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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There is no "the Left". Even in the US alone, that label covers a huge range of independent groups, whose ideological views are pretty wildly different on most topics, with only some very vague shared principles. The idea that "the Left" is some homogenous hive mind is ridiculous as hell.
    Of course there is a left and a right. There are two VERY different and VERY incompatible methods of dealing with some issues that simply cannot be integrated permanently. For example, education. Should a private entity be in charge of education? Or should government do this? It is a VERY clear choice and you cannot permanently mix them. If you try to mix them, over time the government will take over all aspects of education because the government has infinite resources, will spend lots of money on it, which causes inflation in the industry, and will eventually make it financially impossible for a private entity to do it. So you don't have a mix, you actually have a transition to total government control that takes decades.

    The left very clearly believes in public education. The right believes in private education. And you cannot mix them. They are incompatible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    If an idea is good it will be universal.
    There are plenty of good ideas. Great ideas even. We don't need to invent new ones. We can solve most of our problems now with the slate of ideas we have. The reason they keep failing is because of corruption. When it comes time to apply those ideas, corrupt people take advantage of the system to get ahead. Corrupt politicians corrupt the system to benefit themselves. Citizens bend the rules to benefit themselves.

    That's what keeps leading humans back to a strong moral code. Some people say "Well a strong moral code is a bad thing because people should be allowed to do whatever they want it doesn't hurt anyone." But that attitude DOES hurt everyone. People are jerks and without a strong moral code they are even bigger jerks and eventually it breaks down the system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  2. #142
    The progressive left have become what they most despise, and it has been fascinating to watch them grapple with their contradictions and hypocrisies.

    Most if not all the moral progressives view themselves as societies elite. They sermon about societies ills that only they can judge. You will find them dominating the media and universities. They hold deep contempt for anyone not agreeing with their ideals. They label them with 'isms' or 'ists' to shame and silence. "racist", "climate denialist", "sexist".

    A few centuries ago you needed to be wealthy or royalty to be considered upper class. Now you just need to be a progressive leftie.

  3. #143
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    The other thing along these lines that I saw much hand-wringing and anger about was the reality that Trump won white women by 10 points. This margin was even larger among married white women. It turns out that white women don't tend to lump themselves into the category of oppressed people and aren't generally all that impressed with the message that not voting for Clinton made them gender traitors.

    Married women have higher incomes, so they're probably disinterested in a lot of the pro woman policies coming from democrats.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    There was a pre election Twitter beak down and statistics. Hillary overwhelmingly focuses on race while trump barely mentioned it.

    But you should keep doing what you are doing. I will enjoy watching the democrats fragment and become as irrelevant as the green party.
    Yeah right, see his twitter and every time he appeared on fox news.

    This is why the alt right is known for completely ignoring swathes of evidence if it means they can maintain party loyalty.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  5. #145
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Ok sure, i'll stop repeating myself, i'm wasting my time if you're not getting it.
    You're repeating yourself because your ability to articulate yourself is ass.

    Your first post was bashing the thread, and you expected people to interpret an inner meaning of "there is no left" within it.
    Last edited by THE Bigzoman; 2017-01-01 at 03:22 AM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Yeah right, see his twitter and every time he appeared on fox news.

    This is why the alt right is known for completely ignoring swathes of evidence if it means they can maintain party loyalty.
    See, like right here Endus. How is this different than saying "The Left is known for ignoring the working class"?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    that's not really godwining though.
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  8. #148
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    See, like right here Endus. How is this different than saying "The Left is known for ignoring the working class"?
    Because "the alt right" is a specific subgroup of right-wingers. If you said something about "communists" or "market socialists" or whatever, you could probably make an argument that applied broadly to that group. When you broaden it so widely to be just "the Left", you act like that's some hive mind that agrees on a whole broad range of topics that they really, fundamentally, don't. It's too broad a generalization to function.

    It doesn't mean you can't generalize about smaller, more ideologically-consistent groups, it's an issue with over-broadening it. If PosPosPos had said the same thing about "the Right", I'd have the same issue with that statement that I had with the earlier comments about "the Left".

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because "the alt right" is a specific subgroup of right-wingers. If you said something about "communists" or "market socialists" or whatever, you could probably make an argument that applied broadly to that group. When you broaden it so widely to be just "the Left", you act like that's some hive mind that agrees on a whole broad range of topics that they really, fundamentally, don't. It's too broad a generalization to function.

    It doesn't mean you can't generalize about smaller, more ideologically-consistent groups, it's an issue with over-broadening it. If PosPosPos had said the same thing about "the Right", I'd have the same issue with that statement that I had with the earlier comments about "the Left".
    Isn't there segmentation in that group as well and makes them immune to mass generalization? I truly think they aren't all white nationalists.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Of course there is a left and a right. There are two VERY different and VERY incompatible methods of dealing with some issues that simply cannot be integrated permanently.
    I think you missed his point: "the Left" and "the Right" are loose coalitions of people with varying ideologies and core issues. Just like everybody on the Right isn't a gun nut or an Evangelical Christian or a Pepe, everybody on the Left isn't a SJW or a hippie or in the PC police.

