The Last of Us Part II

[Darththeo]

It is Joel is 5"9 an not even that muscular but he takes down armies of people while protecting Ellie. There was nobody in that game capable of doing what he did despite surviving just as long...

Gameplay =/= what actually happens in the story.

They did mess up her appearance bigger arm doesn't mean stronger. Your torso and legs generate more power. Abby needed smaller arms and massive thighs. Abby killed nowhere near as many people as Joel... She also ran into to people that could take her 1v1. Joel never ran into any of that... Abby keeps Ellie grounded unlike Joel who was the batman of his game. You know on sight if Abby grabs Ellie she is fucking dead.

Was he ever threatened physically in the first tlou? He had no equal in that game. Abby ran into that giant of a man and Tommy to keep her in check unlike Joel. She was also captured and tortured twice.

It's not out of place she and her group had a farm and found workout equipment. They were literally raising animals to eat for protein.

Do you understand how much time is required to be devoted not only to build that level of muscle but maintain it? It is something difficult without everything crashing down.

And Joel ran into a lot of people like that ... or did you forget Joel was seriously injured in the first game? Also, Abby only lost when taken by surprise one on one ... and she literally later beat that same person with less gear, while running for her life with two people that she had no idea would back her up and did little in the fight.

Seriously, stop trolling ... your posts are clearly not serious posts. Either actually put together an argument or just stop.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Gameplay =/= what actually happens in the story.



Do you understand how much time is required to be devoted not only to build that level of muscle but maintain it? It is something difficult without everything crashing down.

And Joel ran into a lot of people like that ... or did you forget Joel was seriously injured in the first game? Also, Abby only lost when taken by surprise one on one ... and she literally later beat that same person with less gear, while running for her life with two people that she had no idea would back her up and did little in the fight.

Seriously, stop trolling ... your posts are clearly not serious posts. Either actually put together an argument or just stop.

She had years and nothing to do and was also a solider. She beat him because she got a weapon. They had a farm of animals and abundance of food. Joel got injured because he fell down on a spike not because of losing a fight despite being pretty average build that is my issue.

Joel got into a choking contest overpowered the guy than beat him in one punch... That is challenging? Abby only won those fights because she found a weapon or took a weapon. Joel never lost a 1v1 at any point and straight up injured himself... with the fall.

Joel only bad trait is not trusting people. I'd love to trade sometime much grounded such realism but Abby though.

[Darththeo]

She had years and nothing to do and was also a solider. She beat him because she got a weapon. They had a farm of animals and abundance of food. Joel got injured because he fell down on a spike not because of losing a fight despite being pretty average build that is my issue. She beat him and a well.

Joel got into a choking contest overpowered the guy than beat him in one punch... That is challenging? Abby only won those fights because she found a weapon or took a weapon. Joel never lost a 1v1 at any point and straight up injured himself... with the fall.

You didn't play either game and are obvious here to troll. I am done humoring you.

Seriously, the person I was referring to with Abby was not a him and Abby didn't have a weapon in the rematch side something she may have found for a melee weapon, which didn't do much in the rematch fight. And punching doesn't mean they understand how to choke someone. So yeah, someone can knock someone down with a bunch, but then lose in a choking "contest." One does not mean crap to the other.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

You didn't play either game and are obvious here to troll. I am done humoring you.

Seriously, the person I was referring to with Abby was not a him and Abby didn't have a weapon in the rematch side something she may have found for a melee weapon, which didn't do much in the rematch fight. And punching doesn't mean they understand how to choke someone. So yeah, someone can knock someone down with a bunch, but then lose in a choking "contest." One does not mean crap to the other.

I watched 2 and 1 but ill rewatch both. Joel faced very little challenges in 1 and its more of an action movie power trip than two. Joel's game needed an antagonist like Abby to ground things. Nobody was his equal in that game despite Joel just body wise being average. Where were the two giants of people Abby fought? During the fight after the ambush in the car he overpowers 3 dudes despite being in a car crash. he just feels so cartoonish compared to Ellie campaign. It's something I'd change with a remaster. The two 6'5 giants in Abby campaign are enemies I'd put in the last of us one. I just don't understand why everyone is like only allowed to be a size that reasonable for Joel to beat. It ruins the realism. Joel just isn't that big of a guy.

[Darththeo]

I watched 2 and 1 but ill rewatch both. Joel faced very little challenges in 1 and its more of an action movie power trip than two. Joel's game needed an antagonist like Abby to ground things. Nobody was his equal in that game despite Joel just body wise being average. Where were the two giants of people Abby fought? During the fight after the ambush in the car he overpowers 3 dudes despite being in a car crash. he just feels so cartoonish compared to Ellie campaign. It's something I'd change with a remaster. The two 6'5 giants in Abby campaign are enemies I'd put in the last of us one. I just don't understand why everyone is like only allowed to be a size that reasonable for Joel to beat. It ruins the realism. Joel just isn't that big of a guy.

