adds nothing but more world building that could have been done with fleshing out Ellie's side more. Ellie's story is harmed because Abby's story exists as playable.

    ---



    I would argue that we learn the WLF is all assholes and the Scars are religious zealots. Honestly, Abby's story made me feel those factions were one dimensional.

    And I got they were people and Ellie killed a pregnant surgeon all with just Ellie's story ... I didn't need additional crap to know that.
    "additional crap" sure you don't have an agenda there at all. If you missed all the sub text on alpha bros and people just joining for protection and creating a military/family unit or the religious group of the scars that in doctrine thier kids into it then that's on you

  5. #3165
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    "additional crap" sure you don't have an agenda there at all. If you missed all the sub text on alpha bros and people just joining for protection and creating a military/family unit or the religious group of the scars that in doctrine thier kids into it then that's on you
    There was no sub text in Abby's story. Seriously, none. They were very open about what they were showing and why they were showing it.

    That could have worked sub textually in improving Ellie's side of the story, which suffered because they decided to devote 10 hours to Abby and add nothing of substance.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  6. #3166
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    There was no sub text in Abby's story. Seriously, none. They were very open about what they were showing and why they were showing it.

    That could have worked sub textually in improving Ellie's side of the story, which suffered because they decided to devote 10 hours to Abby and add nothing of substance.
    The game only covers 3 days how much more guitar playing with Ellie and Joel did you need? They could have just done the first game again I guess but they took creative risks instead.

    Are you reading the notes laying around in the world? Maybe you are just watching the cut scenes? I dunno how the story can be so lost on you it was pretty cut and dry really

  7. #3167
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    The game only covers 3 days how much more guitar playing with Ellie and Joel did you need? They could have just done the first game again I guess but they took creative risks instead.

    Are you reading the notes laying around in the world? Maybe you are just watching the cut scenes? I dunno how the story can be so lost on you it was pretty cut and dry really
    Debating with that guy is a lost cause he has been trying to convince everyone the story is bad for months now and it's quite obvious the entire thing boils down to "buff female killed my male protag OUTRAGE". He believes his own farts so much he thinks Abby's physique is less realistic then a fucking clicker, which says it all.

  8. #3168
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    The game only covers 3 days how much more guitar playing with Ellie and Joel did you need? They could have just done the first game again I guess but they took creative risks instead.

    Are you reading the notes laying around in the world? Maybe you are just watching the cut scenes? I dunno how the story can be so lost on you it was pretty cut and dry really
    It isn't lost on me. You are going "How can you not love this story" when you aren't arguing any point that is directly the story of the game ... you are arguing for gameplay and world building aspects of the game. The world building could have been put in Ellie's section. Help develop Dina and Jesse's characters more.

    You think there is sub text when they isn't any. You think Abby shows that WLF and Serephites aren't one dimensional despite the fact they do NOTHING but show that the WLF are assholes and aggressive. And do nothing but show the Seraphites as religious zealots ... Yara and Lev are apostates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Debating with that guy is a lost cause he has been trying to convince everyone the story is bad for months now and it's quite obvious the entire thing boils down to "buff female killed my male protag OUTRAGE". He believes his own farts so much he thinks Abby's physique is less realistic then a fucking clicker, which says it all.
    The world building supports clickers. The world building doesn't support Abby's physique. Hell, even changing some story line aspects could have made her bulking up make sense. Take Isaac, rather than Abby being his "Number 1 scar killer" if he changed it to "It is about time we had you using that muscle of your more." Or even, you have wasted enough time and resources, it is about time you start paying us back in full. It shows that she was focused more on bulking up/using resources, etc, I would have less of a problem.

    We see nothing in Abby's character that support her having the build she has other than she has it. And no, the fact they have a gym isn't evidence for it, we never see her in the gym. She makes no references to the gym. They literally could have walked by cakes, and that entire thing is the same. The fact they grow their own food isn't evidence either. Imagine rather than finding her passed out reading a book, Manny found her passed out in the gym instead. Minor things they COULD have done to help build Abby physique into the world ... they chose not to do it.

    And I am literally okay with her killing Joel. I don't have a problem with Joel dying, I have a problem with how the death was handled. You are lying and proving you haven't listen to anything I have said.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-08-29 at 11:46 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  9. #3169
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Debating with that guy is a lost cause he has been trying to convince everyone the story is bad for months now and it's quite obvious the entire thing boils down to "buff female killed my male protag OUTRAGE". He believes his own farts so much he thinks Abby's physique is less realistic then a fucking clicker, which says it all.
    Starting to realise that when he talked about killing the surgeon as other crap.

