Sin or Sub

[shaunika123]

How about you stick to your DK? Better in both PvE and PvP.

But if you must, I would go for Assassi Rogue.

no iT really isnt
rogue is one of the best melee classes in the game atm, only really contended by enha and ret

for pve ofc

of course all melee sucks balls atm compared to ranged, but among melee rogue is great

[ehxy]

I'm not ignorant when every single log shows that assination is the top dps spec for every mythic fight arm. Also subs best lege got nerfed while assination got nothing but buffs

As I said if you want to dominate there is no reason currently to go sub until nighthold . That being said I stand by I hate assination and will never play it and it is my hope that sub will eventually be ahead of it.

What the hell are you talking about?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...e=7&dataset=80

It's like you don't even know how to warcraftlog

[Tyrarolls]

warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#

wat

can't tell if trolling or haven't looked at logs for a month.

cant tell if you are trolling aswell...

or what do you want to show with this beaufitul statistic?

[lobocito]

To return to the OP's point if your just looking for a fun alt and are determined to play rogue, sub and outlaw are a blast to play and are very rewarding. Sin is pretty easy to top the meters with though and is definitely the easiest to gear for and succeed.

[guurb]

Outlaw is Lotery spec

Sin is Autism spec

Sub is a decent spec

[Deleted]

Tbh what ppl easy forget is that in a blink of a devs eye the scaling and balance can turn upside down. Just look at the murder of outlaw in early EN, how sub boots get nerfed energy regen by 50% in 7.15 and sin boots is left untouched.

Some factors can be predicted ofc but atm sin scaling with so big part of the dmg % based (high vendetta uptime and MP/Ap build with less crit dependence) and secondary stats value (where sub gain a lot) is nerfed I would say sub sin in high end gear is rather close. The 2 set bonus of sin also inc the value of wep dmg where sub been far ahead.

I would say play what you prefere but in legion I have to say play what you got Legendarys for.

Until, they tier base the Legendarys ( so you can change spec and gear effect change) you kinda stuck with the spec you get the best Legendarys for.

[kilua]

How about you stick to your DK? Better in both PvE and PvP.

But if you must, I would go for Assassi Rogue.

lol true dat xD

[Deleted]

Sub is not better then assination show me a single fight where sub is the top parse it doesn't exist by that token sin is the best spec assuming you want to do top dmg

Give Jr maybe a year for like 970 gesr and maybe sub will be ahead

just go to warcraftlogs and look at the guarm/odyn mythic kills.
there are "only" about 50 parses for sub and 400-500 for assa , but sub is a little bit higher. roughly 15k more dps. But you can be sure the top parses are mostly done with the sin boots

[Halobob87]

Where did you see those nerfs man?

I'm talking about PvE man. Sub got a decently big nerf (imho for no reason)-

[Eazy]

warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#

wat

can't tell if trolling or haven't looked at logs for a month.

These statistics are... just statistics:

EN:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#class=Rogue

TOV:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#class=Rogue

[iky43210]

I've heard there are more cleave/aoe fights in nighthold, in which case sub/outlaw would start to get better.

[elcapone]

Where did you see those nerfs man? Shadow nova gets better implementation + more damage Akaari gets a reduced CD artifact spell gets a 1000% buff to 2000% weapon damage (calculate this with 900+ weapons) gloomblade gets a massive buff that could just about make it viable to pvp with. Oh ok boots are getting a 5 energy nerf. Nothing serious by a long shot.

Sin on the other hand loses both its survival options (feint at 35 energy up from 20 and cheat death on a 6 min CD?).

Talking mostly from a pvp perspective but I can't see sin doing very well post 7.1.5. It will still be good or even better for pve but at 35+ traits with proper gear sub is a monster and for me at least extremely more fun than the slow juggling rotation of sin.

Personal taste anyway but don't come out saying "they nerfed sub" when its clearly not the case.

- - - Updated - - -



Your info is based on assumptions. Let me explain why:

"Sub is not better show me parses". Obviously good players preferring sin over sub will not have sub parses to show. So you are basically bashing a spec with no stats whether its good or bad. Noone plays it because the fotm was sin so no real evidence exists what the spec can do.

I will agree sub takes longer to shine. You just cant wear your 850 gear and expect to be good with sub that much is true. Also you need the boots to make the spec flow. However at 35+ and 880+ sub in the right hands can make people cry.

Nevertheless since this is about the time that people reach 35+ and since up to now people have been investing on sin because thats what everyone was on about, there is not enough specimens to show that a proper sub rogue can kick the ass of a sin rogue.

