Second vote on Scottish independence getting more likely

[Kalis]

Good for them. No one wants to be ruled by the English.

What has being ruled by the English got to do with Scotland?

[Deleted]

Good for them. No one wants to be ruled by the English.

Except Jamaica, of course. A majority there actually want to rejoin the UK because governance worked better when we did it.

[Kalis]

You underestimate how much of an influence it had on the undecided vote. If we knew then what we know now, a 10% swing was a very realistic possibility.

We don't know either way.

You really know you have lost an argument when you have to reference a small section of the support of a football team in an argument that has nothing to do with football and everything to do with politics and the future of a country. Yes, Glasgow Rangers FC still have a small minority support that see themselves as everything protestant British as opposed to insurgent catholic, but to argue that a minority of a minority in anyway supports you argument is both ignorant and idiotic.

My point was to refute what the other poster claimed, that the EU issue was the reason people voted to stay in the Union. Some doing so is not all doing so

The Op's link is woefully misinformed. The Radical Independence movement is a small and almost irrelevant movement, they are Robert Burns in a Che Guevara beret.

It's not the first time I've heard such claims, presumably it is based on some polling, though I can't say I've seen any at all on the subject. Scots tend to be more left wing than the rest of Britain, a lot of left wingers hate the EU, so I wouldn't be all that surprised if it is higher than you imagine.

I didn't say that it was any better or worse for its inclusion of the lowland Scots, i simply pointed out that you have little understanding of the term. Not only that, but as was common during the indyref, you think that Scottish independence = anti-english sentiment. This could not be further from the truth, do you really believe that the English are of any real consideration when we are deciding the future of our country? If you do believe that you are suffering from Trump levels of delusion.

I do believe that a proportion of Scots hate the idea of Union with England more than they care about the independence of Scotland. Not all of them, not even the majority, but can you honestly claim that anti-English sentiment is not quite high in Scotland? Unless it has evaporated in the last few minutes, I am going to call bullshit on that being the case. It is certainly higher than anti-Scottish sentiment is in England.

Your right, its something i struggle to understand, but i mostly view England and its culture from a distance. In Scotland, as we have briefly mentioned, we have lowland and highland cultures (on the international stage Scotland is largely portrayed through its highland culture, mostly due to the books of Sir Walter Scott), but English indigenous cultures are far more diverse. Until the end of WW2, and the subsequent collapse of the empire, commonly Great Britain and its empire would be referred to as England, so maybe thats why the English identify more readily with Britishness and because of that the english loose some of their individual english regional identity.

I think a lot of it is how we viewed the Union from the off, where the English embraced the idea of Britishness, because we were more interested in making money than giving a toss about which part of the British Isles we plopped out on and it stopped your lot from siding with the French every five minutes.

Being somehow different is more of an issue for the Scottish, possibly due to the Celtic revivalism of the 18th Century giving you a sense of otherness, we just think you have funny accents and a tendency to wear skirts, but apart from that are pretty much the same as we are.

[NED funded]

Scotland did not want to leave the UK, nor is there any evidence they do now.

The SNP calling for a referendum is what the SNP does. I'd be surprised if Sturgeon actually wants one at present, as it looks like it would fail, more likely just to make herself look good to the party faithful and/or to try and influence Westminster into conceding more power to the regional assembly.

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They do, as part of the UK.

As far as Im aware the BoE is the one in charge of monetary policy. If scotland had control of its monetary policy, it could pass specific policy that suits its needs.

[Kalis]

As far as Im aware the BoE is the one in charge of monetary policy. If scotland had control of its monetary policy, it could pass specific policy that suits its needs.

In spite of its name the Bank of England is the UK central bank, not solely an English one. The name is a relic of it being founded pre-Acts of Union.

England doesn't have control over its monetary policy either, none of the individual Home Nations do, we do as part of the UK though.

[Rennadrel]

Maybe Canada should welcome them with open arms and open hearts!

Only if scotch prices get cut in half.

[Deleted]

As far as Im aware the BoE is the one in charge of monetary policy. If scotland had control of its monetary policy, it could pass specific policy that suits its needs.

Remember when the Bank of Scotland needed a bailout to avoid going bankrupt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_U...rescue_package

However, of these, Abbey, Barclays, Clydesdale, HSBC, Nationwide, and Standard Chartered chose not to receive any government money,[15] leaving Lloyds and RBS as the only major recipients.

[Kalis]

Remember when the Bank of Scotland needed a bailout to avoid going bankrupt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_U...rescue_package

However, of these, Abbey, Barclays, Clydesdale, HSBC, Nationwide, and Standard Chartered chose not to receive any government money,[15] leaving Lloyds and RBS as the only major recipients.