Troll confirmed. You haven't played or watched the games. You are just here to cause trouble.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Troll confirmed. You haven't played or watched the games. You are just here to cause trouble.

I just re-watched it and it feels like an action move compared to number 2. Joel honestly half insures himself he is so overpowered in the first game lol. I don't know how anyone bitches about Abby but ignores Joel going hulk on like full sets of grown men without a weapon and while being average build.

[Darththeo]

I just re-watched it and it feels like an action move compared to number 2. Joel honestly half insures himself he is so overpowered in the first game lol. I don't know how anyone bitches about Abby but ignores Joel going hulk on like full sets of grown men without a weapon and while being average build.

Notice: No one is complaining about Abby fighting off dozens of people or beating them. The combat is not the issue. You are literally arguing against a strawman. That is evidence you are trolling. No one is going to take you seriously here.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Notice: No one is complaining about Abby fighting off dozens of people or beating them. The combat is not the issue. You are literally arguing against a strawman. That is evidence you are trolling. No one is going to take you seriously here.

Not at all there were people who were stronger than Abby and just out classed her. She snuck around and got help from others. She wasn't a one man army like Joel.

[Darththeo]

Not at all there were people who were stronger than Abby and just out classed her. She snuck around and got help from others. She wasn't a one man army like Joel.

Except she was an one woman army. And there were tons of people stronger than Joel, just because you beat someone doesn't mean you are stronger than they are. There are people on this planet weaker than I am who would kick my ass in a fight. This is the whole one punch vs choke thing again ... they aren't related. In the real world, if you take a body builder and put them against say an MMA fighter ... who do you think wins? By your logic, it must be 100% the body builder because he is stronger, but strength is only a part of the equation.

You are making objectively false statement that Joel was the strongest in his game and then saying Abby wasn't also a one woman army ... you are applying different standards in an argument no one but you is making. If Joel was a one man army to you, than Abby is a one woman army by the same standard. No one is objecting to how the game plays, in fact, the controls and combat is pretty much the one thing most people agree is good.

Seriously, the only reason I am responding to your trolling so so that if someone comes into this topic and doesn't understand you are trolling they may falsely believe you are right, even though your entire argument belong in a cow pasture.

[Jastall]

Failing to differentiate narrative from gameplay is not my thing sorry. The gameplay is there to make it a good game, the narrative is there to be a narrative. No game that ever tried to link the two did it without one or the other suffering in some way. The ludo-narrative dissonance argument was shit in 2013 for Bioshock Infinite and it's still shit today for TLOU2 and for any game in between that tried to go there. The narrative in RDR2 for example is great and also quite grounded in reality, the gameplay on the other hand is quite the opposite with massive shoot outs and a super power in dead eye. Is this a problem? Absolutely not, the gameplay is there to be fun and give you action. For anyone who makes this argument I think you have the wrong hobby.

You're barking up the wrong dev's tree if you ever think ND is going to give you some branching choice narrative. If you want that Obsidia, CDPR, Arkane or Bethesda are your guys... not ND.

Do you have examples of games suffering from blending story and gameplay? In my books that has hardly ever done anything but enhance the experience, and yes, I do think Bioshock Infinite having the main character suffering from severe PTSD but still mowing down hundreds of mooks in various gory ways detracts from that game's story. I think that the empty endless shootouts of RDR2 (and 1, to be honest, if to a lesser extent) could have been trimmed down and the game would only improve from it. And I think both Uncharted and TLOU (both games mind) suffer from throwing tons of meat sacks with guns at the player whose only purpose is to die, the former because the game's tone is otherwise a fairly genial Indiana Jones adventure that turns into Call of Duty the moment the player takes control, the latter because this post- apocalyptic world sure has a shit ton of disposable humans in it and nobody cares that two-three people gun down hundreds.

Take Fallout 3 and 4 vs New Vegas. The former have infinitely respawning raiders and random psychotic merc gangs absolutely filling the map and outnumbering the civilians a few dozen times over which makes no goddamn sense whatsoever, they just exist for the player to have something to shoot at. Whereas New Vegas has a minimal amount of automatically hostile human enemies, the vast majority of NPCs are faction-affiliated and react to your depending on your faction reputation, quest progress and past actions, which makes for a far more immersive and interesting game than one that tries to be a bad Max Mad ripoff. I can easily accept it in, say, Borderlands because it's a profoundly silly game that is all about being a shooting and looting gallery with characters to match, but Fallout is not that, or at least not supposed to be that.

In another example, in Doom all you do is shoot demons in the face... so they made Doomguy someone whose literal only concern, want and endgoal is to shoot demons in the face and who solves every problem he comes across with violence, like one would expect from the protagonist of a high-octane FPS.

