1. #3261
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    They're as well trained as joel and had the chance to get just as much experience but joel was special-er or w/e. The whole series isn't very well grounded or logical in a lot of areas.
    It's not trying to be. It's a mushroom zombie video game where you blast heads, living or dead, with shotguns. Just like all other video games, it's for fun.

  2. #3262
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    It's not trying to be. It's a mushroom zombie video game where you blast heads, living or dead, with shotguns. Just like all other video games, it's for fun.
    but people are trying to criticize a lack of realism when it comes to stuff they don't like. The first last of us was an 8/10 game it was just well executed but did nothing new. Your choices don't matter in either and it something I hope they address in 3. This on the rails morality lesson shit is old.

    The last of us 2 is almost a masterpiece but poor execution fucked it up. Same with mass effect 3 that spoiler ending where the antagonist aren't really the bad guys is good story telling. The build up and planning to it was just ass.
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  3. #3263
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    but people are trying to criticize a lack of realism when it comes to stuff they don't like. The first last of us was an 8/10 game it was just well executed but did nothing new. Your choices don't matter in either and it something I hope they address in 3. This on the rails morality lesson shit is old.

    The last of us 2 is almost a masterpiece but poor execution fucked it up. Same with mass effect 3 that spoiler ending where the antagonist aren't really the bad guys is good story telling. The build up and planning to it was just ass.
    I'll agree with you there. I hope they address it in TLOU3 as well.

  4. #3264
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'll agree with you there. I hope they address it in TLOU3 as well.
    They're not going to address it because it's not a problem. Not every game needs to give "player choice" on the story and games doing it for the sake of it cheapens the story overall. The ending of Ghost of Tsushima is atrocious because of a random choice thrown into a game that previously had none. Sucker Punch should of grown some balls and just had Jin finish off his uncle instead of not committing to it with a terrible choice that makes no sense based on everything else.

  5. #3265
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    They're not going to address it because it's not a problem. Not every game needs to give "player choice" on the story and games doing it for the sake of it cheapens the story overall. The ending of Ghost of Tsushima is atrocious because of a random choice thrown into a game that previously had none. Sucker Punch should of grown some balls and just had Jin finish off his uncle instead of not committing to it with a terrible choice that makes no sense based on everything else.
    It does when you want them to learn from the game. Killing is bad but not allowing the player to change along the way hurts that experience. Both games do that and I just want it to change. Like if I kill less people they spend less resources on me and focus on other threats. Let the game difficulty adjust with kill count at the very least. It would make the world feel more real and honestly shouldn't be to hard. Except tlou likes to have unique models for humanoids. That can be workaround with blend shapes though and clothing. You can make clothing fit around the actual part of the mesh with a skin renderer and use blend shapes to change forms at runtime.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-08-25 at 03:33 AM.
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  6. #3266
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    It does when you want them to learn from the game. Killing is bad but not allowing the player to change along the way hurts that experience. Both games do that and I just want it to change. Like if I kill less people they spend less resources on me and focus on other threats. Let the game difficulty adjust with kill count at the very least. It would make the world feel more real and honestly shouldn't be to hard. Except tlou likes to have unique models for humanoids. That can be workaround with blend shapes though and clothing. You can make clothing fit around the actual part of the mesh with a skin renderer and use blend shapes to change forms at runtime.
    Failing to differentiate narrative from gameplay is not my thing sorry. The gameplay is there to make it a good game, the narrative is there to be a narrative. No game that ever tried to link the two did it without one or the other suffering in some way. The ludo-narrative dissonance argument was shit in 2013 for Bioshock Infinite and it's still shit today for TLOU2 and for any game in between that tried to go there. The narrative in RDR2 for example is great and also quite grounded in reality, the gameplay on the other hand is quite the opposite with massive shoot outs and a super power in dead eye. Is this a problem? Absolutely not, the gameplay is there to be fun and give you action. For anyone who makes this argument I think you have the wrong hobby.

    You're barking up the wrong dev's tree if you ever think ND is going to give you some branching choice narrative. If you want that Obsidia, CDPR, Arkane or Bethesda are your guys... not ND.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2020-08-25 at 04:08 AM.

