1. #1

    Outlaw gear questions

    Hey guys so I am confused. I see a lot of high ilvl outlaw rogues (891) running vers gems and enchants however with shadowcraft and amr they are suggesting I go mastery gems and enchants. Why are they suggesting I run mastery? I also am kinda sick of using RTB and want to go back to a SnD build however I know it isnt really viable till 7.1.5. I am just sick of sin and was looking for some help. could someone shed some light on some of these questions. here is a link to my armory.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Shinji/simple

  2. #2
    Deleted
    [QUOTE=shinji2009;43757598]Hey guys so I am confused. I see a lot of high ilvl outlaw rogues (891) running vers gems and enchants however with shadowcraft and amr they are suggesting I go mastery gems and enchants. Why are they suggesting I run mastery? I also am kinda sick of using RTB and want to go back to a SnD build however I know it isnt really viable till 7.1.5. I am just sick of sin and was looking for some help. could someone shed some light on some of these questions. here is a link to my armory.

    [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen

    [QUOTE=shinji2009;43757598]Hey guys so I am confused. I see a lot of high ilvl outlaw rogues (891) running vers gems and enchants however with shadowcraft and amr they are suggesting I go mastery gems and enchants. Why are they suggesting I run mastery? I also am kinda sick of using RTB and want to go back to a SnD build however I know it isnt really viable till 7.1.5. I am just sick of sin and was looking for some help. could someone shed some light on some of these questions. here is a link to my armory.

    [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen

    Your stat weights change dynamically to your item lvl and gear. So you cant really compare your rogue with a 891 rogue. Besides i wouldnt give a damn on these stats weights from AMR. From my personal sxperience and a legendary parsingg rogue there are two approved gearing strategies you can use as Outlaw especially on that item lvl.

    First one: 35% Crrit, 16.67%, and then you stack vers. -> This strategy should always work and i have really good experience with this one.

    Second one: 40% Crit+, 11%Haste, 35-40%mastery and then you stack vers. -> This one more or less depends on your trinkets and proccs etc. You would have a better max dmg output but a lower average dmg.

    You could also use SimC to check what values it gives you. But my rogue is on 871 and i am doing quite fine with 35% Crit and 16% Haste.

    SnD is not competitive at all. I can understand RtB might be annoying sometimes but it also can be a lot of fun if you get the rolls you need.

  3. #3
    High Overlord
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    Use Simluationcraft to find your stat weights.

    Right now at 885, I have vers > haste > crit > mastery.
    With these current stats:

    Crit 34.08%
    Haste 14.66%
    Mastery 46.30%
    Versatility 10.72%

  4. #4
    Sim your own charter with simcraft and stats weight enabled. Pre- imposted stat weight are not realistic for your own character.

  5. #5
    Most outlaw sims at 880 value vers > haste > crit > mastery. A lot of this is because it's very easy to get crit gear and your #s go through the roof so crit loses some relative value. Mastery is not supported by simcraft but is by AMR. I've received no satisfactory explanation as to why mastery is weighted so highly by AMR so I don't trust it. The advice is generally to load up on vers but good fucking luck finding vers gear in this game.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanatu View Post
    Most outlaw sims at 880 value vers > haste > crit > mastery. A lot of this is because it's very easy to get crit gear and your #s go through the roof so crit loses some relative value. Mastery is not supported by simcraft but is by AMR. I've received no satisfactory explanation as to why mastery is weighted so highly by AMR so I don't trust it. The advice is generally to load up on vers but good fucking luck finding vers gear in this game.
    Yea i usually use shadowcraft since its made for rogues but rven that is telling me to go mastery. I guess i will try to sim my toon i just feel intemadated by the whole system since i dont really know what i am doing.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by shinji2009 View Post
    Yea i usually use shadowcraft since its made for rogues but rven that is telling me to go mastery. I guess i will try to sim my toon i just feel intemadated by the whole system since i dont really know what i am doing.
    I'm pretty sure Outlaw is basically unsupported by shadowcraft.

  8. #8
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSJones View Post
    I'm pretty sure Outlaw is basically unsupported by shadowcraft.
    This is correct. Asked them yesterday and they confirmed.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SSJones View Post
    I'm pretty sure Outlaw is basically unsupported by shadowcraft.

    ok so simc is my new best friend then? any clue on a guide or a tut on how to use it? I am searching google and getting weird guides.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shinji2009 View Post
    ok so simc is my new best friend then? any clue on a guide or a tut on how to use it? I am searching google and getting weird guides.
    https://docs.google.com/document/u/1...g8uveUv4c/edit

    Skasch (not me) wrote a guide for how to use Simcraft. The only addition I'd make to it is to make sure to download a more recent (710-03) nightly build. I think the release build (710-02) is missing a bunch of changes for rogue tuning.

