Immigration Simplified

[Cthulhu 2020]

I think a discussion of whether the USA should even be trying to solve the problems of global poverty would be a worthwhile starting point.

We help contribute to curbing it, and I think it's worthwhile for people who want to contribute (aka charity), as well as disaster relief assistance, but beyond that I don't think federal aid is warranted save in very special circumstances.


I can't say I've seen anyone on "the left" argue that mass immigration is the solution to world poverty. This is the only guy I've seen on any talks or speeches who even claims this is a thing. Yeah, we're not going to make a single dent in world poverty by letting lots of people in. He's arguing against a strawman, something easily knocked over because... everyone knows it's true.

The thing is, we're willing to take in people who are WILLING TO WORK HARD to make a better life for themselves.

"We take in one million immigrants a year, that's nothing compared to LOOK AT ALL THESE GUMBALLS".

The point is that those 1 million people are leading better lives than they were, not because we're solving world poverty. He's pointing to the massive number of gumballs who get nothing out of the deal, meanwhile trying to say that 1 million people a year having better lives because they want to work is "nothing" because LOOK AT THESE GUMBALLS.

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Well he just did, so you are wrong.

You can't even answer the question of who "some people" are in the statement "some people say that immigration can end world poverty". Sad.

[Elegiac]

That would be the preferable thing, but it seems like the thing almost nobody wants to do.

Consumer economies are widely chastised for their ill effects, why people seem so eager to keep them going is beyond me.

Because they provide a massive net benefit to the vast majority of people involved, and there has been no better alternative model yet devised.

[NED funded]

There might be some specific issues in the USA, but generally for the first world countries the case is that factories leave them because the workers are cheaper in Mexico, and similar countries - even if the workers are less productive.

Yeah there wages drop, but usually that's a better outcome than flat out loosing their job. Those that can be retrained will be and those that can't can be more productive in the designated area and can on the long run wages could average. Granted this is all theoretical.

Kenan 2012 explores the idea more.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w18307

[Sunseeker]

Well he just did, so you are wrong.

Okay to be fair, he made an argument with gumballs. It was still a horrible argument. The fact that he used "real data" is besides the point because he conclusions are ridiculous.

[Elegiac]

I think a discussion of whether the USA should even be trying to solve the problems of global poverty would be a worthwhile starting point.

Given that more developed states are generally less belligerent, it's useful from an international security standpoint to try and end poverty. Or at least mitigate it.

[nanook12]

Well the general argument I hear for amnesty and open borders is that these people are "just looking for a better life."

Why are our current immigrants on welfare at higher rates than the native population if the goal is not compassion?

The tired argument to that is "you are wrong because illegals don't qualify for welfare." Luckily I do my research and have found out that the illegal birthrate is nearly twice that of native Americans. Illegals are coming into our country, taking jobs, lowering wages, and having a ton of kids on American soil so they can use them to gain welfare.

[NED funded]

Even if Immigration is a panacea for all economic woes and literally the BEST THING EVER! Its a short term solution to the crisis' since as has been noted by demographers, global fertility is plummeting. Even if Immigrants came with no social costs, no problems, or if we were all a nation of Tennisballs married to body pillows of Justin Trudeau, there is still the long term problem of WHERE you get immigrants as fewer and fewer countries have the surplus people for export.

Eventually we will be hoovering up populations from the most marginal, most remote, and likely must incapable of functioning in the modern world people. Soon only the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island will be left.

What then?

The idea is not to import immigrants but to allow labour to move between each country.

[Spectral]

We help contribute to curbing it, and I think it's worthwhile for people who want to contribute (aka charity), as well as disaster relief assistance, but beyond that I don't think federal aid is warranted save in very special circumstances.

I agree with this position. Americans (meaning individuals and organizations) should engage in charitable enterprises as well as commerce both as a means to improve lives abroad and as part of normal behavior. The United States (meaning the federal government) should help in circumstances where American resources are genuinely called for because it's the only feasible way to handle a situation (I'm thinking of situations where the Navy becomes relevant).

I can't say I've seen anyone on "the left" argue that mass immigration is the solution to world poverty.

This is mostly a libertarian argument, I think. In the USA, libertarians are mostly rightish on the political spectrum (or at least ally accordingly), so yeah, it's pretty silly to target "the left" for this argument.

[Theodarzna]

Because they provide a massive net benefit to the vast majority of people involved, and there has been no better alternative model yet devised.

When you can see yourself on the road to ruin, doesn't it at least give one cause to slow the fuck down before they go off the cliff? Why put the pedal to the medal?

[nanook12]

Okay to be fair, he made an argument with gumballs. It was still a horrible argument. The fact that he used "real data" is besides the point because he conclusions are ridiculous.

So much denialism.

[NED funded]

Well he just did, so you are wrong.

I mean it's horribly biased and very one sided.

[Endus]

It's kind of like finding out there's a natural disaster going on, threatening millions of people, and saying "eh, we can't save them all, just hundreds, so why even bother with those hundreds of people?"

It's an argument that lacks any sense of empathy or compassion whatsoever, by ignoring the gains to those you DO help.

[Theodarzna]

The idea is not to import immigrants but to allow labour to move between each country.

Which will necessitate either a World State since no country can exist like that as a sovereign country.

But even if it IS as you say, the main reason for imports seems to be shortfalls or a desire to "GROW FOREVER!" what do we do as the human population stops growing or even contracts?

[Sunseeker]

So much denialism.

Hmmmm....well considering the USA isn't trying to do anything this guy claims it is, I guess I am denying his claims.

[shimerra]

Well he just did, so you are wrong.

No he didn't simplify anything. He took a complex issue, made up a dog shit argument he felt he could beat, and then took a giant idiot level shit in video form and now you're gobbling it up like it's your favorite food.

[Justpassing]

It's kind of like finding out there's a natural disaster going on, threatening millions of people, and saying "eh, we can't save them all, just hundreds, so why even bother with those hundreds of people?"

It's an argument that lacks any sense of empathy or compassion whatsoever, by ignoring the gains to those you DO help.

"...and we should build a wall to keep those hundreds out if they manage to save themselves and come take errr jerbs"

[Cthulhu 2020]

When you can see yourself on the road to ruin, doesn't it at least give one cause to slow the fuck down before they go off the cliff? Why put the pedal to the medal?

This is assuming that at the end of the road lies ruin, when one hasn't even seen the final destination.

[Captain N]

This is assuming that at the end of the road lies ruin, when one hasn't even seen the final destination.

To be fair the road Theo mentions tends to only have one ending because any other road we take to avoid ruin as a whole is met with people screaming that we're heading towards Communism.

[Cthulhu 2020]

So much denialism.

We're still waiting for you to answer who "some people" are in "some people argue that immigration is the ultimate solution to ending world poverty".

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To be fair the road Theo mentions tends to only have one ending because any other road we take to avoid ruin as a whole is met with people screaming that we're heading towards Communism.

True enough...

[nanook12]

It's kind of like finding out there's a natural disaster going on, threatening millions of people, and saying "eh, we can't save them all, just hundreds, so why even bother with those hundreds of people?"

It's an argument that lacks any sense of empathy or compassion whatsoever, by ignoring the gains to those you DO help.

Except for everyone single one we invite to our country it takes up that much more in resources for actual Americans.