[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[mber341]

Is this about Star Wars or forum wars??

[s_bushido]

your reply brings zero positive value to the conversation.

...the "conversation" has already been had. Three years ago.

[Frogguh]

So to wrap it up - anybody (of the people who agree with me) got any coherent thoughts on why TLJ is such a terrible movie?

So there's two ways of interpreting the question. If you are talking about The Last Jedi as a terrible movie in context of being a bad WORK, then it's really not. An example of a movie that is a disjointed pile of crap would be Rise of Skywalker. No matter if you liked RoS or not, it was a terrible movie because it was made terribly.

Now if you are talking about TLJ being a bad STAR WARS movie, then yes it was absolutely horrible, both in terms of advancing the story started with A New Hope and also as an entry into a franchise that Disney is wanting to be popular and make lots of money. Rian Johnson could have probably made a stand-alone movie or trilogy that would be quite excellent so long as it hadn't been part of the Skywalker saga, but he butchered it.

The problem is context of the fandom. Since RotJ, there have been countless books expanding upon the Star Wars canon. Ignoring Old Republic era stuff, the most die-hard Star Wars fans who were following the books were presented with a Luke Skywalker who, although he certainly went through some very difficult trials on a level with what happened to him in TLJ, never abandoned his friends to death. He made poor decisions, he occasionally snapped and went dark side, but none of it broke him because he was strong. TLJ ignored the decades of canon about Luke Skywalker and turned him into this trash hermit loser who had to get lectured by Rey to find his moral compass again. And did he get a death worthy of his legacy? Nope, no battle. He kills himself using the Force. How many of the biggest Star Wars fans wanted to see that, and how predictable was it that this death would be outrageous? Hollywood seems to think that "subverting expectation" is always a good thing, but it is most definitely not. TLJ failed Luke and the biggest fans completely and predictably.

Admiral Ackbar deserves a mention here too. He was kind of a big deal in the Rebellion, rather prominent in the books that were canon for decades, and not one person even mentions his death in passing. Garbage treatment of a character that has one of the most quoted lines in movie history.

Rian Johnson thought he was somehow being original with Rey's lineage. He wanted to break the idea that you had to come from a major bloodline in order to have the Force, so he made her come from "nothing". Well that's fine, except it wasn't original. Obi-wan Kenobi, Qui-gon Jinn, Darth Maul, Sidious himself, Mace Windu, Yoda, and basically every single Force user in the prequel trilogy came from "nothing". Were we supposed to somehow be impressed that Rey wasn't a Skywalker or Palpatine or Kenobi? Of course not. The big reveal was a big yawn that did nothing except kill the speculation of how Rey was so strong - and that definitely deserves a mention. Anakin Skywalker himself, in canon the potentially strongest Force user in history, would not have been able to accomplish the feats that Rey did with similar level of training. I get that Star Wars is horribly inconsistent with the amount of training it takes to do things, but Rey literally had ZERO training except a couple grouchy speeches by Luke, and she could lift the side of a mountain with the Force because the plot required it. That's not something that is consistent with the training/ability ratio we see in either trilogy, and it is given no valid explanation.

Finn's entire arc in the movie accomplishes nothing except getting most of the Resistance killed, not to mention Luke himself dying to save the survivors. Despite having the most compelling story of the three new characters, Finn is unfortunately relegated to mostly being comic relief, the new C3PO or Jar-Jar Binks of the trilogy. They would have done a lot better making Poe the comic relief and let Finn be a serious character.

Poe, though, deserves a book all his own on being a garbage character. He destroys the entire Resistance bomber fleet disobeying orders, he throws tantrums that he got punished for it, he engineers a mutiny because his own actions led to him being locked out of command decisions - this despite KNOWING that Holdo is a very accomplished strategist and not the suicidal type - and he gets most of the Resistance killed along with Finn's traitorous hacker. Does he get executed for treason? Does he at least get cast out of the Resistance? No, he's held up as a freaking role model learning to find his way! If Disney wants us to like their new characters, then Johnson should have been fired for ruining two of the three. Who outside of the First Order would like Poe? He's their greatest asset!