That being said those who invested in sub know that its good, the rest who havent invested call it bad.

Obviously calling sub bad when you have only 20 traits in it doesn't mean it is bad.

Sub is extremely volatile without boots. Its a headache that I don't think is worth it. one mistake, such as not refreshing SD at 10.5 and NB at 5.5 for pandemic are huge dps losses. Thats not including messing up mechanics.

[Abalon]

I was looking at individual fights on emerald nightmare and only had 1 number one parses that being said assination is probaly ahead since everyone plays it which makes sense now that I look at charting

[Wow]

just go to warcraftlogs and look at the guarm/odyn mythic kills.
there are "only" about 50 parses for sub and 400-500 for assa , but sub is a little bit higher. roughly 15k more dps. But you can be sure the top parses are mostly done with the sin boots

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...58&class=Rogue

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...62&class=Rogue

Not seeing it.

I think what a lot of this comes down to is some swapped to sub because they have been hearing sub is the way ahead with 880+ and boots all exp and people wanting to justify their choice. That's not saying it's a bad choice or horrible spec (like outlaw is lol) it's fine it's just not this thing it's been built up to be ( way ahead scaling monster) all this time and is way to dependent on the boots. In addition to this 7.1.5 isn't helping things with the sub nerfs.

[Elerubard]

Sub is extremely volatile without boots. Its a headache that I don't think is worth it. one mistake, such as not refreshing SD at 10.5 and NB at 5.5 for pandemic are huge dps losses. Thats not including messing up mechanics.

So it's like unholy in that it's high maintenance; only sub actually has good numbers if done right?

[lolpve]

Sub is fine, most rogues just regurgitate whatever the fotm opinion is without knowing any facts. The specs are a lot closer in reality than these autists make out.

[Blayke]

You stay on the boss. Your RL should understand the nuances of the spec and that its unwise for you to try to switch to adds.

Unfortunately a lot of RL's seem to use all their dps in the same way and insist that they move en masse from boss to adds. It's a pita sometimes, but usually their is nothing to be gained from arguing with the RL.

[Volcanicstrad37]

Unfortunately a lot of RL's seem to use all their dps in the same way and insist that they move en masse from boss to adds. It's a pita sometimes, but usually their is nothing to be gained from arguing with the RL.

Raid leaders aren't dictators. If your class/spec performs optimally in a way your raid leader doesn't know, tell them. When I was raiding BLackrock on my rogue in WoD, the furnace fight, if cleave was a little low, i went combat, if not I was sin. Then, we were having trouble with downing the add after dropping shield, and I went sub (I believe) and we downed it because of alternating cooldowns for burst. This was all because we talked to the RL about what specs will perform optimally in different situations.

To the OP, you must be my twin, maining a DK right now and am leveling my rogue again, and came to the forums here to see how people are feeling about rogue, seeing as it is another melee dps class. Frost hits very hard, but lacks nuance for rotation.

[SSJones]

What the hell are you talking about?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...e=7&dataset=80

It's like you don't even know how to warcraftlog

One thing to remember here, is that Sub benefits more than Sin/Outlaw from fight length. As the tier grows older, and all DPS on the raid improves, sub's numbers will look better. If the fight is short enough that it nearly never runs out of shadow dances, I think it has the best 1-2 minute burst out of our specs, especially if you have the wrists or boots.

The problem is that it falls off hard at that point unless you have the boots. Sin and Outlaw both stay more consistent across a longer fight. Well, assuming average/decent rolls for Outlaw.

I'd also point out there are only 2k sub parses on that list, to 30k parses as Sin, and 4k Outlaw. I'd be curious as to how many of those sub players are still playing it because they have wrists or boots.

[ehxy]

One thing to remember here, is that Sub benefits more than Sin/Outlaw from fight length. As the tier grows older, and all DPS on the raid improves, sub's numbers will look better. If the fight is short enough that it nearly never runs out of shadow dances, I think it has the best 1-2 minute burst out of our specs, especially if you have the wrists or boots.

The problem is that it falls off hard at that point unless you have the boots. Sin and Outlaw both stay more consistent across a longer fight. Well, assuming average/decent rolls for Outlaw.

I'd also point out there are only 2k sub parses on that list, to 30k parses as Sin, and 4k Outlaw. I'd be curious as to how many of those sub players are still playing it because they have wrists or boots.

I've seen sub keep up on 5 minute fights against my shaman who has BiS and is 884 so I don't doubt their power.

To be honest at that point if they are keeping up that well you can't go wrong with either spec because both specs perform very well so the question is a moot point to me. Go with the spec you prefer the gameplay of they are both very good specs.