1. #3301
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Hey man she didn't hit the gym in the whole 3 days the game takes place in. By my math she should of lost about 75% of her mass, skipping 3 days of gym while shit is hitting the fan makes it impossible to be buff!

    You know if they model swapped her to starving Abby from end of game these people would of never complained. I think they are intimidated by a woman with more mass then them, but they could fix that with a trip to the gym... oh but they would probably see women there that look like Abby and claim it was fake or they're on roids and get kicked out.
    Yeah she should have lost those gains traversing the wilderness and City buildings falling apart for sure.

    Speaking of her ending frame. A big part of why it hits you is because she was buff in the first place. If she was normal size it wouldn't have the same impact

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    Also I've never seen "one man army" complaints about a video game ever. That is rather telling. I didn't see doom eternal getting dismissed because the protag is too strong. Or red dead redemption 2 where you are a cowboy who literally fights armies. But I guess if you put a-cup tits on Arthur Morgan maybe they would have gotten it /shrug
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  2. #3302
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    This thread is so dissapointing. One of the best games of all time when being objective and you're discussing one man army's and how much muscle tone a female character got. This thread is patient zero on why you should not listen to feedback from the Internet and make your vision. This game was intense. The narrative was always there to supplement the gameplay. And the way it unfolds and ratchets up the tension was hugely enjoyable. One of the best games of the year easily
    And yet, they could have deleted an entire section of the game and the player wouldn't have missed anything. Seriously, Abby's story is inconsequential and pointless and does nothing but divert from Ellie's story, and the game is about her, after all. Abby's whole existence was to kill Joel, and if I had to make a guess, she'll be dead if DLC ever happens for the game. Or they'll kill off Ellie and invariably butcher the franchise in one fell swoop, putting the entire franchise in a casket because frankly, very few sane people want to play a game where you take the role of a god damn butcher.

  3. #3303
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    And yet, they could have deleted an entire section of the game and the player wouldn't have missed anything. Seriously, Abby's story is inconsequential and pointless and does nothing but divert from Ellie's story, and the game is about her, after all. Abby's whole existence was to kill Joel, and if I had to make a guess, she'll be dead if DLC ever happens for the game. Or they'll kill off Ellie and invariably butcher the franchise in one fell swoop, putting the entire franchise in a casket because frankly, very few sane people want to play a game where you take the role of a god damn butcher.
    Kind of disagree here. On one hand, you could be correct as far as not missing anything if you only care about and have interest in Ellie. If you have an open mind about it then Abby’s story adds a lot to the game as it humanizes her and her friends and elicits a more thought provoking narrative into the fact that no one is correct in their actions and both are the hero to their own story while the other is the villain.
    Its kind of like the reviews I’ve seen where people talk about how Ellie’s dramatic and intense scenes with Abby’s friends are devalued and not as impactful because in the gameplay she miss down multiple enemies without a care about them. The flip side is that she does this in gameplay as self defense and to get to her goal, whereas with Abby’s friends she does something she’s never done before and the other was trying to defend herself and Ellie discovers something after she’s dead.
    If you don’t show interest in the entire story then certain things seem cheapened, when with just a little thought they really aren’t.

  4. #3304
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Kind of disagree here. On one hand, you could be correct as far as not missing anything if you only care about and have interest in Ellie. If you have an open mind about it then Abby’s story adds a lot to the game as it humanizes her and her friends and elicits a more thought provoking narrative into the fact that no one is correct in their actions and both are the hero to their own story while the other is the villain.
    Its kind of like the reviews I’ve seen where people talk about how Ellie’s dramatic and intense scenes with Abby’s friends are devalued and not as impactful because in the gameplay she miss down multiple enemies without a care about them. The flip side is that she does this in gameplay as self defense and to get to her goal, whereas with Abby’s friends she does something she’s never done before and the other was trying to defend herself and Ellie discovers something after she’s dead.
    If you don’t show interest in the entire story then certain things seem cheapened, when with just a little thought they really aren’t.
    Mm, my issue is that the story doesn’t do a good job of humanizing Abby. She continually makes choices that show her to be an overall awful person, with the only real exception being her interaction with Lev (which, even that can be taken as “he saved me first so I owe him”). Even with the attempt to add dimension to the story with the shift in perspective, I still would’ve preferred an option to kill her or leave her crucified. I still want her dead just as much as I did at the beginning of the game.