Non-Sith antagonist Snoke set up as the big bad? Johnson killed him as quickly as possible, in as lame a fashion as possible, leaving us with no answers on anything. Now, had Johnson presented Kylo Ren like he was shown in Rise of Skywalker, a competent and controlled killing machine, then it would have been at least somewhat believable to let him take the reins of the First Order, but Kylo was still in tantrum mode and not shown to be any more skilled than Rey despite being trained by both Luke and Snoke. Kylo's character was not advanced at all in this movie.

Then there are the peripheral issues, such as Super Leia, the fact that the movie is nothing but a chase scene, the fact that Luke's reunion with his friends was not even a small deal, the extremely problematic Holdo maneuver, the unceremonious death of fan-favorite Phasma, the awful throne room fight with its disappearing daggers, oh and did I mention that the biggest Star Wars fans never got to see a full-power Luke Skywalker throw down?

It's been a long time since I watched the movie, so there is probably a lot more that I missed in this post. But as an entry in a franchise meant to advance the Skywalker saga in context of everything that used to be canon for the biggest fans, The Last Jedi was a heaping pile of bantha poodoo.

[RampageBW1]

Maybe you should let go of replying to posts you didn't understand and where your reply brings zero positive value to the conversation.

His reply is completely sensible.

The post he responded to could best be summarized by, "I keep trying convince myself that I hate this movie because I can't think of why I hate it."

Ever stop to consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, the reason you hate it is because mostly everyone else hates it? And maybe THAT'S the reason why you can't come up with reasons why you hate it?

[Shadowferal]

[Katchii]

Soooo there's been this other thread about Star Wars that got me thinking:

I hated the Last Jedi on so many levels that I can't even wrap my head around it, don't know where to start. The topic comes up every few months in my friends' group and there's two guys who like it "except those bogus moments like flying Leya" and I never know what to say because honestly flying Leya is the least of my concern in the entire movie.

So to wrap it up - anybody (of the people who agree with me) got any coherent thoughts on why TLJ is such a terrible movie?

And please, reserve your potential comments in the lines of "it's just a movie, let it go". I know it's just a movie, I'm just asking for the sake of being able to make a compelling argument to my friends instead of having such a strong opinion without being able to back it up with any coherent thoughts.

Thanks

I only ever saw it once, on opening night, so can't really give specific details about it. But the overarching feeling I got as I walked out was that it straight up didn't feel like a Star Wars movie, at all. It felt like someone tried to make Guardians of the Galaxy, threw in some lightsabers and the Force, and tried calling it a day, without actually trying to tell a good story with a good narrative and flow etc... They focused on visuals, jokes and rule of cool, and not much else whereas in other Star Wars movies the story was much better conveyed IMO, almost spoon fed to you so there wasn't really any room for interpretation.

It may not be a bad movie overall, but IMO it was a bad Star Wars movie.

[eschatological]

-snip-

This post is what's wrong with Star Wars currently. All of the stuff you talk about in re: Luke's character, Ackbar, etc, was made non-canon when Disney bought Star Wars. Hell, most of it was never canon to begin with. Lucas, in his usual irresponsible way, didn't have a "Universe Bible" saying what was canon or not, he just said to other creators, "Yeah, do what you want with it, just don't consider it official." But then less-peripheral/out there properties (like some of the games) would be considered hard canon without any indication they ever were. Most Star Wars fans have, at best, seen 6 movies and maybe played one of the video games. The idea that the movies should cater to the folks who read hundreds of books is not only irrational, but unfeasible as those books all contradict each other and are not only not cohesive, they're incoherent. So Disney did the only reasonable thing - declare it all non-canon, and then slowly bring in things they wanted to consider canon into the fold.

