Pvp in Legion does have good points

[Ermelloth]

Despite all the massive negative feedback on forums, there are things that Legion actually fixed.

1. Faction balance.

If you look at all the ladders today, you'll see a 49-51% ratio. Compare it to end of MoP and WoD with 96-4% (total Alliance domination).

2. Human racial + problematic trinket procs

Race is no longer a big deal, since proc trinkets are disabled in instanced PvP now.

3. PvP entry level

Any casual can get into PvP much easier now after just dinging 110. Thanks to templates, the margin between high and low ilvl is not that high as it was with greens / PvP gear in previous expansions. Also, you can get plenty of 840+ drops very quickly.

4. About class imbalance

YES, of course, there are class imbalances. But it's been always this way, since the first patch of WoW. Name one season where some class / spec wasn't imbalanced.

Then, look at the ladders here: http://www.arenamate.net/

Look at spec percentage. Going slowly down from 7.7 to 3.2, but without drastic jumps. Compare it to WoD with Arms Warrior 12-15% and Frost Mage 9-11% up with healers, and then all others MILES down.

Actually, the current curve is a lot more balanced than in WoD. At least it's what statistics say.

Yes, PvP has its problems, but I think that many of the complaints aren't justified.


P.S. Yes I'm aware of 40% less participants in ladders. However, it's more on low end than on high end (look at glad range and you'll see same eternal Walliriks and Minpojkes and so on). Cause explain to 1200-1500 people why bother with lot harder and longer (healer dps vs healer dps in 2s come to mind) rated Arenas if you can get gear / prestige easier and LOT FASTER from random BGs / skirms / WQ? Here is the answer.

[rda]

Agree on 2, disagree on everything else.

1 - instead of Alliance domination, we have a reverse swing of the pendulum, it's now Horde domination. It's not a big deal, things will get better with time, the reason for the change was them (a) removing the benefits of EMFH, and (b) announcing that titles will be counted separately for each faction, that created movement back into the smaller / worse faction. Random BGs used to go 60/40 in favor of Alliance, now they go 60/40 in favor of Horde - as long as you exclude PVE BGs. There's no balance here just yet, it's hardly can be called an improvement over what it was before, it's just the reverse swing for now.

3 - no. Just no. Read the threads, this is discussed every week.

4 - you are reasoning about class balance based on top. That's a non-starter. It almost does not matter what happens at the top. What matters is what happens where 90% of the people are. And there we have melee roflpwning casters, and big imbalances with some specs being idiotically easy to play at 80% of their potential with others are very difficult to play at the same potential.

I get your enthusiasm but it is a bit misguided. Let's wait for news from the devs. I don't think they are complete idiots, they will fix things. But we don't yet have any of the fixes.

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Just so we are completely clear: Legion fixed nearly nothing. It created new big issues. Fixing a couple of comparably small and unimportant things.

[Ermelloth]

1. There is no Horde domination, check again on Arenamate.. It's very even, both in random and in rated.

2.

And there we have melee roflpwning casters, and big imbalances with some specs being idiotically easy to play at 80% of their potential with others are very difficult to play at the same potential.

Well, it is a valid point, however you should also take into account that except few single seasons casters and rogues always dominated over straightforward melee in PvP. Excessive CC and CC combos were the decisive factor in arenas. People could get chain CC'd for 30-40 seconds, what led to 3 vs 1 player 1 sapped / feared 1 sheep games.

Some casters due to get necessary buffs in 7.1.5 (and with templates it's lot easier to balance that), so it's not an issue which can't be fixed.

[rda]

1. There is no Horde domination, check again on Arenamate.. It's very even, both in random and in rated.

Nobody cares about the top. Nobody.

Random BGs are 60/40 in favor of the Horde - as long as you exclude AV / IoC which have been traditionally Alliance's for so long that the Horde don't even queue there.

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^^ That's for US, it's similar for EU.

[Ermelloth]

Well, as you've said it's a temporary issue. Many players were forced (or chose to) play Human to get anywhere in PvP in MoP / WoD and some of those are coming back to Horde now. Might even out in 3-4 months or so.