  5. #3305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    , very few sane people want to play a game where you take the role of a god damn butcher.
    wait are we pretending that god of war or doom aren't really popular games now?

  6. #3306
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    wait are we pretending that god of war or doom aren't really popular games now?
    Oh that same guy argued Kratos and Trevor where good guys months ago. It's all good to be a butcher if it's a male power fantasy. That makes them a "hero" and not a "butcher" didn't you get the memo?

  7. #3307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    wait are we pretending that god of war or doom aren't really popular games now?
    Comparing games that are both fantastical and pretty shallow in their story telling to TLOU is pretty stupid, if you ask me. Games like those are vapid fun, and killing humans isn't the same as killing monsters in terms of brutality. Killing humans because they have different beliefs, morals or lust for power and control isn't even remotely the same as killing hordes of monsters.

  8. #3308
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    Mm, my issue is that the story doesn’t do a good job of humanizing Abby. She continually makes choices that show her to be an overall awful person, with the only real exception being her interaction with Lev (which, even that can be taken as “he saved me first so I owe him”). Even with the attempt to add dimension to the story with the shift in perspective, I still would’ve preferred an option to kill her or leave her crucified. I still want her dead just as much as I did at the beginning of the game.
    Well her parents were killed by a dude breaking out the only known cure when she was a teenager. There's a reason she has issues. And she's not all that bad otherwise she wouldn't have gone into the hospital and fought patient zero for some random she just met that cut her down
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  9. #3309
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Well her parents were killed by a dude breaking out the only known cure when she was a teenager. There's a reason she has issues. And she's not all that bad otherwise she wouldn't have gone into the hospital and fought patient zero for some random she just met that cut her down
    Agree to disagree. Everyone has issues, some people work past those to be better people and some don’t. The only redeemable element of Abby’s character is her connection with Lev.

  10. #3310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Comparing games that are both fantastical and pretty shallow in their story telling to TLOU is pretty stupid, if you ask me. Games like those are vapid fun, and killing humans isn't the same as killing monsters in terms of brutality. Killing humans because they have different beliefs, morals or lust for power and control isn't even remotely the same as killing hordes of monsters.
    god of war isn't shallow in it's story at all but lets ignore that for the moment. you want games where your a butcher killing human's for different beliefs morals or lust for power and control? Grand theft auto,far cry,call of duty,borderlands. take your pick there is absolutely no lack of games where you play as a butcher killing human's for one reason or another that are insanely popular.

  11. #3311
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    god of war isn't shallow in it's story at all but lets ignore that for the moment. you want games where your a butcher killing human's for different beliefs morals or lust for power and control? Grand theft auto,far cry,call of duty,borderlands. take your pick there is absolutely no lack of games where you play as a butcher killing human's for one reason or another that are insanely popular.
    Which God of War? I haven’t finished the newest one, but the old ones from the PS2 era was pretty shallow. Story=family dies, mad guy kills people in response. That’s it. There’s not some sweeping narrative.
    Agreed that there are plenty of other games that all fit the criteria of what you are discussing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    Agree to disagree. Everyone has issues, some people work past those to be better people and some don’t. The only redeemable element of Abby’s character is her connection with Lev.
    Keep in mind Abby doesn’t need redeemed. There’s nothing happening after the fact to redeem her of what she did. The backstory shows that she is seeking revenge for what happened, as well as her friends who are with her. They went and got revenge on the man who stole not only theirs, but the entire worlds, potential future of ridding themselves of a plague.
    The background, as well as the present, storytelling aren’t there to redeem her, but to show she is just like Ellie and Joel. They are all people who are surviving, who seek revenge and do things to get it. Hell, if you pay attention to Ellie’s story it comes out Joel and Tommy have done worse things to other people than me hat Abby did. The whole point isn’t to justify or redeem her, but to be narrative to show she’s just another human living in a post apocalyptic world who does things to survive, and revenge, just like the main characters from the 1st game.