Luke being an utterly broken, and hermit-like character after his "moment of doubt and shame" in the allegorical Garden of Gethsemane that was Ben Solo's sleeping quarters is fine. It lines up with his hotheaded, impetuous nature in the original films, and his emotional outbursts. It echoes how alone he feels being "The Last Jedi." It echoes that he never really did any substantial training in Empire, and left even though Yoda said his training was incomplete (which was rather poorly handwaved in RotJ, imo), and that he was literally trying to figure this Jedi thing out on his own, alone, post RotJ. Perhaps it doesn't echo the books - who fucking cares? Ackbar? Ackbar is literally a meme for most person, known for saying ONE line in the OT. TLJ was a well-made movie, with, imo, interesting character arcs, a poignant theme about heroes and myths and how none of that matters (when it is precisely the method by which Luke saves the Rebellion at the end by literally Force Projecting himself across the universe), and showing how The Force pushes people even against what they might hold to be true. And Luke's death exactly serves the purpose of that theme - he literally throws his entire life force into creating an image which will distract and destroy Kylo Ren's efficacy in eradicating the Rebellion. There are obvious weak points, of course. I feel like the Rose character is poorly developed and....not quite necessary, and a bit contradictory at the end. The whole casino side plot is pointless and a bit boring, and even if I concede that it being pointless was kind of "the point," it was very filler-y. The rest, I think, makes it an above average Star Wars film. In fact, I consider it one of my favorites.

What's weirdest to me is this subset of people who like the prequels and hate the sequels. The prequels were objectively bad movies, with poor directing, writing, and in many instances, acting. Even the narrative/story (which some of these people claim is good) is nonsensical and stretches belief. And yet no on ever seems to blast the prequels for not following the 90s book canon, which it didn't.

[Jotaux]

What's weirdest to me is this subset of people who like the prequels and hate the sequels. The prequels were objectively bad movies, with poor directing, writing, and in many instances, acting. Even the narrative/story (which some of these people claim is good) is nonsensical and stretches belief. And yet no on ever seems to blast the prequels for not following the 90s book canon, which it didn't.

Its more the sequels are so bad they make the prequels look good. I actually enjoyed TFA but TLJ was so concerned with subverting expectations they forgot to make a watchable movie. I laugh when people say its a good movie just not a good star wars movie as some sort of compromise. A good movie would have just scrapped the entire casino planet storyline. It was there just to say "look our minorities are doing something!" without having them do anything. It feels like the whole point was to show how incompetent the minorities are. It's hilarious to me that its praised for diversity when the only characters that matter are Rei and Kylo.

[eschatological]

Its more the sequels are so bad they make the prequels look good. I actually enjoyed TFA but TLJ was so concerned with subverting expectations they forgot to make a watchable movie. I laugh when people say its a good movie just not a good star wars movie as some sort of compromise. A good movie would have just scrapped the entire casino planet storyline. It was there just to say "look our minorities are doing something!" without having them do anything. It feels like the whole point was to show how incompetent the minorities are. It's hilarious to me that its praised for diversity when the only characters that matter are Rei and Kylo.

ROFLMAO at this categorization.

The Casino plotline served two narrative purposes: to make grey the morality of the Star Wars universe (the rich arms dealers are getting rich by selling to both sides of the war), and, more importantly, to show Poe's rashness and how his lack of leadership led to Holdo's plan ultimately failing. In fact, that failure on Poe's part is two-fold: reinforcing the reckless, wanton waste of resources and potentially lives inherent to "hot dogging heroics," by sending the mission out unauthorized in the first place (echoing his earlier death run at the beginning of the movie), and then quite literally by having poor operational security by LITERALLY TELLING THE PLAN OVER COMMS WHEN HE KNEW AN UNKNOWN PERSON (the hacker) WAS IN EARSHOT.

Ultimately, yes, the casino plot is pointless. It wasn't due to the incompetence of the people doing it - they did their best and came out with what they thought was a salvageable solution. It was due to the incompetence of a supposed leader who relied only on his misguided ideas of heroic action. Which, btw, is echoing the main theme of Luke/Rey, where Luke acknowledges how grey things are, and how heroic action etc is all myth and legend and of no real purpose.