[rda]

By the way, just noticed:

... (and with templates it's lot easier to balance that) ...

No. This is not the case. Templates are too rough a tool, they don't help one bit. If there is an imbalance, you can't really fix it by altering a template, you have to go and alter the spell that is tuned badly. They are slowly waking up to that after waves of back and forth 10%s.

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Well, as you've said it's a temporary issue. Many players were forced (or chose to) play Human to get anywhere in PvP in MoP / WoD and some of those are coming back to Horde now. Might even out in 3-4 months or so.

Yes, but it's not something that Legion fixed. Legion didn't fix an imbalance, it reverted it into an opposite imbalance. The positive change is only in distributing EMFH. I counted it already by saying that I agree with item 2.

[Thoughtful Trolli]

1. Eliminate an obvious mistake and call it an achievement. I'll actually agree with this since there are so many more obvious mistakes that could be corrected, but no reason to hope for such.

2. See 1

3. It's always been entry level. You might want to say that players can join *competitively* now in Legion, but why would you say that when the first 34 points in your artifact are mandatory? It's less entry level than it has EVER been now.

4. Admit class balance still exists, but its worse. Thankfully, its such a huge shit show, the melee might actually have somewhere they can be.

If I had to make my own diagnosis, the only reason Legion PvP would feel good now is because you can fuck a motherfucker in 5 seconds again. Which explains why the only enemies I hate fighting now are any who have a "lol I'm unkillable for 10 seconds" ability.

[Ermelloth]

Well maybe.. However, I keep seeing many people posting screens with getting lvl 870 \ 880 \ even legendaries from... random BGs. I got a 880 bracer and a number of 865 \ 870s myself (comparable with 1700-1800 rating req. gear).

I still think that it's lot easier to run some 30-40 random BGs, win a few and grab items than going through rated ladder to get some 2k+ to get your hands on same, if guaranteed, 870-880 drops. What is easier for a starter? That's, imo, the main reason Arena participation dropped that much.

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Added: one more thing. Maybe it's due to recent banwaves, I don't know, but so-called "dreaded Russians" became lot easier to deal with in random BGs and casual PVP altogether. Beating a "Russian premade" is no longer an issue and weird things stopped happening as much.

[sofos87]

i agree with the OP but im gonna talk mostly about pvp and in a casual play... i enjoy legion a lot pvp wise, of course it has tis problems nothing is perfect and maybe its because WOD was sooooo bad that makes legion look like a paradise

the way i play the game : i dont have to grind for almost anything, there is no schedule in my mind like a list of things i have to do to be able to enjoy the game (tahts work not a video game) like previously

i just ding my alt and got first on dmg and kills in most of my bgs and im competitive enough for arena plays (those things couldnt happen before),do you forgot the green gear pvp? honor gear farming? rated pvp weapons only? pve gear outmatching pvp gear in pvp enviroment? have you forgot about all these days trying to have fun?except if wow is not about having fun and its about farming and gringing and having a schedule and be on time.........sorry my friends but i LOVE legion

class balance imo seems the best we had for years, viable wise no, waht i mean is: moonkins,shadow,rogues,mages,bm hunter,marksman,survival,arms,demon hunter, etch like every spec is viable in 3s we have the op classes like every time imo in legion they are locks,monks,frost dks,retris(not sure here),

and of course we have the notorious mashrooms of pvp fury,holy priest, and maybe arcane mages (although i have seen some rlly good ones)

but let be honest for a second when did wow was ever cared that much for pvp???? when was fury,arcane,holy preist viable in pvp??? evey expansion was the same shit every time rogue,mage,healers,warriors,dks,hunters,locks, and thats all have you ever played a moonkin in wrath?(before broken starfall boost) have you ever played an elemental in wod? a destruction warlock in cata? fury warrior since forever? why only 5+dps and healer specs be viable now we have only 2 specs that are not viable the rest can be played i dont know if their gonna get you gladiators but i dont think thats waht most people care about i believe that all these specs can get 2400+ more or less...... always remember just because a spec is better than the other it does not nececerily mean the last one is BAD!!!!

