1. #3321
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I understand that, and you missed the point of my argument. Jack here is trying to argue that what Joel did is unreasonable, while Abby has a more reasonable story. I would even state he is arguing that Abby is a better written character than Joel. I brought up the Rat King to point out that Abby soloed something far beyond anything we have seen Joel face in the games.

    Yes, new games bring in new challenges, but we are comparing the challenges that each character faces in their respective story line.
    They are video game characters. You wanna talk about realism?

    OK why do they never get tired doing parkour? In real life lifting yourself up over rails climbing buildings etc you'd be lucky to do it for a few hours. How do they do it over 3 days non stop while fighting/stealthing and not eating any food on screen. Hmmm!

    I call fake bs! Not even realistic at all
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  2. #3322
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    They are video game characters. You wanna talk about realism?

    OK why do they never get tired doing parkour? In real life lifting yourself up over rails climbing buildings etc you'd be lucky to do it for a few hours. How do they do it over 3 days non stop while fighting/stealthing and not eating any food on screen. Hmmm!

    I call fake bs! Not even realistic at all
    Maybe I am not being clear.

    Video games require a sense of believable realism ... meaning that they built the world in such a way that people feel the world is a real world and that they get immersed in the story. There are things that break that. I don't complain about Skyrim where the character essentially can run across the world, because literally any character in that world can do that. So why it is unrealistic for our world, it is realistic for Skyrim. Do you get what I am saying?

    Now some games choose to completely ignore any semblance of realism and don't bother setting rules on anything like that ... but TLoU2 is not one of those games. It is specific set to be grounded and characters in the first game felt like real people. Abby feels like a cartoon character to me doing whatever the plot demands, rather than a person experiencing the world and making choices. I love Laura Bailey as a voice actor, she is definitely in my top 5 voice actors of all time, if not top 3 and I could tell she was doing her best.

    My argument with Jack here is he is arguing Abby is MORE realistic and MORE reasonable than Joel was in the first game. And rather than apply the same logic to Abby as Joel, he takes whatever happened to Joel and twists it until he barely describes the event and ignores all of Abby's events and bends over backwards to make them seem more realistic and reasonable when they are not.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  3. #3323
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Maybe I am not being clear.

    Video games require a sense of believable realism ... meaning that they built the world in such a way that people feel the world is a real world and that they get immersed in the story. There are things that break that. I don't complain about Skyrim where the character essentially can run across the world, because literally any character in that world can do that. So why it is unrealistic for our world, it is realistic for Skyrim. Do you get what I am saying?

    Now some games choose to completely ignore any semblance of realism and don't bother setting rules on anything like that ... but TLoU2 is not one of those games. It is specific set to be grounded and characters in the first game felt like real people. Abby feels like a cartoon character to me doing whatever the plot demands, rather than a person experiencing the world and making choices. I love Laura Bailey as a voice actor, she is definitely in my top 5 voice actors of all time, if not top 3 and I could tell she was doing her best.

    My argument with Jack here is he is arguing Abby is MORE realistic and MORE reasonable than Joel was in the first game. And rather than apply the same logic to Abby as Joel, he takes whatever happened to Joel and twists it until he barely describes the event and ignores all of Abby's events and bends over backwards to make them seem more realistic and reasonable when they are not.
    What you're referencing is the suspension of disbelief, and it's a vitally important factor when it comes to any medium of fiction. It allows there to be jumping of conclusions, fuzzy math/science, or straight up "wait, this isn't possible in real life!" to be smoothed over in your mind to allow a cohesive experience. Good media does an excellent job of smoothing things over, terrible media does not.

    One of my biggest gripes about many games and movies nowadays is that creators either don't care about making content where you can feasibly suspend your disbelief, or they're terrible at it. A huge way to making it difficult for people to suspend their disbelief is to constantly barrage them with things that all fail to make sense, either on a small level or in huge game/reality-breaking ways... what's worse is when it isn't important to the story or gets shoe-horned in. Another huge way, when it comes to sequels/trilogies/etc., is to completely ignore/disregard cannon constantly, make established characters act or think in certain ways that is way out of character. Furthermore, when writers get lazy everything becomes a plot device or on-the-nose preaching or exposition, to where it's so bad that you cannot invest yourself in a story because you feel like the creator is treating its audience like idiots. The list goes on, but my posts have been long recently so I won't keep going.

    In the case of TLOU2, I'd lean towards the creators didn't care to try to craft a narrative that appealed to a normal person's suspension of disbelief. It's littered with character inconsistencies, contrived scenarios that only work if everyone is as dumb as a rock who is half-asleep, and forced messaging that is plainly obvious their real goal when it comes to the story. As is the case with the people in charge of creating Star Trek content as of late, these creators are treating the game as a platform to preach their narratives and agendas, not make content that appeals to a wide base of fans or new players.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. #3324
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Maybe I am not being clear.