To me, that's pretty adept film-making.

And yes, it's more nuanced than any Star Wars film before it. But considering the whole lead-up to TLJ was this rampant speculation of The Grey Jedi making an appearance (and that being functionally what Rey turns out to be in this movie, and totally dismantled in RoS), I don't see why it was a bad thing to be more nuanced. Hell, ESB was similarly more nuanced than ANH by pitting Luke against his own self, his literal father, absconding his training for his emotional connections to his friends, and then the themes of betrayal, both by Han (betrayed by Lando) and Luke (betrayed by Obi Wan who didn't tell him about Vader), and so forth.

There is no way you can look at TLJ, imo, and say it is objectively worse than any of the prequel movies. It has A) better direction, B) better dialogue, C) better acting, and D) story is, at worst, a push (I happen to like the narrative themes and mirroring of TLJ, and think it is much better than anything the prequels did). Just because you didn't like the narrative end results of the story doesn't make this a bad movie.

[Shadowferal]

The casino side plot did nothing but waste time, a futile attempt to distract you the viewer from realizing that most of the movie is nothing more than a incredibly boring slow motion chase scene.
Nothing nuanced here beyond the fact that you paid in time and/or money to watch this.

[qwerty123456]

ROFLMAO at this categorization.

The Casino plotline served two narrative purposes: to make grey the morality of the Star Wars universe (the rich arms dealers are getting rich by selling to both sides of the war), and, more importantly, to show Poe's rashness and how his lack of leadership led to Holdo's plan ultimately failing. In fact, that failure on Poe's part is two-fold: reinforcing the reckless, wanton waste of resources and potentially lives inherent to "hot dogging heroics," by sending the mission out unauthorized in the first place (echoing his earlier death run at the beginning of the movie), and then quite literally by having poor operational security by LITERALLY TELLING THE PLAN OVER COMMS WHEN HE KNEW AN UNKNOWN PERSON (the hacker) WAS IN EARSHOT.

Ultimately, yes, the casino plot is pointless. It wasn't due to the incompetence of the people doing it - they did their best and came out with what they thought was a salvageable solution. It was due to the incompetence of a supposed leader who relied only on his misguided ideas of heroic action. Which, btw, is echoing the main theme of Luke/Rey, where Luke acknowledges how grey things are, and how heroic action etc is all myth and legend and of no real purpose.

To me, that's pretty adept film-making.

And yes, it's more nuanced than any Star Wars film before it. But considering the whole lead-up to TLJ was this rampant speculation of The Grey Jedi making an appearance (and that being functionally what Rey turns out to be in this movie, and totally dismantled in RoS), I don't see why it was a bad thing to be more nuanced. Hell, ESB was similarly more nuanced than ANH by pitting Luke against his own self, his literal father, absconding his training for his emotional connections to his friends, and then the themes of betrayal, both by Han (betrayed by Lando) and Luke (betrayed by Obi Wan who didn't tell him about Vader), and so forth.

There is no way you can look at TLJ, imo, and say it is objectively worse than any of the prequel movies. It has A) better direction, B) better dialogue, C) better acting, and D) story is, at worst, a push (I happen to like the narrative themes and mirroring of TLJ, and think it is much better than anything the prequels did). Just because you didn't like the narrative end results of the story doesn't make this a bad movie.

Imo the Last Jedi is the best of the sequels but I don't think you can say it has better acting than the prequels. Cinema evolves. Thats like saying Seth Rogan is a better actor than Buster Keaton. And story is definitely worse as Lucas was trying to fill out his universe while Johnson was trying to take the garbage JJ left him and create a movie that still left room for a third. It really wasn't Rians fault as 99% of the resistance and the entire galactic government were wiped out in the first film and there is no way he could just end the trilogy in the second film so he was stuck with what he could do.

