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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    that's not really godwining though.
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  2. #162
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    See, like right here Endus. How is this different than saying "The Left is known for ignoring the working class"?
    Because "the alt right" is a specific subgroup of right-wingers. If you said something about "communists" or "market socialists" or whatever, you could probably make an argument that applied broadly to that group. When you broaden it so widely to be just "the Left", you act like that's some hive mind that agrees on a whole broad range of topics that they really, fundamentally, don't. It's too broad a generalization to function.

    It doesn't mean you can't generalize about smaller, more ideologically-consistent groups, it's an issue with over-broadening it. If PosPosPos had said the same thing about "the Right", I'd have the same issue with that statement that I had with the earlier comments about "the Left".

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because "the alt right" is a specific subgroup of right-wingers. If you said something about "communists" or "market socialists" or whatever, you could probably make an argument that applied broadly to that group. When you broaden it so widely to be just "the Left", you act like that's some hive mind that agrees on a whole broad range of topics that they really, fundamentally, don't. It's too broad a generalization to function.

    It doesn't mean you can't generalize about smaller, more ideologically-consistent groups, it's an issue with over-broadening it. If PosPosPos had said the same thing about "the Right", I'd have the same issue with that statement that I had with the earlier comments about "the Left".
    Isn't there segmentation in that group as well and makes them immune to mass generalization? I truly think they aren't all white nationalists.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Of course there is a left and a right. There are two VERY different and VERY incompatible methods of dealing with some issues that simply cannot be integrated permanently.
    I think you missed his point: "the Left" and "the Right" are loose coalitions of people with varying ideologies and core issues. Just like everybody on the Right isn't a gun nut or an Evangelical Christian or a Pepe, everybody on the Left isn't a SJW or a hippie or in the PC police.

  5. #165
    Deleted
    Love live identity politics. I remember Christopher Hitchens once said that trying to unite atheists is like trying to herd cats. It's hard not to draw that very same parallel with the modern Left. I can think of few finer examples than the hijacking of OWS, the hijacking of a Bernie rally by BLM, and so forth.

  6. #166
    The main American Left party looks still awfully right wing to most of the world. Hell even our right wing parties are more left.

  7. #167
    Sounds almost as if Fukuyama recognizes that history kept right on trucking after all?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    The Democratic party is not a "left" party.
    Hahahaha

    No but seriously, they may think themselves a 'soft' left, but left they are. It's like being a little bit pregnant

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It doesn't mean you can't generalize about smaller, more ideologically-consistent groups, it's an issue with over-broadening it. If PosPosPos had said the same thing about "the Right", I'd have the same issue with that statement that I had with the earlier comments about "the Left".
    Pretty much, there's a reason why I always say "far right" or "alt right", when referring to "mainstream" and "non-mainstream" republicans respectively.

    To Republicans, there's no difference between any of the sub-groups that oppose them, because they are contrarian and will always pick a stance that's ideologically more extreme and/or opposite to their counterparts, rather than based on merit or at least some metric that doesn't involve "lolololdemocrats".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Hahahaha

    No but seriously, they may think themselves a 'soft' left, but left they are. It's like being a little bit pregnant
    They are about as "left" or "soft left" as being central right, so it's like admitting you can't tell your left from your right hand.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2017-01-01 at 11:01 AM.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  10. #170
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Hahahaha

    No but seriously, they may think themselves a 'soft' left, but left they are. It's like being a little bit pregnant
    The Democrats on average aren't even 'soft' left.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The Democrats on average aren't even 'soft' left.
    Not that they can ever be as "right" as the Republicans, because the Republicans will just slip further into extremism even if the Democrats continue to push further right.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Ignoring things that don't matter frees us up so we can focus on universal ideas such as the individual, liberty, the economy. Identity is just a way for people to try to feel special without regard for their own merit.
    I'm glad you're the one who gets to decide that none of those things matter or are important to focus on. I'll be sure to let my girlfriend know that her experiences as a black woman in America or her family are invalid because you declared they don't matter or aren't important to address.

    Thank God you have the best solution to fix the race issues. Ignore it because it isn't an issue for you personally and it'll go away.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Wells your identity doesn't matter. What matters is your quantitative output. What do you offer to civilization? No serious person cares about your ethnicity, genitals, or other identity issues.
    In fantasy ideal world land. Then we come back to the real world you seem so unattached to where they've conducted studies where they send out thousands of resumes and found that with resumes that have too "black" of a name received call back rates at a hugely reduced rate, I forget the exact percentage. I do recall a study they did in Sweden about Muslim sounding names and the resumes that had too Muslimy names received a 50%-55% lower call back rate. And before you try and claim anything else the resumes were exactly the same with the singular difference being the name submitted. If people actually acted like the way you claim they did that'd be great. They don't an frequently even if they claim they do unconscious/societal conditioning still sculpts our behavior.

    And that to me is the real issue. Any acknowledgement that there might still be a lingering problem gets shouted down by people like you as "ra ra ra divises identity politics ra ra ra not everyone is like that, ra ra ra affirmative action is racist against white people!" and told to shut up and quit playing the race card.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2017-01-01 at 11:20 AM.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    They are about as "left" or "soft left" as being central right, so it's like admitting you can't tell your left from your right hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The Democrats on average aren't even 'soft' left.
    Do you think it's possible your judgment might be just a little biased on this? "I'm from the left, everything I see looks balanced and fair, therefore I'm not really left but centrist. Everyone who disagrees with me must be far right".