in general what im trying to say is everything is a matter of prespective i hear people farming ilevel for pvp check the blue posts ..... just that, i hear about people farming legendaries, farming artifact power, resources ,YOU DONT HAVE TO GRIND ANYTHING IT WILL COME TO YOU, YOU ARE VIABLE ENOUGH WITHOUT IT just relaaaaax and enjoy the game(except you like farming)

me and my friend have not bothered with any of that just the gear and the artifact power you get from bgs and arenas and some world quests and got 1800+ last seasson with casual playtime im not saying its much or skilled or any of these im saying its POSSIBLE TO ENJOY LEGION WITHOUT GRIND .. can you say the same for your favorite expansion????? btw he doesnt even have the 3rd relic slot unlocked because he does not care to do anything else besides arena/bgs.........lol now come and tell me again taht gear matters in legion pvp

jsut when you doupt legion go check the previous expansions but be sceptics just like you are at legion dont let nostalgia crush you logic

[Ermelloth]

Sofos, you supplemented what I wanted to say. Ty

[Tyrannica]

Only agree with 2.), everything and anything else is a mess.

Do not care about entry level pvp, its not even a point for me lol...

Either you are in into pvp or not, i do not know (most)casuals or dragonslayer that want to do pvp at any given chance, if the rewards are not achieved easier as in pve.

Templates are so missused that it hurts, i rather prefere the unbalances of past expansions, because it was not so obviously made up than this. this time, the pvp lead designer has no excuse for the created inbalance of classes.

[Deleted]

2 is right, everything is dead wrong and 2 didn't need the other junk. They killed PvP dead with the changes exactly as some had predicted. Stop trying to spin this.

[Deleted]

Nobody cares about the top. Nobody.

Random BGs are 60/40 in favor of the Horde - as long as you exclude AV / IoC which have been traditionally Alliance's for so long that the Horde don't even queue there.

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^^ That's for US, it's similar for EU.

There you are with your opinion that has to fit your playstyle. GG bro, GG.

It is absolutely important that everything ist balanced around the TOP. SImply because these are the players that benefit from unbalanced stuff as all these players are able to play.

If you think that everything should be balanced around the casuals in a game the game would be complete garbage as it is mostly a l2p issue. If something is "unbalanced" at the lower class...honestly, nobody should care and start working on themself.

[Deleted]

There you are with your opinion that has to fit your playstyle. GG bro, GG.

It is absolutely important that everything ist balanced around the TOP. SImply because these are the players that benefit from unbalanced stuff as all these players are able to play.

If you think that everything should be balanced around the casuals in a game the game would be complete garbage as it is mostly a l2p issue. If something is "unbalanced" at the lower class...honestly, nobody should care and start working on themself.

You are trolling, right? These are win ratios across millions of players for the factions and they SHOULD level out. It has nothing to do with the singular player in those instances. If you have something as lopsided as as this. With victory margins of 30-60% differences depending on faction something is off and it has zero to do with l2p.

[Deleted]

You are trolling, right? These are win ratios across millions of players for the factions and they SHOULD level out. It has nothing to do with the singular player in those instances. If you have something as lopsided as as this. With victory margins of 30-60% differences depending on faction something is off and it has zero to do with l2p.

No, I am not trolling. The top players represent the state of the game. Not the overall playerbase. But in WoW it seems to be different, I see. One guild clears the content fast as fuck and the stupid idiot that won't even clear heroic content cries that everything is too easy. That is how it works.

[rda]

There you are with your opinion that has to fit your playstyle. GG bro, GG.

It is absolutely important that everything ist balanced around the TOP. SImply because these are the players that benefit from unbalanced stuff as all these players are able to play.

If you think that everything should be balanced around the casuals in a game the game would be complete garbage as it is mostly a l2p issue. If something is "unbalanced" at the lower class...honestly, nobody should care and start working on themself.

If everything is balanced around mid-levels, it becomes automatically balanced at the top. Because balancing around mid-levels is balancing for real, it is way harder to do than the lip job of making sure that enough specs enter the top, so if you can balance around mid-levels, any issues you have at the top are fixed easily.