    Video games require a sense of believable realism ... meaning that they built the world in such a way that people feel the world is a real world and that they get immersed in the story. There are things that break that. I don't complain about Skyrim where the character essentially can run across the world, because literally any character in that world can do that. So why it is unrealistic for our world, it is realistic for Skyrim. Do you get what I am saying?

    Now some games choose to completely ignore any semblance of realism and don't bother setting rules on anything like that ... but TLoU2 is not one of those games. It is specific set to be grounded and characters in the first game felt like real people. Abby feels like a cartoon character to me doing whatever the plot demands, rather than a person experiencing the world and making choices. I love Laura Bailey as a voice actor, she is definitely in my top 5 voice actors of all time, if not top 3 and I could tell she was doing her best.

    My argument with Jack here is he is arguing Abby is MORE realistic and MORE reasonable than Joel was in the first game. And rather than apply the same logic to Abby as Joel, he takes whatever happened to Joel and twists it until he barely describes the event and ignores all of Abby's events and bends over backwards to make them seem more realistic and reasonable when they are not.
    Joel gets impaled by a massive pole after falling over 2 meters straight onto his back/head and still manages to clear out a compound of fireflies. If you're getting worked up about Abby surviving a crash you are not being genuine
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  5. #3325
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Joel gets impaled by a massive pole after falling over 2 meters straight onto his back/head and still manages to clear out a compound of fireflies. If you're getting worked up about Abby surviving a crash you are not being genuine
    "Massive Pole" ... is was rebar ... which people in the real work have survived being impaled with. That is more of an issue that Ellie managed to treat him than Joel surviving. Where it went through him was not likely to hit a vital organ as it is low on his torso. People survive that, with treatment in the real world.

    Time passes between that injury and to when he takes on the Fireflies (which is gameplay, we don't know how many he canonly had to fight). You need to separate gameplay from the story. For example, in many shooters too many underlings to mow through is common place. He didn't get impaled, get up and then shot up an entire building one day to the next.

    Abby survived at least two story fall into a pool going through a glass roof without injury and then progresses down several stories of an infected building that is falling apart on the inside. Abby survived falling two meters onto her back and head as well after having just went through a burning building, nearly have been crushed by rubble ... while in a fight where both sides want her dead. After barely surviving somehow has the energy to go kick Ellie's ass because Ellie's crew stupidly left the map behind.

    Yes, Joel has unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story actually does it best to explain how he was able to do it. Abby does unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story does so little to explain it ... she just does.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-09-01 at 10:50 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  6. #3326
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    "Massive Pole" ... is was rebar ... which people in the real work have survived being impaled with. That is more of an issue that Ellie managed to treat him than Joel surviving. Where it went through him was not likely to hit a vital organ as it is low on his torso. People survive that, with treatment in the real world.

    Time passes between that injury and to when he takes on the Fireflies (which is gameplay, we don't know how many he canonly had to fight). You need to separate gameplay from the story. For example, in many shooters too many underlings to mow through is common place. He didn't get impaled, get up and then shot up and entire building one day to the next.

    Abby survived at least two story fall into a pool going through a glass roof without injury and then progresses down several stories of an infected building that is falling apart on the inside. Abby survived falling two meters onto her back and head as well after having just went through a burning building, nearly have been crushed by rubble ... while in a fight where both sides want her dead. After barely surviving somehow has the energy to go kick Ellie's ass because Ellie's crew stupidly left the map behind.

    Yes, Joel has unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story actually does it best to explain how he was able to do it. Abby does unrealistic and unbelievable things, but the story does so little to explain it ... she just does.


    He gets pushed over a balcony so even extra force momentum and looks to be over 3 meters high. And where he lands the pole go straight through his kidneys.

    Being generous and if he got top level surgery instantly with the correct blood bags on hand MAYBE.

    But getting a little girl to pull you up while you hemorrhage blood and no clean tools/medicare anywhere in sight, im gonna go with dead
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  7. #3327
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I understand that, and you missed the point of my argument. Jack here is trying to argue that what Joel did is unreasonable, while Abby has a more reasonable story. I would even state he is arguing that Abby is a better written character than Joel. I brought up the Rat King to point out that Abby soloed something far beyond anything we have seen Joel face in the games.

    Yes, new games bring in new challenges, but we are comparing the challenges that each character faces in their respective story line.
    No, I think she has a more realistic and grounded journey physics wise. The last of us had a 9/10 character development.
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  8. #3328
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    No, I think she has a more realistic and grounded journey physics wise. The last of us had a 9/10 character development.
    Except she literally doesn't. She survives more shit in 3 days than Joel did in the whole game of TLoU.