  11. #151
    Love live identity politics. I remember Christopher Hitchens once said that trying to unite atheists is like trying to herd cats. It's hard not to draw that very same parallel with the modern Left. I can think of few finer examples than the hijacking of OWS, the hijacking of a Bernie rally by BLM, and so forth.

  12. #152
    The main American Left party looks still awfully right wing to most of the world. Hell even our right wing parties are more left.

  13. #153
    Sounds almost as if Fukuyama recognizes that history kept right on trucking after all?

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    The Democratic party is not a "left" party.
    Hahahaha

    No but seriously, they may think themselves a 'soft' left, but left they are. It's like being a little bit pregnant

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It doesn't mean you can't generalize about smaller, more ideologically-consistent groups, it's an issue with over-broadening it. If PosPosPos had said the same thing about "the Right", I'd have the same issue with that statement that I had with the earlier comments about "the Left".
    Pretty much, there's a reason why I always say "far right" or "alt right", when referring to "mainstream" and "non-mainstream" republicans respectively.

    To Republicans, there's no difference between any of the sub-groups that oppose them, because they are contrarian and will always pick a stance that's ideologically more extreme and/or opposite to their counterparts, rather than based on merit or at least some metric that doesn't involve "lolololdemocrats".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Hahahaha

    No but seriously, they may think themselves a 'soft' left, but left they are. It's like being a little bit pregnant
    They are about as "left" or "soft left" as being central right, so it's like admitting you can't tell your left from your right hand.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2017-01-01 at 11:01 AM.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  16. #156
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Hahahaha

    No but seriously, they may think themselves a 'soft' left, but left they are. It's like being a little bit pregnant
    The Democrats on average aren't even 'soft' left.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The Democrats on average aren't even 'soft' left.
    Not that they can ever be as "right" as the Republicans, because the Republicans will just slip further into extremism even if the Democrats continue to push further right.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Ignoring things that don't matter frees us up so we can focus on universal ideas such as the individual, liberty, the economy. Identity is just a way for people to try to feel special without regard for their own merit.
    I'm glad you're the one who gets to decide that none of those things matter or are important to focus on. I'll be sure to let my girlfriend know that her experiences as a black woman in America or her family are invalid because you declared they don't matter or aren't important to address.

    Thank God you have the best solution to fix the race issues. Ignore it because it isn't an issue for you personally and it'll go away.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Wells your identity doesn't matter. What matters is your quantitative output. What do you offer to civilization? No serious person cares about your ethnicity, genitals, or other identity issues.
    In fantasy ideal world land. Then we come back to the real world you seem so unattached to where they've conducted studies where they send out thousands of resumes and found that with resumes that have too "black" of a name received call back rates at a hugely reduced rate, I forget the exact percentage. I do recall a study they did in Sweden about Muslim sounding names and the resumes that had too Muslimy names received a 50%-55% lower call back rate. And before you try and claim anything else the resumes were exactly the same with the singular difference being the name submitted. If people actually acted like the way you claim they did that'd be great. They don't an frequently even if they claim they do unconscious/societal conditioning still sculpts our behavior.

    And that to me is the real issue. Any acknowledgement that there might still be a lingering problem gets shouted down by people like you as "ra ra ra divises identity politics ra ra ra not everyone is like that, ra ra ra affirmative action is racist against white people!" and told to shut up and quit playing the race card.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2017-01-01 at 11:20 AM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    They are about as "left" or "soft left" as being central right, so it's like admitting you can't tell your left from your right hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The Democrats on average aren't even 'soft' left.
    Do you think it's possible your judgment might be just a little biased on this? "I'm from the left, everything I see looks balanced and fair, therefore I'm not really left but centrist. Everyone who disagrees with me must be far right".

    You might think your opinions are in the middle, but that is where everyone thinks they are sitting. It wouldn't surprise me if half the lefties on these forums actually believe they are not on the left at all.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Do you think it's possible your judgment might be just a little biased on this? "I'm from the left, everything I see looks balanced and fair, therefore I'm not really left but centrist. Everyone who disagrees with me must be far right".

    You might think your opinions are in the middle, but that is where everyone thinks they are sitting. It wouldn't surprise me if half the lefties on these forums actually believe they are not on the left at all.
    Not really. A cursory look at almost any western world and if the American Democratic party were to run in pretty much all of them and they'd at best be a right of center party if not an outright solidly right wing party. Hell even the right wing in country's like England generally thinks things like the NHS are a great idea where even the American Democratic party couldn't get something like that passed.

    I'm not even sure how anyone can really debate this at this point if you even have a basic knowledge of global politics.

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