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  1. #1
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Francis Fukuyama: the Left abandoned its economic agenda in favor of identity poltics



    "The left is distracted on identity politics, economic inequality is just one small issue among many". "Obama is the symbol, heralded as monumental change but structurally nothing changed"

    These two IMHO hit the nail on the head. The Left, particularly in the US, is curiously too spread out ideologically in a never ending battle of the Progressive Stack, Whilst geographically clustered and cloistered in a handful of cities. How can the Left actually break out of this problem? I am not sure that it can considering its unwillingness to focus on economic issues (As those have the nasty habit of benefiting the dreaded Cishet White Man! among other villains) and it is hard to see these folks clawing their way out of the quagmire of identity, ethnic and gender politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  2. #2
    I don't disagree with the arguments as framed but to pin this as a problem of the entire left is reaching. It's not even a problem occurring only within the left. If you've ever heard of horseshoe theory in politics, this is a problem at either end of the shoe.

    Edit: Gonna go ahead and get Godwin in here early and say the left tip of the shoe is Stalin and the right tip is Hitler for reference.
    Last edited by D3thray; 2016-12-31 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #3
    I thought the issue was excessive focus on economy and neoliberalism while abandoning the rural identity.
    I also can't remember anytime in which "the left" wasn't fragmented.
    This is terribly confusing.

  4. #4
    That is half right. The Identity Politics "battle" is meant to cover for the fact that what remains of the left in the US sold out to Goldman Sachs, and when the battles got tough early on in the Obama presidency, democrats caved in to the banks at the expense of working and middle class Americans.

    The Trump election is simple: rather than have democrats deal with Exxon and Goldman Sachs through lobbyists, Trump has representatives of these companies directly in his administration. This cuts out the middle man and is far more efficient.

  5. #5
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    I don't disagree with the arguments as framed but to pin this as a problem of the entire left is reaching. It's not even a problem occurring only within the left. If you've ever heard of horseshoe theory in politics, this is a problem at either end of the shoe.

    Edit: Gonna go ahead and get Godwin in here early and say the left tip of the shoe is Stalin and the right tip is Hitler for reference.
    I wasn't talking about authoritarianism or not. This Horseshoe theory talk seems irrelevant to my discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  6. #6
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    I don't disagree with the arguments as framed but to pin this as a problem of the entire left is reaching. It's not even a problem occurring only within the left. If you've ever heard of horseshoe theory in politics, this is a problem at either end of the shoe.

    Edit: Gonna go ahead and get Godwin in here early and say the left tip of the shoe is Stalin and the right tip is Hitler for reference.
    that's not really godwining though.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    If this board has taught me anything, it's that identity politics are literally Hitler.
    I thought you said Trump was Hitler.

  8. #8
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    If this board has taught me anything, it's that identity politics are literally Hitler.
    there we go. now THAT'S godwining.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
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  9. #9
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    These two IMHO hit the nail on the head. The Left, particularly in the US, is curiously too spread out ideologically in a never ending battle of the Progressive Stack, Whilst geographically clustered and cloistered in a handful of cities.
    There is no "the Left". Even in the US alone, that label covers a huge range of independent groups, whose ideological views are pretty wildly different on most topics, with only some very vague shared principles. The idea that "the Left" is some homogenous hive mind is ridiculous as hell.

    That doesn't make it "too spread out ideologically", it means that your insistence that they're a single entity is wrong.

    Also, the "progressive stack" isn't really a "thing". It's a weird concept that basically only ever existed briefly in the Occupy movement, but for some reason, you folks think it's some kind of core left-wing concept, and it's not. It's a pretty damn silly idea.

    As for the identity v. economy nonsense, the Democratic platform in the 2016 election had a huge focus on economic issues; https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

    Just going by section titles, the first three major sections are entirely about economics. It wasn't "abandoned" in favor of "identity politics", it just didn't get media attention because there was nothing to get angry about, unlike racists who get enraged by "identity politics".

    And I'm going to keep putting "identity politics" in quotes, because the reality is that it basically boils down to "we respect civil rights of all people and think prejudice and hatred over variety is wrong". Which isn't really something you can take issue with, which is why you want a convenient label to use.


  10. #10
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    I thought you said Trump was Hitler.


    Trump isn't really Hitler, or Roosevelt. Trump is a sign that the bell tolls and the elite have failed and will keep failing. The issue though is that IMHO Trump isn't going to be much different other than he is a disruptive molotov cocktail.