  12. #3312
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    god of war isn't shallow in it's story at all but lets ignore that for the moment. you want games where your a butcher killing human's for different beliefs morals or lust for power and control? Grand theft auto,far cry,call of duty,borderlands. take your pick there is absolutely no lack of games where you play as a butcher killing human's for one reason or another that are insanely popular.
    god of war is a poor comparison. it's in the name. we know what we are going to do in the game and we are doing it. total sync.

    If TLOU2 was all about Abby, i.e. you start as her and end as her - showing us the story of revenge and her growth from that, killing both Joel and Ellie in the process (well sorta letting Ellie go in the end would've worked as well) - that would've been a better story. No one would've complained much about Abby's appearance and substance. Heck, there could've been a minigame at the gym - go pump some iron, Abby, press square to pump, instead of dog petting.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  13. #3313
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Which God of War? I haven’t finished the newest one, but the old ones from the PS2 era was pretty shallow. Story=family dies, mad guy kills people in response. That’s it. There’s not some sweeping narrative.
    Agreed that there are plenty of other games that all fit the criteria of what you are discussing.

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    Keep in mind Abby doesn’t need redeemed. There’s nothing happening after the fact to redeem her of what she did. The backstory shows that she is seeking revenge for what happened, as well as her friends who are with her. They went and got revenge on the man who stole not only theirs, but the entire worlds, potential future of ridding themselves of a plague.
    The background, as well as the present, storytelling aren’t there to redeem her, but to show she is just like Ellie and Joel. They are all people who are surviving, who seek revenge and do things to get it. Hell, if you pay attention to Ellie’s story it comes out Joel and Tommy have done worse things to other people than me hat Abby did. The whole point isn’t to justify or redeem her, but to be narrative to show she’s just another human living in a post apocalyptic world who does things to survive, and revenge, just like the main characters from the 1st game.
    To me, Joel is redeemed during the course of the first game. I feel that didn’t happen with Abby, so I still despise the character. Even if a cure could’ve been developed from murdering Ellie (it wouldn’t have, but for the sake of argument I’ll entertain the thought), that didn’t factor into Abby’s motivations at all. Her quest for revenge is exactly the same as Ellie’s to be sure, but it’s Abby going out of her way to be a complete piece of subhuman trash 95% of the rest of the time that, to me at least, defines her as a character. For me, a character like that does need redemption if I’m supposed to empathize with her. If I’m not supposed to empathize with her, then forcing me to play as her for 10+ hours is intellectual sadism on the part of the developers.

  14. #3314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Which God of War? I haven’t finished the newest one, but the old ones from the PS2 era was pretty shallow. Story=family dies, mad guy kills people in response. That’s it. There’s not some sweeping narrative.
    Agreed that there are plenty of other games that all fit the criteria of what you are discussing.
    with out going into a short essay or going into the none main line games which only expand the story further shortening it down to family dies mad guy kills people while technically right strips so much out of the actual story.

    for just some of the extra story details of just the main line games there's, Kratos trying to hold onto who he was while falling further and further, the god's and how they are effected by the opening of pandora's box, every thing with the prophecy of kratos being the son of zeus, Athena Playing kratos like a fiddle to try and usurp the pantheon, ect ect.

    sure on the surface god of war is just mad guys kills people but there is so much more going on in the narrative which is also massively expanded in none 1-3 games. the series didn't have such a massive leap as people would think going into 4 it's just that alot of the stuff in the previous games was easy to miss due to how over the top things like the violence and nudity were for the time and that the base base story of revenge is alot simpler on the surface then a man trying to be better and raise his son right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    god of war is a poor comparison. it's in the name. we know what we are going to do in the game and we are doing it. total sync.

    If TLOU2 was all about Abby, i.e. you start as her and end as her - showing us the story of revenge and her growth from that, killing both Joel and Ellie in the process (well sorta letting Ellie go in the end would've worked as well) - that would've been a better story. No one would've complained much about Abby's appearance and substance. Heck, there could've been a minigame at the gym - go pump some iron, Abby, press square to pump, instead of dog petting.
    Ya I don't buy that for a second. With the current atmosphere around gaming in general we would have seen most of the same complains. while the story may have been better the people crying about abby killing joel or her appearance would still be doing so.