    She survives a car accident where she is in the bed.
    She survives nearly being lynched.
    She survives falling several stories into a pool that magically still had water in it.
    She survives traversing a building full of infected that is in the process of collaspe.
    She survives fighting the Rat King.
    She survives a battle where both sides want her dead.
    She survives going through a burning building.

    And that isn't everything and that is all in 3 days.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-09-01 at 11:21 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  9. #3329
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Except she literally doesn't. She survives more shit in 3 days than Joel did in the whole game of TLoU.
    Link video evidence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js59biTfIzk

    Joel legit has a minor concussion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRttuPG73-o

    By the time the car crashed it lost like 90% of its momentum. She also had 3 people helping her. Where as Joel after having what appeared to be a minor concussion killed 3 people with no help.

    Joel survives an ambush with a concussion while protecting Ellie.
    He survives getting impaled with a pole.

    She survived because she got help in most of those situation the rat king is also a fk moron.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-09-01 at 11:33 PM.
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  10. #3330
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Except she literally doesn't. She survives more shit in 3 days than Joel did in the whole game of TLoU.

    She survives a car accident where she is in the bed.
    She survives nearly being lynched.
    She survives falling several stories into a pool that magically still had water in it.
    She survives traversing a building full of infected that is in the process of collaspe.
    She survives fighting the Rat King.
    She survives a battle where both sides want her dead.
    She survives going through a burning building.

    And that isn't everything and that is all in 3 days.
    nothing worse than what ellie goes through in the 2nd game.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  11. #3331
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    Link video evidence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js59biTfIzk

    Joel legit has a minor concussion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRttuPG73-o

    By the time the car crashed it lost like 90% of its momentum. She also had 3 people helping her. Where as Joel after having what appeared to be a minor concussion killed 3 people with no help.
    Do you can't even watch your own videos. The truck didn't lose 90% of it momentum by the time it crashed ... it was crashing during that loss of momentum AND she was in the bed of the truck, which is literally the worst place to be in during a crash..

    And as someone who has had several minor concussions, someone like Joel should not have that hard of a time fighting off three men with his skill set.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-09-01 at 11:35 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  12. #3332
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Do you can't even watch your own videos. He didn't lose 90% of it momentum by the time it crashed ... it was crashing during that loss of momentum AND she was in the bed of the truck, which is literally the worse place to be in during a crash..
    And they barely moved on impact because it was losing momentum... Joel legit has a fk concussion and fights off 3 people.
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  13. #3333
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    And they barely moved on impact because it was losing momentum... Joel legit has a fk concussion and fights off 3 people.
    Which isn't that unbelievable if you actually understood what a concussion is. You clearly don't

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    nothing worse than what ellie goes through in the 2nd game.
    Well, Ellie has to go through the 2nd game ... so I guess.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  14. #3334
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Which isn't that unbelievable if you actually understood what a concussion is. You clearly don't
    It is and it less ground than Abby crash scene. Joel face was near glass and he just magically gains the upper hand towards the end than proceed to take down to other men with no help. Abby at least had her friends. It's not unbelievable put smells of power fantasy in a survival game. I told the first last of us is an action game and the second one is an attempt at a survival game.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-09-01 at 11:40 PM.
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  15. #3335
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    It is and it less ground than Abby crash scene. Joel face was near glass and he just magically gains the upper hand towards the end than proceed to take down to other men with no help. Abby at least had her friends. It's not unbelievable put smells of power fantasy in a survival game. I told the first last of us is an action game and the second one is an attempt at a survival game.
    Neither are a full survival game. Both literally play practically identical with the only difference ... you can go prone in the sequel. If anything, the survival aspects are more toned down in the sequel than the original. Both are more stealth action than survival.

    No, it isn't more unbelievable just because you lack understanding of what a concussion really is. Your ignorance isn't evidence. I have had concussion like Joel, and while your head hurts like crazy, it isn't something that you can't push yourself through. That isn't power fantasy, it is literally something that happens in the real world. To soldiers, to football players, to farmboys, etc...

    And beating three people isn't a "power fantasy" ... if that is your measure, that TLoU2 is a power fantasy too. That's my problem with your argument, is that you refuse to apply the same standard to Abby's character as you do Joel's. You have no problem holding a hypocritical standpoint.

    Abby's stuff is "more grounded" despite happening in 3 DAYS than Joel's which had to have taken AT LEAST 3 MONTHS if not 6 months. Is nonsense ... there is no way to make that argument. It is like saying TLJ has a "more reasonable" story than ESB when it comes to Star Wars.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-09-02 at 12:25 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  16. #3336
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Neither are a full survival game. Both literally play practically identical with the only difference ... you can go prone in the sequel. If anything, the survival aspects are more toned down in the sequel than the original. Both are more stealth action than survival.