    Peter Thiel, the Silicon Valley billionaire who put his head above the parapet to come out for Trump before election day and now looks likely to be rewarded with his own perch in government, said that a Trump presidency would be a reckoning with reality. If only that were true, then reality might have a better chance of fighting back. Instead, it seems far more likely to conceal what is going on with yet another layer of bluster and confusion. The heart of Thiel’s case for Trump was that the generation of Americans represented by the Clintons – the baby-boomers – had inflated one bubble after another in their desperate desire to avoid facing hard truths and continue their own soft existence. There hadn’t just been equity bubbles and housing bubbles: there were humanitarian bubbles and political correctness bubbles – anything to keep the wolf of how-things-really-are from the door. Yet the idea that Trump, who is from the same generation and has been as cosseted as anyone, offers something different is laughable. The Trump bubble is likely to be the biggest of all.
    (source)
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  11. #11
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There is no "the Left". Even in the US alone, that label covers a huge range of independent groups, whose ideological views are pretty wildly different on most topics, with only some very vague shared principles. The idea that "the Left" is some homogenous hive mind is ridiculous as hell.

    That doesn't make it "too spread out ideologically", it means that your insistence that they're a single entity is wrong.

    Also, the "progressive stack" isn't really a "thing". It's a weird concept that basically only ever existed briefly in the Occupy movement, but for some reason, you folks think it's some kind of core left-wing concept, and it's not. It's a pretty damn silly idea.

    As for the identity v. economy nonsense, the Democratic platform in the 2016 election had a huge focus on economic issues; https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

    Just going by section titles, the first three major sections are entirely about economics. It wasn't "abandoned" in favor of "identity politics", it just didn't get media attention because there was nothing to get angry about, unlike racists who get enraged by "identity politics".

    And I'm going to keep putting "identity politics" in quotes, because the reality is that it basically boils down to "we respect civil rights of all people and think prejudice and hatred over variety is wrong". Which isn't really something you can take issue with, which is why you want a convenient label to use.
    yeah the u.s. doesn't really have a left leaning party that can actually garner significant votes outside of the green party which never gets past 2% of the vote.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There is no "the Left". Even in the US alone, that label covers a huge range of independent groups, whose ideological views are pretty wildly different on most topics, with only some very vague shared principles. The idea that "the Left" is some homogenous hive mind is ridiculous as hell.

    That doesn't make it "too spread out ideologically", it means that your insistence that they're a single entity is wrong.

    Also, the "progressive stack" isn't really a "thing". It's a weird concept that basically only ever existed briefly in the Occupy movement, but for some reason, you folks think it's some kind of core left-wing concept, and it's not. It's a pretty damn silly idea.

    As for the identity v. economy nonsense, the Democratic platform in the 2016 election had a huge focus on economic issues; https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

    Just going by section titles, the first three major sections are entirely about economics. It wasn't "abandoned" in favor of "identity politics", it just didn't get media attention because there was nothing to get angry about, unlike racists who get enraged by "identity politics".

    And I'm going to keep putting "identity politics" in quotes, because the reality is that it basically boils down to "we respect civil rights of all people and think prejudice and hatred over variety is wrong". Which isn't really something you can take issue with, which is why you want a convenient label to use.
    How is there a "The alt-right" if there is no "the left"?

  13. #13
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    How is there a "The alt-right" if there is no "the left"?
    Because "alt-right" is a particularly self-identified grouping on the right. If I were to start talking about "the Right" as if they were all alt-righters the world over, I'd be making the same ridiculous error. That doesn't mean you can't identify groups and individuals by their own stated ideological views, just that you can't label half the political spectrum as if it is a hive mind that shares views homogenously.

    It's not that there isn't a left wing to the spectrum. It's that there is no homogeneity that lets you describe all that variety under one single label and pretend that they all share all the same views as whatever tiny subset you want to focus on does.


  14. #14
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    How is there a "The alt-right" if there is no "the left"?
    Because .... Reasons!
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because "alt-right" is a particularly self-identified grouping on the right. If I were to start talking about "the Right" as if they were all alt-righters the world over, I'd be making the same ridiculous error. That doesn't mean you can't identify groups and individuals by their own stated ideological views, just that you can't label half the political spectrum as if it is a hive mind that shares views homogenously.

    It's not that there isn't a left wing to the spectrum. It's that there is no homogeneity that lets you describe all that variety under one single label and pretend that they all share all the same views as whatever tiny subset you want to focus on does.
    Yeay, no. Nazis and KKK being on the lips of the populace says that no hive mind stuff is garbage.

    Remember, Trump is Hitler.

  16. #16
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Another bullshit thread about the 'left', I see.

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    Legendary! Collegeguy's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP5xavI0d_o&t=21m15s

    I recall Bernie making the same claims just with a different spin. Not a working class party any longer. Democrat party is just as influenced by wall street as republicans if not more so.

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    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Another bullshit thread about the 'left', I see.
    another empty post with no substance i see.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  19. #19
    This is exactly what the left should be concerned about- culture. Not work- or making money rather.

    The idea is to move to an eventual end to capitalism. The furthest spectrum of the left side of the political divide is communism.

  20. #20
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collegeguy View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP5xavI0d_o&t=21m15s

    I recall Bernie making the same claims just with a different spin. Not a working class party any longer. Democrat party is just as influenced by wall street as republicans if not more so.
    Atleast Bernie talked about the democrats instead of all left wing parties in the world.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    another empty post with no substance i see.
    Just as empty as the OP.

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