  15. #3315
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post

    Ya I don't buy that for a second. With the current atmosphere around gaming in general we would have seen most of the same complains. while the story may have been better the people crying about abby killing joel or her appearance would still be doing so.
    Of course, we would, hence I said "as much"
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  16. #3316
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    It would be pretty boring if they made us lift dumb bells and do squats. I'd rather do the much more interesting shit like in her story like being close with the wolves then getting close with the scar runaways than learn more about her weight/cardio gym break down. And they do make references to it anyway so you're the one lying
    Did I say have an interactive exercise session? No, I didn't. You are as bad as Tech ... ignore what is said, make up a strawman, argue against strawman, say the person is being unreasonable.

    And no, they do not make references to her working out as much as would be required. Having a gym in the stadium isn't a reference ... and that is the ONLY "reference." Again, change Manny finding her passed out in the library with her passed out in the gym after a workout. Don't have her be Isaac's number 1 scar killer, but have him upset at her for wasting their resources. These are minor changes that help build the idea that her build is reasonable. I am literally talking a line here or minor changes to a scene. And you go "A fully interactive squat session would be boring!" Literally, not what I even said. And given FF7 has an inactive squat session and people seem to like and other games had interactive exercise sessions that people enjoy because they are worked into the story ... I am calling bullshit on it being by definition boring.

    But the fact she can exercise as much as needed and eat as much as needed while still having enough time to be on patrol enough to be the Number 1 Scar Killer is nonsensical story telling. Either the rest of the WLF are completely inept at killing scars or Abby wouldn't have enough time to bulk up.

    And you have no grounds to call me a liar when you don't understand what the story of the game is. World building aspects are not the story of the game, they are added and often needed fluff. Or another way to put it, it is icing, not cake. And having a lot of icing doesn't make the cake itself good. Gameplay and environment aren't the story. Abby's missions are glorified side quests. She has no overall goal in her stories, Ellie does. But because they devoted time and resources to Abby's story, the side characters in Ellie's story suffer for ... Jesse and Dina do not get the attention they deserve to be fully realized characters and have a purpose in the story other than "be Ellie's back up."

    I don't give a crap if you like the story, that is personal preference. You have every right to like bad stories. I have a problem when you treat it as a fact a good story and everyone else is wrong. I have a problem with people like Tech that support the argument if you didn't like it you are sexist (even though he doesn't have the decency to actually make the accusation directly.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Ya I don't buy that for a second. With the current atmosphere around gaming in general we would have seen most of the same complains. while the story may have been better the people crying about abby killing joel or her appearance would still be doing so.
    Pretty much gaming in general right now. And the people calling TLoU2 "woke" don't seem to have played the same game as I did. Lev being transgender is worked into his character, but they are not in your face that Lev is trans. They are very natural in building Lev into the world in a reasonable manner. Lev and Yara were the best part of Abby's story, but we don't get to spend enough time with them to really flesh out their characters.

    I hate how that I complain about issues I have with Abby, that I get roped into the people who just hate Abby for killing Joel and that I am just mad that "Buff lady killed male protag!"
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  17. #3317
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Abby literally beats an enemy that was bigger and stronger than anything Joel faced in the first game ... single handed. The Rat King alone is worse than anything Joel face. Joel had no help? Bill helped Joel. Ellie helped Joel. etc ... Joel had tons of help. This is the problem with your argument, you are outright lying about Joel to make it.

    Abby is literally in a car crash and then gets into a firefight with more than three people shortly afterward. How you can't see that you are wrong here is beyond me. You lie about Joel and give Abby every benefit of the doubt. You can't do that.
    Abby was in a car crash and got into a fire fight with several people helping. Joel was in a car crash and got into a fight with 3 people while having to watch out for Ellie. The rat king is a zombie... not a human there creativity is limited.. Its like if Joel solo'd a bloater in first game. It's a dumb creature that runs on instinct. Not really an accomplish.