    You might think your opinions are in the middle, but that is where everyone thinks they are sitting. It wouldn't surprise me if half the lefties on these forums actually believe they are not on the left at all.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Do you think it's possible your judgment might be just a little biased on this? "I'm from the left, everything I see looks balanced and fair, therefore I'm not really left but centrist. Everyone who disagrees with me must be far right".

    You might think your opinions are in the middle, but that is where everyone thinks they are sitting. It wouldn't surprise me if half the lefties on these forums actually believe they are not on the left at all.
    Not really. A cursory look at almost any western world and if the American Democratic party were to run in pretty much all of them and they'd at best be a right of center party if not an outright solidly right wing party. Hell even the right wing in country's like England generally thinks things like the NHS are a great idea where even the American Democratic party couldn't get something like that passed.

    I'm not even sure how anyone can really debate this at this point if you even have a basic knowledge of global politics.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The Democrats on average aren't even 'soft' left.
    Thats funny since Hillary tried to push every left wing topic possible when going for election. Which is why she lost
    There is the sad paradox of a world which is more and more sensitive about being politically correct, almost to the point of ridicule, yet does not wish to acknowledge or to respect believers’ faith in God

  16. #176
    Old God I Push Buttons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Do you think it's possible your judgment might be just a little biased on this? "I'm from the left, everything I see looks balanced and fair, therefore I'm not really left but centrist. Everyone who disagrees with me must be far right".

    You might think your opinions are in the middle, but that is where everyone thinks they are sitting. It wouldn't surprise me if half the lefties on these forums actually believe they are not on the left at all.
    You realize that Democrats aren't regressive leftists right?

    I'm a registered Democrat, for example. My stance on various things:

    - Against abortion, but it should be legal.
    - In favor of gay marriage, but I don't think religious institutions should be forced to officiate gay weddings or allow the use of their property for such ceremonies.
    - I think the military should be big as fuck, we're the world police.
    - I think taxes on the rich/large businesses should be much higher, and higher in general for most people.
    - I think welfare (all forms) should be far more stringent, especially for able bodied people able to work; until such a time as we transition to an inevitable UBI.
    - I think there should be single payer health insurance provided by the federal government, Universal Healthcare would be nice, but it is far to late for that to occur anytime in the foreseeable future.
    - I think people who identify as any gender other than male or female have a mental illness that should be treated.
    - With regard to things like BLM and poverty among blacks, I think the buck stops with black communities. Reverse discrimination, the welfare state, etc., has clearly failed to have any meaningful effect.
    - I think guns should be legal.
    - On that same note, I think mental health screenings and treatment across the whole population should become far more prevalent.
    - I feel far more regulation is needed for various industries, telecoms, health insurance (until we have single payer), for example. They and many industries practice blatantly anti-consumer practices and literally nothing is done to stop it.
    - I think we should have improved border security/visitor tracking and recent illegal immigrants should be returned to their native countries.
    - With regard to the "recent illegal immigrants", I am of the opinion that illegal immigrants who have lived here for a long time, especially children/young adults, and families, should not be deported. People who have lived here for years, decades even, and have otherwise been law abiding apart from their illegal status, should be allowed to stay. But as I said above, we should do what we can to prevent illegal immigrant access in the first place.
    - I think minimum wage should not have a blanketed raised and that people shouldn't expect to live comfortably/raise a family on it. I do, however, think it should be enough to live on in any given area.

    Those are just a few contentious things I think of off the top of my head. Most "leftists" I know have similar opinions.

    The fringe lunatic feminist, genderqueer, blacks deserve reparations, all white people are the devil, etc., whatever nonsense people usually complain on this forum waste their votes on the Green Party or are Canadian like Endus, there aren't that many of them.

    They are just loud so their voices carry, like the alt-right, which most Trump supporters are not.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by sethman75 View Post
    Thats funny since Hillary tried to push every left wing topic possible when going for election. Which is why she lost
    Mostly because people like you aren't very bright and have a hard time understanding things. As has been said multiple times the Democratic party is only left wing relative to the American right wing. If they were to run in almost any other Western country they would be at best a center right party where as our right wing would be somewhere along the long of UKIP or whatever that Greek party is. A lot of these evil left wing topics are complete non-issue/bipartisan things in other countries like Universal healthcare.

    And again continue to act like Trump has some sort of mandate to govern when he lost the popular vote and if you look at the margins by which he won the swing states they're laughably small.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2017-01-01 at 12:08 PM.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  18. #178
    The left is in favour that the economy as a whole works for everybody, just because the right wing racist twisted that into ''you want to suck up to minorities'' doesn't make it true.

    WHen people complain about ''oh minorities gets all of the benefit'' and then go around and complain how they are struggling while trying to take away whatever the government does in order to improve the lower --- middle bracket, which they are a part of, of society maybe you should rethink who you should aim your anger to?

    Just because something benefits ''brown'' people (just others in general tbh) a few % more doesn't mean it won't bloody benefit you

  19. #179
    The Unstoppable Force
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    US politics have moved so far to the right than the democrats aren't even to the left anymore.

    Bernie was all about the economy, but he lost because he wasn't really a democrat.

  20. #180
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Do you think it's possible your judgment might be just a little biased on this? "I'm from the left, everything I see looks balanced and fair, therefore I'm not really left but centrist. Everyone who disagrees with me must be far right".
    I'm not sure what benefit that I, a staunch leftist, would have in claiming the Democrats aren't center to center-right.

    You might think your opinions are in the middle, but that is where everyone thinks they are sitting. It wouldn't surprise me if half the lefties on these forums actually believe they are not on the left at all.
    I don't think my opinions are on the middle, actually.

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