I agree on branching narratives, shoehorning them into games where they don't belong can harm the experience... but maybe people want branching narrative for this specific game because they found the story deeply unsatisfying and/or biased as it was written.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Except she was an one woman army. And there were tons of people stronger than Joel, just because you beat someone doesn't mean you are stronger than they are. There are people on this planet weaker than I am who would kick my ass in a fight. This is the whole one punch vs choke thing again ... they aren't related. In the real world, if you take a body builder and put them against say an MMA fighter ... who do you think wins? By your logic, it must be 100% the body builder because he is stronger, but strength is only a part of the equation.

You are making objectively false statement that Joel was the strongest in his game and then saying Abby wasn't also a one woman army ... you are applying different standards in an argument no one but you is making. If Joel was a one man army to you, than Abby is a one woman army by the same standard. No one is objecting to how the game plays, in fact, the controls and combat is pretty much the one thing most people agree is good.

Seriously, the only reason I am responding to your trolling so so that if someone comes into this topic and doesn't understand you are trolling they may falsely believe you are right, even though your entire argument belong in a cow pasture.

That's my problem there was nobody more powerful or skilled than Joel in the first game unlike the second. The second games world is more grounded but the first character development is better. Abby was a one women army with weakness she needed help during her campaign several times. She also had enemies that were just her superior. She needed weapons and outside to deal with them. Joel straight up gets into a car crash and than proceed to beat up 3 people with no weapons or assistance afterwards.

It's not trolling you haven't refuted a single point, I made. The second games fights and world are so much more brutal from visual standpoint and design standpoint compared to the first. It something, I'd hope they add to the first in the remake.

The first game needed more human enemies like this... Joel is average height and build there should be people that are just superior to him. Without that it turn the game into an action movie rather than a post apocalyptic survival game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py_ivnOV2T4

If lev wasn't there she was completely outclassed. Joel never had problems like that in the first game.

It's not about just size but someone being more skilled than Joel would've been awesome as well. The Governor/Negan to rick games for Joel would make that game better.

Resident Evil has some enemies like the chainsaw guys that will straight up one shot you. I hope they add enemies that will one shot Ellie if they grab her in the next game. Just people you have to run from and outsmart. It's something missing in a lot of horror games. They're people on this planet that can kill u in an kick or punch they should exist in the last of us as well.

[Darththeo]

That's my problem there was nobody more powerful or skilled than Joel in the first game unlike the second.

Objectively false statement.

This is pure opinion with zero basis in the game. And there is evidence Joel isn't the most skilled or most powerful.

For example:
Marlene managed to take the same journey Joel and Ellie did and we don't know exactly how many other fireflies she had with her.
Bill basically lives by himself out in the middle of an area having an entire town rigged up to protect him.
Tommy is basically like Joel when it comes to skill and strength.
There are several enemies that are physically larger than joel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCycerwf2Ug - "He ain't even hurt." That man clearly has a larger build than Joel does.

You even admit that Joel gets taken down by a punch, implying there ARE people physically stronger than Joel ... your own argument is self defeating.

Also, Joel survive a car accident while in the driver seat with a seat belt. Abby literally survives in a car accident while in the bed of a truck without a seat belt. If you find Joel surviving a car accident unbelievable and not grounded, than that Abby applies too.

The problem isn't that your points need refuting. The problem is you are NOT applying the same standard to Joel as you do to Abby. You will bend over backwards to make Abby seem more grounded, when she isn't and outright lie about a Joel.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Objectively false statement.

This is pure opinion with zero basis in the game. And there is evidence Joel isn't the most skilled or most powerful.

For example:
Marlene managed to take the same journey Joel and Ellie did and we don't know exactly how many other fireflies she had with her.
Bill basically lives by himself out in the middle of an area having an entire town rigged up to protect him.
Tommy is basically like Joel when it comes to skill and strength.
There are several enemies that are physically larger than joel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCycerwf2Ug - "He ain't even hurt." That man clearly has a larger build than Joel does.

You even admit that Joel gets taken down by a punch, implying there ARE people physically stronger than Joel ... your own argument is self defeating.

Also, Joel survive a car accident while in the driver seat with a seat belt. Abby literally survives in a car accident while in the bed of a truck without a seat belt. If you find Joel surviving a car accident unbelievable and not grounded, than that Abby applies too.

The problem isn't that your points need refuting. The problem is you are NOT applying the same standard to Joel as you do to Abby. You will bend over backwards to make Abby seem more grounded, when she isn't and outright lie about a Joel.

She managed to take that journey with help... Tommy fortified himself down... Joel complete his journey with no help basically.