Why did Holdo wait till nearly everyone was already dead? Why didn't they just put a bunch of people willing to die on 5-10 ships and have them suicide pact at the same time so everyone else could survive? She waited until nearly everyone was dead and then moments later Rose shits on her sacrifice by saving Finn when he could have saved everyone. There's several dumb things like that in the Last Jedi but atleast it doesn't ruin the entire series like The Rise of Skywalker by having Palatine transfer his essence into a clone the moment Vader tosses him down the shaft and then continues to build a massive evil empire seconds after. There was no bringing balance to the force it wasn't even 10 minutes of balance let alone 30 years and turns Vader from a tragic villain/child of prophecy who completes his destiny into a villain who chooses family over the guy would was going to replace him with his son.

[s_bushido]

A good movie would have just scrapped the entire casino planet storyline. It was there just to say "look our minorities are doing something!" without having them do anything. It feels like the whole point was to show how incompetent the minorities are. It's hilarious to me that its praised for diversity when the only characters that matter are Rei and Kylo.

Holy shit. It feels like I'm back in 2016 all over again. I wish you people had learned back then that characters being straight white men wouldn't magically elevate weak plots or scenes to something worthwhile. The problems with the casino scene had absolutely nothing to do with the color of the skin of any of the people involved. Christ.

[Heathy]

is it just me or does anyone else think that the writing in the movies pales in comparison to the writing in the kotor games? why can't we get a kotor trilogy. kotor 2 had two of the best female leads smh. since the mandalorian came out I went back and watched a guys introspection video here not only as a star wars refresher but to also save me from playing those ancient games. it bugs me that they have much more interesting storylines and characters. maybe one day we'll actually get a star wars movie that has good writing. when it comes to TLJ i dunno watch the video I linked, star wars can be so much better if it has decent writers. for me I don't really know what would progress this story. the original trilogy seemed to be intentionally vague, the pre-quels and kotor came out roughly the same time, one of them ended up being meme'd into oblivion. for me I just don't know what would move this forward or if it can be moved forward. there just hasn't been much of an interesting or thought provoking movie storyline, everyone knew that anakin was ultimately going to become evil at the end. the new movies just lack context in a lot of cases, there probably just shouldn't have been more movies set after the original trilogy. they almost touched on topics from kotor in the new trilogy the good bits of the new trilogy, but never really took it anywhere.

[Ophenia]

Why did Holdo wait till nearly everyone was already dead? Why didn't they just put a bunch of people willing to die on 5-10 ships and have them suicide pact at the same time so everyone else could survive?

Why did she suicide at all ? I mean, it's Star Wars, you can't tell me there isn't any AutoPilot option available, or at the worst case, one fcking droid able to proceed with this hyperspeed ramming ?

This suicide was entirely useless. I think Rose "saved" this by doing something even more counterproductive a few minutes later, so the Holdo scene was like "yeah, could be worse", which it was thanks to Rose. "You don't save people by sacrificing yourself"-line after Holdo and her own sister actually saved people by sacrificing themselves, while her heroic act technically just killed everyone (if not for plot holes and deus ex machinas). Even Rose and Finn should be dead as they were injured, a few km away from the base, 20m in front of Kylo's army. No idea how they made it back to the base.

[qwerty123456]

Why did she suicide at all ? I mean, it's Star Wars, you can't tell me there isn't any AutoPilot option available, or at the worst case, one fcking droid able to proceed with this hyperspeed ramming ?

This suicide was entirely useless. I think Rose "saved" this by doing something even more counterproductive a few minutes later, so the Holdo scene was like "yeah, could be worse", which it was thanks to Rose. "You don't save people by sacrificing yourself"-line after Holdo and her own sister actually saved people by sacrificing themselves, while her heroic act technically just killed everyone (if not for plot holes and deus ex machinas). Even Rose and Finn should be dead as they were injured, a few km away from the base, 20m in front of Kylo's army. No idea how they made it back to the base.

Well they are supposed to be the good guys so I don't think they would force a droid to suicide. But yeah I forgot about her sister which makes it even worse.