They are talking about balance in terms of the top because that kind of balance is easiest to do. You see some specs under-represented, you boost them. This likely ruins the mid-levels if the spec was over-represented there or if its counters were under-represented (happens all the time), but since you are concerned with your top, you get your representation and pretend (or worse, actually think so) that things are improved. We have been in that idiotic mode of balancing the top for at least three expansions already, now on fourth. Look where it got us. Balance never stops being stupid broken. Going for visible results at the top is part of the reason why.

[Kauko]

Great post OP. Still don't understand how some players just don't want to believe this facts.

No, I am not trolling. The top players represent the state of the game. Not the overall playerbase. But in WoW it seems to be different, I see. One guild clears the content fast as fuck and the stupid idiot that won't even clear heroic content cries that everything is too easy. That is how it works.

Also agree!

[rda]

No, I am not trolling. The top players represent the state of the game. Not the overall playerbase.

No. It's the overall playerbase.

[Deleted]

Yea I agree that Legion pvp got more positives than negatives, and it sure is a step in the right direction. However the biggest flaw is "no pvp gear" and the RNG that comes with it regarding rated pvp. No one should get necks for 5+ weeks in a row. It leads to less progression and therefore becomes less rewarding.
Imo should blizzard bring back the good old honor vendor with CP rewarded from rated content. It would add better gear progression and as a safe switch against bad RNG.

So in short: The reward system is imo the biggest flaw when it comes to rated pvp.

[Deleted]

No, I am not trolling. The top players represent the state of the game. Not the overall playerbase. But in WoW it seems to be different, I see. One guild clears the content fast as fuck and the stupid idiot that won't even clear heroic content cries that everything is too easy. That is how it works.

This is not PvE, this is not about content clearing, this is not about world firsts. You can f* right off with that. The comparison does not fit in the slightest. It's a terrible comparison and you should feel terrible for having made it. PvP is not a race against the clock where people try to beat NPCs over the head and will eventually succeed. It by it's very definition produces just as many losers as it does winners.

In fact, the rating system requires there to be more losers than winners to function. It is a pyramide scheme. Always has been. Which means that if one player would suddenly improve and make it to the top, another player would be kicked down to make place for him. The unwillingness to understand this, especially from people who usually mainly PvP is quite mind boggling to me.

Then again, the win rates posted here where for RANDOM BGs i.e the "for fun" part of the game. Logically given the sheer ammount of players one should see it level out in the long run approaching a 50/50 on average. It might vary as there is always a margin of error but never to such a degree as we're seeing here. If it does, this means that either the factions themselves are out of balance or the battleground is.

Interestingly enough the Battleground that is the "most even" as it is virtually the same for both team is Temple of Katmogu. It is ALSO the one that comes closests to the expected outcome after so many games played by such a huge number of players. It still favours the Horde quite a bit (10% higher win rates) but nowhere near as egrious as a 85%-70% win rate for one faction. Which logic dictates one should not see if both factions and the maps are a level playing field.

Great post OP. Still don't understand how some players just don't want to believe this facts.

"These facts" are not facts. They are personal perception at best and baseless assertions at worst. Some of them are also objectively wrong.

3. Being the worst offender. The disparity is WORSE because of Artifact Power. Gear still very much matters as it tremendously improves the templates. And guess what? You are basically forced into PvE to get it EVEN with a reasonably high ranking. Because it is a RNG clusterf* giving barely any rewards at all.

4. Is another one. Just because "a few of the knowns" are still around doesn't mean the ladder isn't collapsing. It's a pyramide. The lower ranks are ALWAYS the ones to fall first. Which means the highers are moving down and replacing them. Which in turn will see more players leave. And no THEY ARE NOT moving to uncoordinated PvP, they are stopping PvP altogether. Because random BGs are utterly worthless.

F*en hell, just because you agree with something it doesn't become a fact. Saying when you hold your hand into fire for too long you are going to get burned is a fact. We can go out and try it right now. We have ample evidence and proof for it. It has been throughly tested and can be reproduced with absolute certainty of the outcome.

Meanwhile your "facts" are running COUNTER to everything we can deduce from numbers, statistics and evidence we have and have NOTHING absolutely NOTHING to back them up but your personal perception. Why does it feel like you aren't even PvPing?!