    Also there are like at least two references that I can think of that refer to how she got big. They eat meat and are well fed and she's gym obsessed and they even comment on her skipping training and would she be OK with that. IE she never misses a gym session. Next they will be saying wolves don't reward meat. Actually pay attention to the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    It isn't lost on me. You are going "How can you not love this story" when you aren't arguing any point that is directly the story of the game ... you are arguing for gameplay and world building aspects of the game. The world building could have been put in Ellie's section. Help develop Dina and Jesse's characters more.

    You think there is sub text when they isn't any. You think Abby shows that WLF and Serephites aren't one dimensional despite the fact they do NOTHING but show that the WLF are assholes and aggressive. And do nothing but show the Seraphites as religious zealots ... Yara and Lev are apostates.

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    The world building supports clickers. The world building doesn't support Abby's physique. Hell, even changing some story line aspects could have made her bulking up make sense. Take Isaac, rather than Abby being his "Number 1 scar killer" if he changed it to "It is about time we had you using that muscle of your more." Or even, you have wasted enough time and resources, it is about time you start paying us back in full. It shows that she was focused more on bulking up/using resources, etc, I would have less of a problem.

    We see nothing in Abby's character that support her having the build she has other than she has it. And no, the fact they have a gym isn't evidence for it, we never see her in the gym. She makes no references to the gym. They literally could have walked by cakes, and that entire thing is the same. The fact they grow their own food isn't evidence either. Imagine rather than finding her passed out reading a book, Manny found her passed out in the gym instead. Minor things they COULD have done to help build Abby physique into the world ... they chose not to do it.

    And I am literally okay with her killing Joel. I don't have a problem with Joel dying, I have a problem with how the death was handled. You are lying and proving you haven't listen to anything I have said.
    It would be pretty boring if they made us lift dumb bells and do squats. I'd rather do the much more interesting shit like in her story like being close with the wolves then getting close with the scar runaways than learn more about her weight/cardio gym break down. And they do make references to it anyway so you're the one lying

  10. #3170
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Starting to realise that when he talked about killing the surgeon as other crap.

    Also there are like at least two references that I can think of that refer to how she got big. They eat meat and are well fed and she's gym obsessed and they even comment on her skipping training and would she be OK with that. IE she never misses a gym session. Next they will be saying wolves don't reward meat. Actually pay attention to the game

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    It would be pretty boring if they made us lift dumb bells and do squats. I'd rather do the much more interesting shit like in her story like being close with the wolves then getting close with the scar runaways than learn more about her weight/cardio gym break down. And they do make references to it anyway so you're the one lying
    I mean people are saying "There's no proof she ever went to the Gym." when there's her own filled in Gym form showing one of her sessions.

  11. #3171
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I mean people are saying "There's no proof she ever went to the Gym." when there's her own filled in Gym form showing one of her sessions.
    Yeah it's pretty lame they get hung up on such trivial stuff. I guess you're not allowed to be buff in the apocalypse with all that free time. You just sit around by the camp fire singing show tunes

  12. #3172
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Yeah it's pretty lame they get hung up on such trivial stuff. I guess you're not allowed to be buff in the apocalypse with all that free time. You just sit around by the camp fire singing show tunes
    Hey man she didn't hit the gym in the whole 3 days the game takes place in. By my math she should of lost about 75% of her mass, skipping 3 days of gym while shit is hitting the fan makes it impossible to be buff!

    You know if they model swapped her to starving Abby from end of game these people would of never complained. I think they are intimidated by a woman with more mass then them, but they could fix that with a trip to the gym... oh but they would probably see women there that look like Abby and claim it was fake or they're on roids and get kicked out.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2020-08-30 at 04:06 AM.

  13. #3173
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Hey man she didn't hit the gym in the whole 3 days the game takes place in. By my math she should of lost about 75% of her mass, skipping 3 days of gym while shit is hitting the fan makes it impossible to be buff!

    You know if they model swapped her to starving Abby from end of game these people would of never complained. I think they are intimidated by a woman with more mass then them, but they could fix that with a trip to the gym... oh but they would probably see women there that look like Abby and claim it was fake or they're on roids and get kicked out.
    Yeah she should have lost those gains traversing the wilderness and City buildings falling apart for sure.