No, I said Joel gets chocked and than takes a guy out with one punch before falling and getting injured. I don't Abby story is just more grounded she gets constant help unlike Joel who is a one man army. He legit gets into a car crash and than proceed to beat up three people afterwards. Joel beats up that bigger guy btw easily.

[Darththeo]

She managed to take that journey with help... Tommy fortified himself down... Joel complete his journey with no help basically.

No, I said Joel gets chocked and than takes a guy out with one punch before falling and getting injured. I don't Abby story is just more grounded she gets constant help unlike Joel who is a one man army. He legit gets into a car crash and than proceed to beat up three people afterwards. Joel beats up that bigger guy btw easily.

Abby literally beats an enemy that was bigger and stronger than anything Joel faced in the first game ... single handed. The Rat King alone is worse than anything Joel face. Joel had no help? Bill helped Joel. Ellie helped Joel. etc ... Joel had tons of help. This is the problem with your argument, you are outright lying about Joel to make it.

Abby is literally in a car crash and then gets into a firefight with more than three people shortly afterward. How you can't see that you are wrong here is beyond me. You lie about Joel and give Abby every benefit of the doubt. You can't do that.

[evanescene]

I just went through it to the end, the game seemed to be not finished normally ...

[RobertoCarlos]

This thread is so dissapointing. One of the best games of all time when being objective and you're discussing one man army's and how much muscle tone a female character got. This thread is patient zero on why you should not listen to feedback from the Internet and make your vision. This game was intense. The narrative was always there to supplement the gameplay. And the way it unfolds and ratchets up the tension was hugely enjoyable. One of the best games of the year easily

[Elim Garak]

This thread is so disappointing. One of the worst games of all time when being objective and yet we have people praising it endlessly and without rest. This thread is patient zero on why you should not listen to feedback from the Internet and make your vision. This game was intensely boring. The narrative was always out of sync with the gameplay. And the way it unfolds and tries to ratchet up the tension was falling flat. One of the worst games of the year, no doubt.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I wonder how long people will keep bumping the thread out of pure salt I’d have thought people would have gotten over it by now but I guess I didn’t factor in how invest people are in the first game or how salty they would be about this one as they are both meh to me.

[Darththeo]

This thread is so dissapointing. One of the best games of all time when being objective and you're discussing one man army's and how much muscle tone a female character got. This thread is patient zero on why you should not listen to feedback from the Internet and make your vision. This game was intense. The narrative was always there to supplement the gameplay. And the way it unfolds and ratchets up the tension was hugely enjoyable. One of the best games of the year easily

I am currently arguing with a person that did not play either game and "watched" playthrough. The only side "listening to the internet" is the side praising the game.

There are a lot of fundamental story flaws.

Ellie's story was fine, it was building up to a climax. Had a turning point where you realized that the WLF was fighting another enemy and thus maybe their behavior is because they are in a constant state of fighting with another group. And when you get to what should be the climax of the game, you get 10 hours as Abby that is basically flat story telling. Broken up into 3 parts: Find Owen, Fetch quest, and Go save Lev. It feels like side quests, rather than meaningful to the story at all.

Even the last part with Abby where we see her get captured was completely not needed because all it did was confirm the Fireflies were rebuilding.

You could cut out ALL the chapters with Abby and the final Ellie section, and this game would have a better more cohesive story. It also doesn't necessarily end happily as you could have had Abby live, leaving it open ended with Ellie suffering from PTSD and guilt. And then of course, you have the infection take even a further backseat in the story telling and setting where it pretty much doesn't matter.

[RobertoCarlos]

I am currently arguing with a person that did not play either game and "watched" playthrough. The only side "listening to the internet" is the side praising the game.

There are a lot of fundamental story flaws.

Ellie's story was fine, it was building up to a climax. Had a turning point where you realized that the WLF was fighting another enemy and thus maybe their behavior is because they are in a constant state of fighting with another group. And when you get to what should be the climax of the game, you get 10 hours as Abby that is basically flat story telling. Broken up into 3 parts: Find Owen, Fetch quest, and Go save Lev. It feels like side quests, rather than meaningful to the story at all.

Even the last part with Abby where we see her get captured was completely not needed because all it did was confirm the Fireflies were rebuilding.

You could cut out ALL the chapters with Abby and the final Ellie section, and this game would have a better more cohesive story. It also doesn't necessarily end happily as you could have had Abby live, leaving it open ended with Ellie suffering from PTSD and guilt. And then of course, you have the infection take even a further backseat in the story telling and setting where it pretty much doesn't matter.

The story was great actually. Going to the hospital through a giant apartment building that was gutted from the inside with infected was one of the most intense segments in any game I've played and couldn't put the controller down. Watching this game is not the same as wearing headphones on a higher difficulty at All. There was much more gameplay than expected of course some of the story elements serve as going from A to B like damn near every video game. You make abby a dude and 99% of complaints go away