    No, it isn't more unbelievable just because you lack understanding of what a concussion really is. Your ignorance isn't evidence. I have had concussion like Joel, and while your head hurts like crazy, it isn't something that you can't push yourself through. That isn't power fantasy, it is literally something that happens in the real world. To soldiers, to football players, to farmboys, etc...

    And beating three people isn't a "power fantasy" ... if that is your measure, that TLoU2 is a power fantasy too. That's my problem with your argument, is that you refuse to apply the same standard to Abby's character as you do Joel's. You have no problem holding a hypocritical standpoint.

    Abby's stuff is "more grounded" despite happening in 3 DAYS than Joel's which had to have taken AT LEAST 3 MONTHS if not 6 months. Is nonsense ... there is no way to make that argument. It is like saying TLJ has a "more reasonable" story than ESB when it comes to Star Wars.
    The sequel nails the world the first game gets the character development trophy. They both excel at different things. I'd rewrite parts of both games. Not just one. They're both power fantasy but one at least tries to be a survival game. The sequel was a step in that direction. It took steps back in that department. Joel feels like a mary sue in his game but Abby and Ellie feel more grounded.

    Ill double check on the length of the games.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-09-02 at 01:05 AM.
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  17. #3337
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    The sequel nails the world the first game gets the character development trophy. They both excel at different things. I'd rewrite parts of both games. Not just one. They're both power fantasy but one at least tries to be a survival game. The sequel was a step in that direction. It took steps back in that department. Joel feels like a mary sue in his game but Abby and Ellie feel more grounded.

    Ill double check on the length of the games.
    You are correct that one tries to be a survival game, but you are wrong on which one it is. The sequel is a step backwards from survival. The first one built the world, the second one added two more factions they fleshed out.

    And you'll have to "double check" the length of time in the story? Seriously, there is no need if you "watched" them like you said. The bulk of TLoU2 takes place over 3 days, you have the opening and ending that take place at different times. While TLoU starts in the Fall of one year and ends in the Spring of another ... making it at least 3 months, but it is more likely six months.

    Joel is not remotely a Mary Sue, people do not like Joel right away ... things don't come easy to him. He isn't the best at everything. He literally has zero traits of a Mary Sue. I am so annoyed when people use "Mary Sue" wrong. TLoU goes in its story to build up why Joel is how he is and why he is good at what he does ... TLoU2 expects you to accept Abby is awesome at everything ... except being friends with Mel because Mel is dating Owen and Abby likes Owen. Abby is also not a Mary Sue, but if either character is a Mary Sue ... it would be Abby.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  18. #3338
    Do you think we will get DLC for this game? Or will Naughty dog switch focus on developing ps5 games?

    Seeing as they normally like to be at the peak of gaming and we're going into the next generation very soon
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  19. #3339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Do you think we will get DLC for this game? Or will Naughty dog switch focus on developing ps5 games?

    Seeing as they normally like to be at the peak of gaming and we're going into the next generation very soon
    Honestly, there isn't really a place for the DLC to go. At least post game, DLC is out.

    So my guess would be:
    1) Abby prequel storyline. Exploring her time with the fireflies and her relationship with her father. Perhaps broken up into two parts, before Joel's arrival and then journey to Seattle.
    2) Co-op multiplayer. Patrols in Jackson (vs Infected) and Patrols in Seattle (as WLF and/or Seraphites vs Infected or the opposing factions)
    3) Seraphites vs WLF multiplayer mode ... pretty much self explanatory.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  20. #3340
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    You are correct that one tries to be a survival game, but you are wrong on which one it is. The sequel is a step backwards from survival. The first one built the world, the second one added two more factions they fleshed out.

    And you'll have to "double check" the length of time in the story? Seriously, there is no need if you "watched" them like you said. The bulk of TLoU2 takes place over 3 days, you have the opening and ending that take place at different times. While TLoU starts in the Fall of one year and ends in the Spring of another ... making it at least 3 months, but it is more likely six months.

    Joel is not remotely a Mary Sue, people do not like Joel right away ... things don't come easy to him. He isn't the best at everything. He literally has zero traits of a Mary Sue. I am so annoyed when people use "Mary Sue" wrong. TLoU goes in its story to build up why Joel is how he is and why he is good at what he does ... TLoU2 expects you to accept Abby is awesome at everything ... except being friends with Mel because Mel is dating Owen and Abby likes Owen. Abby is also not a Mary Sue, but if either character is a Mary Sue ... it would be Abby.
    What is Joel bad at? After the time skip? People don't like him but respect Joel which is basically the something. Rey has enemies despite people calling her a mary sue.
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