    Speaking of her ending frame. A big part of why it hits you is because she was buff in the first place. If she was normal size it wouldn't have the same impact

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    Also I've never seen "one man army" complaints about a video game ever. That is rather telling. I didn't see doom eternal getting dismissed because the protag is too strong. Or red dead redemption 2 where you are a cowboy who literally fights armies. But I guess if you put a-cup tits on Arthur Morgan maybe they would have gotten it /shrug

  14. #3174
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    This thread is so dissapointing. One of the best games of all time when being objective and you're discussing one man army's and how much muscle tone a female character got. This thread is patient zero on why you should not listen to feedback from the Internet and make your vision. This game was intense. The narrative was always there to supplement the gameplay. And the way it unfolds and ratchets up the tension was hugely enjoyable. One of the best games of the year easily
    And yet, they could have deleted an entire section of the game and the player wouldn't have missed anything. Seriously, Abby's story is inconsequential and pointless and does nothing but divert from Ellie's story, and the game is about her, after all. Abby's whole existence was to kill Joel, and if I had to make a guess, she'll be dead if DLC ever happens for the game. Or they'll kill off Ellie and invariably butcher the franchise in one fell swoop, putting the entire franchise in a casket because frankly, very few sane people want to play a game where you take the role of a god damn butcher.

  15. #3175
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    And yet, they could have deleted an entire section of the game and the player wouldn't have missed anything. Seriously, Abby's story is inconsequential and pointless and does nothing but divert from Ellie's story, and the game is about her, after all. Abby's whole existence was to kill Joel, and if I had to make a guess, she'll be dead if DLC ever happens for the game. Or they'll kill off Ellie and invariably butcher the franchise in one fell swoop, putting the entire franchise in a casket because frankly, very few sane people want to play a game where you take the role of a god damn butcher.
    Kind of disagree here. On one hand, you could be correct as far as not missing anything if you only care about and have interest in Ellie. If you have an open mind about it then Abby’s story adds a lot to the game as it humanizes her and her friends and elicits a more thought provoking narrative into the fact that no one is correct in their actions and both are the hero to their own story while the other is the villain.
    Its kind of like the reviews I’ve seen where people talk about how Ellie’s dramatic and intense scenes with Abby’s friends are devalued and not as impactful because in the gameplay she miss down multiple enemies without a care about them. The flip side is that she does this in gameplay as self defense and to get to her goal, whereas with Abby’s friends she does something she’s never done before and the other was trying to defend herself and Ellie discovers something after she’s dead.
    If you don’t show interest in the entire story then certain things seem cheapened, when with just a little thought they really aren’t.

  16. #3176
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Kind of disagree here. On one hand, you could be correct as far as not missing anything if you only care about and have interest in Ellie. If you have an open mind about it then Abby’s story adds a lot to the game as it humanizes her and her friends and elicits a more thought provoking narrative into the fact that no one is correct in their actions and both are the hero to their own story while the other is the villain.
    Its kind of like the reviews I’ve seen where people talk about how Ellie’s dramatic and intense scenes with Abby’s friends are devalued and not as impactful because in the gameplay she miss down multiple enemies without a care about them. The flip side is that she does this in gameplay as self defense and to get to her goal, whereas with Abby’s friends she does something she’s never done before and the other was trying to defend herself and Ellie discovers something after she’s dead.
    If you don’t show interest in the entire story then certain things seem cheapened, when with just a little thought they really aren’t.
    Mm, my issue is that the story doesn’t do a good job of humanizing Abby. She continually makes choices that show her to be an overall awful person, with the only real exception being her interaction with Lev (which, even that can be taken as “he saved me first so I owe him”). Even with the attempt to add dimension to the story with the shift in perspective, I still would’ve preferred an option to kill her or leave her crucified. I still want her dead just as much as I did at the beginning of the game.

  17. #3177
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    , very few sane people want to play a game where you take the role of a god damn butcher.
    wait are we pretending that god of war or doom aren't really popular games now?

  18. #3178
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    wait are we pretending that god of war or doom aren't really popular games now?
    Oh that same guy argued Kratos and Trevor where good guys months ago. It's all good to be a butcher if it's a male power fantasy. That makes them a "hero" and not a "butcher" didn't you get the memo?

  19. #3179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    wait are we pretending that god of war or doom aren't really popular games now?
    Comparing games that are both fantastical and pretty shallow in their story telling to TLOU is pretty stupid, if you ask me. Games like those are vapid fun, and killing humans isn't the same as killing monsters in terms of brutality. Killing humans because they have different beliefs, morals or lust for power and control isn't even remotely the same as killing hordes of monsters.

  20. #3180
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    Mm, my issue is that the story doesn’t do a good job of humanizing Abby. She continually makes choices that show her to be an overall awful person, with the only real exception being her interaction with Lev (which, even that can be taken as “he saved me first so I owe him”). Even with the attempt to add dimension to the story with the shift in perspective, I still would’ve preferred an option to kill her or leave her crucified. I still want her dead just as much as I did at the beginning of the game.
    Well her parents were killed by a dude breaking out the only known cure when she was a teenager. There's a reason she has issues. And she's not all that bad otherwise she wouldn't have gone into the hospital and fought patient zero for some random she just met that cut her down

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