  11. #11
    Hey I'm from Ask Mr. Robot and wanted to follow up on a few things:

    Regarding stat weights:
    Outlaw actually benefits from balanced secondaries. But stat weights don't balance stats, by their nature. One stat gets a higher priority than the others. We're actually working on a new method to solve this, that advances beyond weights and can handle automatically balancing stats, ratios, etc.

    In the meantime, a few things to note about our current stat weight generation on AMR:

    1. We look at 1000s of data points over real gear sets, and take into account interactions between stats. We then use some statistical best-practices to find a best-fitting line, which turns into your stat weights. SimC looks at 2 data points for each stat, and each stat is done in isolation. That means the interactions aren't captured well. It also means that the data can jump around due to the limited number of data points. That's one of the reasons you'll see AMR and SimC coming up with different weights.

    2. Trinkets, legendaries and other items with procs can't be ranked with stat weights. Believe me, we've tried to get super clever in the past and convert procs to something weights can measure, etc. It wasn't good enough. So now, we rank all trinkets (and items with procs) direction from simulations. To do that, when you generate stat weights on our site, we ALSO run simulations for every single proc-item at various iLevels. We then bundle those results in with the stat weight report. So when you look at a ranked gear list, all of the procs get ranked directly from simulations.

    With 2 trinkets, 2 legendaries, and some set bonuses, nearly half of the items can't be ranked with stat weights. So this is important to consider.

    3. We also model real fights (more coming soon). Ursoc (single target) and mythic+ (good for AoE). This lets you get stat weights for different types of fights and switch between them. It also makes it easy to verify the simulation reports, especially for ursoc, to compare it to a log on WCL.

    How to get stat weights on AMR:
    1. Go here: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run
    2. Load your character
    3. Change the 'sim type' on the right from 'single run' to 'gearing strategy'
    4. In the options that show up, set the min and max iLevel to 5 below and 5 above your current gear (or anything you want, but that's most popular)
    5. Click simulate

    There are more options, of course, since it's a super power user tool. If you want help with any of those, let me know.
    Ask Mr. Robot Human Minion

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Hey I'm from Ask Mr. Robot and wanted to follow up on a few things:

    Regarding stat weights:
    Outlaw actually benefits from balanced secondaries. But stat weights don't balance stats, by their nature. One stat gets a higher priority than the others. We're actually working on a new method to solve this, that advances beyond weights and can handle automatically balancing stats, ratios, etc.

    In the meantime, a few things to note about our current stat weight generation on AMR:

    1. We look at 1000s of data points over real gear sets, and take into account interactions between stats. We then use some statistical best-practices to find a best-fitting line, which turns into your stat weights. SimC looks at 2 data points for each stat, and each stat is done in isolation. That means the interactions aren't captured well. It also means that the data can jump around due to the limited number of data points. That's one of the reasons you'll see AMR and SimC coming up with different weights.

    2. Trinkets, legendaries and other items with procs can't be ranked with stat weights. Believe me, we've tried to get super clever in the past and convert procs to something weights can measure, etc. It wasn't good enough. So now, we rank all trinkets (and items with procs) direction from simulations. To do that, when you generate stat weights on our site, we ALSO run simulations for every single proc-item at various iLevels. We then bundle those results in with the stat weight report. So when you look at a ranked gear list, all of the procs get ranked directly from simulations.

    With 2 trinkets, 2 legendaries, and some set bonuses, nearly half of the items can't be ranked with stat weights. So this is important to consider.

    3. We also model real fights (more coming soon). Ursoc (single target) and mythic+ (good for AoE). This lets you get stat weights for different types of fights and switch between them. It also makes it easy to verify the simulation reports, especially for ursoc, to compare it to a log on WCL.

    How to get stat weights on AMR:
    1. Go here: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run
    2. Load your character
    3. Change the 'sim type' on the right from 'single run' to 'gearing strategy'
    4. In the options that show up, set the min and max iLevel to 5 below and 5 above your current gear (or anything you want, but that's most popular)
    5. Click simulate

    There are more options, of course, since it's a super power user tool. If you want help with any of those, let me know.
    I will have to check it out. I was just always confused with amr. at one point I had six feather fan and another trinket that as 20 ilvls higher and it said it was a worse trinket than six feather fan however after equipping it and reloading amr it then said six feather fan was WAY worse than the trinket I equipped. I also dont get why amr is saying mastery gems >> versa and at one point hidden saytr enchant was worse than mark of the trained soldier.

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