  7. #3267
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    They're as well trained as joel and had the chance to get just as much experience but joel was special-er or w/e. The whole series isn't very well grounded or logical in a lot of areas.
    No evidence for your claim.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    It's not trying to be. It's a mushroom zombie video game where you blast heads, living or dead, with shotguns. Just like all other video games, it's for fun.
    The individual is arguing that gameplay = exactly what happens in the story. And that isn't the case. His argument that Joel is a Gary Stu is just a lame attempt at trolling because his only argument is "nah!" Joel doesn't look out of place with the rest of the cast, Joel doesn't do things beyond what we see other characters do. Joel isn't beloved by everyone in the game in comes across. Joel's victories don't come easy. No one is arguing Abby is a Mary Sue so arguing Joel is Gary Stu is just an attempt to troll.

    I honestly like Abby as a character concept, but I feel they fucked up the execution and when she is the only one that looks the way she does AND such a physique actually would HARM her chances of surviving rather than help ... it takes me out of the game. No one is arguing that Abby slaughtering dozens of people single handedly is a problem ... that's just gameplay. Replace Abby with someone who looked like The Rock, I would be having the same complaints. It is out of place, I don't have a problem with jacked characters in say a game like gears of war where basically everyone is jacked as hell (even if it doesn't make sense) because that world isn't attempting to ground itself in realism.

    Abby could have worked as a character, I am just baffled by the choices they made with how they handled her as a character and how they chose to tell her side of the story ... it just didn't work for me.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  8. #3268
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No evidence for your claim.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The individual is arguing that gameplay = exactly what happens in the story. And that isn't the case. His argument that Joel is a Gary Stu is just a lame attempt at trolling because his only argument is "nah!" Joel doesn't look out of place with the rest of the cast, Joel doesn't do things beyond what we see other characters do. Joel isn't beloved by everyone in the game in comes across. Joel's victories don't come easy. No one is arguing Abby is a Mary Sue so arguing Joel is Gary Stu is just an attempt to troll.

    I honestly like Abby as a character concept, but I feel they fucked up the execution and when she is the only one that looks the way she does AND such a physique actually would HARM her chances of surviving rather than help ... it takes me out of the game. No one is arguing that Abby slaughtering dozens of people single handedly is a problem ... that's just gameplay. Replace Abby with someone who looked like The Rock, I would be having the same complaints. It is out of place, I don't have a problem with jacked characters in say a game like gears of war where basically everyone is jacked as hell (even if it doesn't make sense) because that world isn't attempting to ground itself in realism.

    Abby could have worked as a character, I am just baffled by the choices they made with how they handled her as a character and how they chose to tell her side of the story ... it just didn't work for me.
    It is Joel is 5"9 an not even that muscular but he takes down armies of people while protecting Ellie. There was nobody in that game capable of doing what he did despite surviving just as long...

    They did mess up her appearance bigger arm doesn't mean stronger. Your torso and legs generate more power. Abby needed smaller arms and massive thighs. Abby killed nowhere near as many people as Joel... She also ran into to people that could take her 1v1. Joel never ran into any of that... Abby keeps Ellie grounded unlike Joel who was the batman of his game. You know on sight if Abby grabs Ellie she is fucking dead.

    Was he ever threatened physically in the first the last of us? He had no equal in that game. Abby ran into that giant of a man and Tommy to keep her in check unlike Joel. She was also captured and tortured twice.

    It's not out of place she and her group had a farm and found workout equipment. They were literally raising animals to eat for protein. Abby was what the first game lacked competent enemies and competitive enemies not just cannon fodder. In the first game Joel was never outmached 1v1 unlike lee from the walking dead. There were several people capable of kicking his ass.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-08-25 at 07:10 PM.
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  9. #3269
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    It is Joel is 5"9 an not even that muscular but he takes down armies of people while protecting Ellie. There was nobody in that game capable of doing what he did despite surviving just as long...
    Gameplay =/= what actually happens in the story.

    They did mess up her appearance bigger arm doesn't mean stronger. Your torso and legs generate more power. Abby needed smaller arms and massive thighs. Abby killed nowhere near as many people as Joel... She also ran into to people that could take her 1v1. Joel never ran into any of that... Abby keeps Ellie grounded unlike Joel who was the batman of his game. You know on sight if Abby grabs Ellie she is fucking dead.