    Humans are more of a threaten than the zombies... The fungus is what makes the takeover of humanity realistic. If it didn't spread like in the games the military would've handled it with easy. Unkempt water supplies are scary because the fungus could spread through them. That is what makes the game so much more realistic. It's like the walking dead were the military and a clean and easy way to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    Mm, my issue is that the story doesn’t do a good job of humanizing Abby. She continually makes choices that show her to be an overall awful person, with the only real exception being her interaction with Lev (which, even that can be taken as “he saved me first so I owe him”). Even with the attempt to add dimension to the story with the shift in perspective, I still would’ve preferred an option to kill her or leave her crucified. I still want her dead just as much as I did at the beginning of the game.
    That the points she doesn't become a decent person till later... Some suppose martyr or saviors are hypocrites.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-09-01 at 03:53 PM.
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  18. #3318
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    Abby was in a car crash and got into a fire fight with several people helping. Joel was in a car crash and got into a fight with 3 people while having to watch out for Ellie. The rat king is a zombie... not a human there creativity is limited.. Its like if Joel solo'd a bloater in first game. It's a dumb creature that runs on instinct. Not really an accomplish.
    Abby had Manny and Mel ... Mel who was pregnant and a medic (not a combat specialist). After being in a car crash where Mel and Abby were in the bed of a truck, that they survived with no effective injuries whatsoever. (Mel got shot at some point, but it is never confirmed when). Joel's accident you keep bring up had him in the front seat with a seat belt on. And he went to fight 3 people ... oh my, one person can't possible have beat three people ... so unreasonable.

    The rat king is worse than any bloater, so even if Joel did solo a bloater, you'd hold it against him and make up some BS to show that the Rat King is some how more minor. And yes, it is. By your logic, if I survived a bear attack it "isn't an accomplishment" because it is just a dumb creature. Yes, humans have creativity, but just because humans can be creative doesn't mean they are. And given the people Joel was fighting just had their plan blow up because Joel didn't fall for the fake injury, for all we know they were improvising and didn't have a plan ... therefor, not that impressive.

    Your argument is twist anything Joel does to make it unreasonable, but bend over backwards to make anything Abby does believable. You are treating Joel differently than Abby, but I don't know why I am surprised ... YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE STORY OF THE GAME IS.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  19. #3319
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Abby had Manny and Mel ... Mel who was pregnant and a medic (not a combat specialist). After being in a car crash where Mel and Abby were in the bed of a truck, that they survived with no effective injuries whatsoever. (Mel got shot at some point, but it is never confirmed when). Joel's accident you keep bring up had him in the front seat with a seat belt on. And he went to fight 3 people ... oh my, one person can't possible have beat three people ... so unreasonable.

    The rat king is worse than any bloater, so even if Joel did solo a bloater, you'd hold it against him and make up some BS to show that the Rat King is some how more minor. And yes, it is. By your logic, if I survived a bear attack it "isn't an accomplishment" because it is just a dumb creature. Yes, humans have creativity, but just because humans can be creative doesn't mean they are. And given the people Joel was fighting just had their plan blow up because Joel didn't fall for the fake injury, for all we know they were improvising and didn't have a plan ... therefor, not that impressive.

    Your argument is twist anything Joel does to make it unreasonable, but bend over backwards to make anything Abby does believable. You are treating Joel differently than Abby, but I don't know why I am surprised ... YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE STORY OF THE GAME IS.
    Dude it's the 2nd game. Of course the rat King is stronger than anything in the first game. Video games like to bring new challenges not just repeat themselves otherwise you may as well just play the first game again.

    And it's been a few years since the first game was set so it makes sense there are stronger zombies as they have had more time to grow. Jesus.
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  20. #3320
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Dude it's the 2nd game. Of course the rat King is stronger than anything in the first game. Video games like to bring new challenges not just repeat themselves otherwise you may as well just play the first game again.

    And it's been a few years since the first game was set so it makes sense there are stronger zombies as they have had more time to grow. Jesus.
    I understand that, and you missed the point of my argument. Jack here is trying to argue that what Joel did is unreasonable, while Abby has a more reasonable story. I would even state he is arguing that Abby is a better written character than Joel. I brought up the Rat King to point out that Abby soloed something far beyond anything we have seen Joel face in the games.

    Yes, new games bring in new challenges, but we are comparing the challenges that each character faces in their respective story line.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
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