    Was he ever threatened physically in the first tlou? He had no equal in that game. Abby ran into that giant of a man and Tommy to keep her in check unlike Joel. She was also captured and tortured twice.

    It's not out of place she and her group had a farm and found workout equipment. They were literally raising animals to eat for protein.
    Do you understand how much time is required to be devoted not only to build that level of muscle but maintain it? It is something difficult without everything crashing down.

    And Joel ran into a lot of people like that ... or did you forget Joel was seriously injured in the first game? Also, Abby only lost when taken by surprise one on one ... and she literally later beat that same person with less gear, while running for her life with two people that she had no idea would back her up and did little in the fight.

    Seriously, stop trolling ... your posts are clearly not serious posts. Either actually put together an argument or just stop.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  10. #3270
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Gameplay =/= what actually happens in the story.



    Do you understand how much time is required to be devoted not only to build that level of muscle but maintain it? It is something difficult without everything crashing down.

    And Joel ran into a lot of people like that ... or did you forget Joel was seriously injured in the first game? Also, Abby only lost when taken by surprise one on one ... and she literally later beat that same person with less gear, while running for her life with two people that she had no idea would back her up and did little in the fight.

    Seriously, stop trolling ... your posts are clearly not serious posts. Either actually put together an argument or just stop.
    She had years and nothing to do and was also a solider. She beat him because she got a weapon. They had a farm of animals and abundance of food. Joel got injured because he fell down on a spike not because of losing a fight despite being pretty average build that is my issue.

    Joel got into a choking contest overpowered the guy than beat him in one punch... That is challenging? Abby only won those fights because she found a weapon or took a weapon. Joel never lost a 1v1 at any point and straight up injured himself... with the fall.

    Joel only bad trait is not trusting people. I'd love to trade sometime much grounded such realism but Abby though.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-08-25 at 07:25 PM.
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  11. #3271
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    She had years and nothing to do and was also a solider. She beat him because she got a weapon. They had a farm of animals and abundance of food. Joel got injured because he fell down on a spike not because of losing a fight despite being pretty average build that is my issue. She beat him and a well.

    Joel got into a choking contest overpowered the guy than beat him in one punch... That is challenging? Abby only won those fights because she found a weapon or took a weapon. Joel never lost a 1v1 at any point and straight up injured himself... with the fall.
    You didn't play either game and are obvious here to troll. I am done humoring you.

    Seriously, the person I was referring to with Abby was not a him and Abby didn't have a weapon in the rematch side something she may have found for a melee weapon, which didn't do much in the rematch fight. And punching doesn't mean they understand how to choke someone. So yeah, someone can knock someone down with a bunch, but then lose in a choking "contest." One does not mean crap to the other.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  12. #3272
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    You didn't play either game and are obvious here to troll. I am done humoring you.

    Seriously, the person I was referring to with Abby was not a him and Abby didn't have a weapon in the rematch side something she may have found for a melee weapon, which didn't do much in the rematch fight. And punching doesn't mean they understand how to choke someone. So yeah, someone can knock someone down with a bunch, but then lose in a choking "contest." One does not mean crap to the other.
    I watched 2 and 1 but ill rewatch both. Joel faced very little challenges in 1 and its more of an action movie power trip than two. Joel's game needed an antagonist like Abby to ground things. Nobody was his equal in that game despite Joel just body wise being average. Where were the two giants of people Abby fought? During the fight after the ambush in the car he overpowers 3 dudes despite being in a car crash. he just feels so cartoonish compared to Ellie campaign. It's something I'd change with a remaster. The two 6'5 giants in Abby campaign are enemies I'd put in the last of us one. I just don't understand why everyone is like only allowed to be a size that reasonable for Joel to beat. It ruins the realism. Joel just isn't that big of a guy.
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  13. #3273
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    I watched 2 and 1 but ill rewatch both. Joel faced very little challenges in 1 and its more of an action movie power trip than two. Joel's game needed an antagonist like Abby to ground things. Nobody was his equal in that game despite Joel just body wise being average. Where were the two giants of people Abby fought? During the fight after the ambush in the car he overpowers 3 dudes despite being in a car crash. he just feels so cartoonish compared to Ellie campaign. It's something I'd change with a remaster. The two 6'5 giants in Abby campaign are enemies I'd put in the last of us one. I just don't understand why everyone is like only allowed to be a size that reasonable for Joel to beat. It ruins the realism. Joel just isn't that big of a guy.
    Troll confirmed. You haven't played or watched the games. You are just here to cause trouble.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  14. #3274
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Troll confirmed. You haven't played or watched the games. You are just here to cause trouble.
    I just re-watched it and it feels like an action move compared to number 2. Joel honestly half insures himself he is so overpowered in the first game lol. I don't know how anyone bitches about Abby but ignores Joel going hulk on like full sets of grown men without a weapon and while being average build.
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  15. #3275
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    I just re-watched it and it feels like an action move compared to number 2. Joel honestly half insures himself he is so overpowered in the first game lol. I don't know how anyone bitches about Abby but ignores Joel going hulk on like full sets of grown men without a weapon and while being average build.
    Notice: No one is complaining about Abby fighting off dozens of people or beating them. The combat is not the issue. You are literally arguing against a strawman. That is evidence you are trolling. No one is going to take you seriously here.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  16. #3276
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Notice: No one is complaining about Abby fighting off dozens of people or beating them. The combat is not the issue. You are literally arguing against a strawman. That is evidence you are trolling. No one is going to take you seriously here.
    Not at all there were people who were stronger than Abby and just out classed her. She snuck around and got help from others. She wasn't a one man army like Joel.
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  17. #3277
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    Not at all there were people who were stronger than Abby and just out classed her. She snuck around and got help from others. She wasn't a one man army like Joel.
    Except she was an one woman army. And there were tons of people stronger than Joel, just because you beat someone doesn't mean you are stronger than they are. There are people on this planet weaker than I am who would kick my ass in a fight. This is the whole one punch vs choke thing again ... they aren't related. In the real world, if you take a body builder and put them against say an MMA fighter ... who do you think wins? By your logic, it must be 100% the body builder because he is stronger, but strength is only a part of the equation.

    You are making objectively false statement that Joel was the strongest in his game and then saying Abby wasn't also a one woman army ... you are applying different standards in an argument no one but you is making. If Joel was a one man army to you, than Abby is a one woman army by the same standard. No one is objecting to how the game plays, in fact, the controls and combat is pretty much the one thing most people agree is good.

    Seriously, the only reason I am responding to your trolling so so that if someone comes into this topic and doesn't understand you are trolling they may falsely believe you are right, even though your entire argument belong in a cow pasture.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  18. #3278
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Failing to differentiate narrative from gameplay is not my thing sorry. The gameplay is there to make it a good game, the narrative is there to be a narrative. No game that ever tried to link the two did it without one or the other suffering in some way. The ludo-narrative dissonance argument was shit in 2013 for Bioshock Infinite and it's still shit today for TLOU2 and for any game in between that tried to go there. The narrative in RDR2 for example is great and also quite grounded in reality, the gameplay on the other hand is quite the opposite with massive shoot outs and a super power in dead eye. Is this a problem? Absolutely not, the gameplay is there to be fun and give you action. For anyone who makes this argument I think you have the wrong hobby.

    You're barking up the wrong dev's tree if you ever think ND is going to give you some branching choice narrative. If you want that Obsidia, CDPR, Arkane or Bethesda are your guys... not ND.
    Do you have examples of games suffering from blending story and gameplay? In my books that has hardly ever done anything but enhance the experience, and yes, I do think Bioshock Infinite having the main character suffering from severe PTSD but still mowing down hundreds of mooks in various gory ways detracts from that game's story. I think that the empty endless shootouts of RDR2 (and 1, to be honest, if to a lesser extent) could have been trimmed down and the game would only improve from it. And I think both Uncharted and TLOU (both games mind) suffer from throwing tons of meat sacks with guns at the player whose only purpose is to die, the former because the game's tone is otherwise a fairly genial Indiana Jones adventure that turns into Call of Duty the moment the player takes control, the latter because this post- apocalyptic world sure has a shit ton of disposable humans in it and nobody cares that two-three people gun down hundreds.

    Take Fallout 3 and 4 vs New Vegas. The former have infinitely respawning raiders and random psychotic merc gangs absolutely filling the map and outnumbering the civilians a few dozen times over which makes no goddamn sense whatsoever, they just exist for the player to have something to shoot at. Whereas New Vegas has a minimal amount of automatically hostile human enemies, the vast majority of NPCs are faction-affiliated and react to your depending on your faction reputation, quest progress and past actions, which makes for a far more immersive and interesting game than one that tries to be a bad Max Mad ripoff. I can easily accept it in, say, Borderlands because it's a profoundly silly game that is all about being a shooting and looting gallery with characters to match, but Fallout is not that, or at least not supposed to be that.

    In another example, in Doom all you do is shoot demons in the face... so they made Doomguy someone whose literal only concern, want and endgoal is to shoot demons in the face and who solves every problem he comes across with violence, like one would expect from the protagonist of a high-octane FPS.

    I agree on branching narratives, shoehorning them into games where they don't belong can harm the experience... but maybe people want branching narrative for this specific game because they found the story deeply unsatisfying and/or biased as it was written.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  19. #3279
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Except she was an one woman army. And there were tons of people stronger than Joel, just because you beat someone doesn't mean you are stronger than they are. There are people on this planet weaker than I am who would kick my ass in a fight. This is the whole one punch vs choke thing again ... they aren't related. In the real world, if you take a body builder and put them against say an MMA fighter ... who do you think wins? By your logic, it must be 100% the body builder because he is stronger, but strength is only a part of the equation.

    You are making objectively false statement that Joel was the strongest in his game and then saying Abby wasn't also a one woman army ... you are applying different standards in an argument no one but you is making. If Joel was a one man army to you, than Abby is a one woman army by the same standard. No one is objecting to how the game plays, in fact, the controls and combat is pretty much the one thing most people agree is good.

    Seriously, the only reason I am responding to your trolling so so that if someone comes into this topic and doesn't understand you are trolling they may falsely believe you are right, even though your entire argument belong in a cow pasture.
    That's my problem there was nobody more powerful or skilled than Joel in the first game unlike the second. The second games world is more grounded but the first character development is better. Abby was a one women army with weakness she needed help during her campaign several times. She also had enemies that were just her superior. She needed weapons and outside to deal with them. Joel straight up gets into a car crash and than proceed to beat up 3 people with no weapons or assistance afterwards.

    It's not trolling you haven't refuted a single point, I made. The second games fights and world are so much more brutal from visual standpoint and design standpoint compared to the first. It something, I'd hope they add to the first in the remake.

    The first game needed more human enemies like this... Joel is average height and build there should be people that are just superior to him. Without that it turn the game into an action movie rather than a post apocalyptic survival game.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py_ivnOV2T4

    If lev wasn't there she was completely outclassed. Joel never had problems like that in the first game.

    It's not about just size but someone being more skilled than Joel would've been awesome as well. The Governor/Negan to rick games for Joel would make that game better.

    Resident Evil has some enemies like the chainsaw guys that will straight up one shot you. I hope they add enemies that will one shot Ellie if they grab her in the next game. Just people you have to run from and outsmart. It's something missing in a lot of horror games. They're people on this planet that can kill u in an kick or punch they should exist in the last of us as well.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-08-27 at 01:21 AM.
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  20. #3280
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    That's my problem there was nobody more powerful or skilled than Joel in the first game unlike the second.
    Objectively false statement.

    This is pure opinion with zero basis in the game. And there is evidence Joel isn't the most skilled or most powerful.

    For example:
    Marlene managed to take the same journey Joel and Ellie did and we don't know exactly how many other fireflies she had with her.
    Bill basically lives by himself out in the middle of an area having an entire town rigged up to protect him.
    Tommy is basically like Joel when it comes to skill and strength.
    There are several enemies that are physically larger than joel.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCycerwf2Ug - "He ain't even hurt." That man clearly has a larger build than Joel does.

    You even admit that Joel gets taken down by a punch, implying there ARE people physically stronger than Joel ... your own argument is self defeating.

    Also, Joel survive a car accident while in the driver seat with a seat belt. Abby literally survives in a car accident while in the bed of a truck without a seat belt. If you find Joel surviving a car accident unbelievable and not grounded, than that Abby applies too.

    The problem isn't that your points need refuting. The problem is you are NOT applying the same standard to Joel as you do to Abby. You will bend over backwards to make Abby seem more grounded, when she isn't and outright lie about a Joel.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

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