To be a pedant, Bank of Scotland and Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) are two different things.

They even have different logos, though I think they went to the same designer.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Bless your consistent ignorance

Personally I am not convinced the majority of Scotland want independence 62% voted to remain in the EU, that doesn't translate to pro independence

The last vote was fairly close...Brexit may have been enough to push it over the line.

[Shadowmelded]

Remember when the Bank of Scotland needed a bailout to avoid going bankrupt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_U...rescue_package

However, of these, Abbey, Barclays, Clydesdale, HSBC, Nationwide, and Standard Chartered chose not to receive any government money,[15] leaving Lloyds and RBS as the only major recipients.

What does an international Banking group run by a guy from Manchester and another guy from New Zealand have to do with Scotland's financial capabilities?

[NED funded]

In spite of its name the Bank of England is the UK central bank, not solely an English one. The name is a relic of it being founded pre-Acts of Union.

England doesn't have control over its monetary policy either, none of the individual Home Nations do, we do as part of the UK though.

What I'm getting at is that the BoE pursues monetary policy in the benefit of the entire union. If scotland go its indepence policy could be more personalized. Also saying Scotland doesn't stand a chance reminds of the alarmism when Ireland left the union and now its outperforming northern ireland.

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Remember when the Bank of Scotland needed a bailout to avoid going bankrupt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_U...rescue_package

However, of these, Abbey, Barclays, Clydesdale, HSBC, Nationwide, and Standard Chartered chose not to receive any government money,[15] leaving Lloyds and RBS as the only major recipients.

I dont know what the rbs has to do with the hypothetical scottish monetary policy?

[Kalis]

What I'm getting at is that the BoE pursues monetary policy in the benefit of the entire union. If scotland go its indepence policy could be more personalized. Also saying Scotland doesn't stand a chance reminds of the alarmism when Ireland left the union and now its outperforming northern ireland.

Scotland would peg its currency to Sterling and/or the Euro, or adopt the Euro if they go into the EU, so how exactly would it be able to pursue a monetary policy that benefits Scotland?

And people didn't really give a shit about whether or not Ireland could go it alone, it wasn't a peaceful transition, it was a civil war.

[NED funded]

Scotland would peg its currency to Sterling and/or the Euro, or adopt the Euro if they go into the EU, so how exactly would it be able to pursue a monetary policy that benefits Scotland?

And people didn't really give a shit about whether or not Ireland could go it alone, it wasn't a peaceful transition, it was a civil war.

The fact that they could decide wheather or not join the Euro or keep the Sterling would be a decisition made by Scotland and it's central bank, that's having control.

Also, despite people not caring most predicted the failure of Ireland.

[Kalis]

The fact that they could decide wheather or not join the Euro or keep the Sterling would be a decisition made by Scotland and it's central bank, that's having control.

As they want to join the EU, they'd have to adopt the Euro under SNP proposals, not that they actually qualify for membership, but whatever. How would they be having control and not just a single choice of who dictates their monetary policy for them?

If they adopted Sterling they'd be relinquishing their voice in Westminster and subsequent influence over the Pound, they'd have even less say than they do now.

It's a bizarre argument, there is no decent economic reason for independence, sovereignty is the only one that makes sense. Their arguments are essentially the same as those for Brexit, but without the immigration concerns, as no bugger wants to emigrate to Scotland.

Also, despite people not caring most predicted the failure of Ireland.

They weren't doing so well until the EU, more accurately net contributors from the EU such as the UK, started pumping in money and they followed an Anglosphere business model.

'Hey Scotland, look at Ireland! You too could have an economy dependent on dodgy corporate tax arrangements after being piss poor for 70 years.' Ooh, tempting.

[Shadowmelded]

no bugger wants to emigrate to Scotland.

Actually a number of people do, especially people who want to stay post-study but guess what keeps getting denied. The comparison to Brexit is a little disingenuous as the EU has far less control over what the UK does than the UK does Scotland.

[Kalis]

Actually a number of people do, especially people who want to stay post-study but guess what keeps getting denied. The parallels between Brexit and Independence are more than a little disingenuous as the EU has far less control over what the UK does than the UK does Scotland.

Every EU citizen is free to live in Scotland, so how come hardly any do if so many want to go? The reason that immigration wasn't a Brexit issue for Scotland is that they hardly have any immigrants there, it is as some might say 'Hideously white'.

Scottish independence arguments are basically sovereignty and economy, which is Brexit arguments barring immigration. I get that SNP supporters don't want to tar themselves with the same brush as UKIP, but there is bugger all difference except one leans left and one right.

[Shadowmelded]

Every EU citizen is free to live in Scotland, so how come hardly any do if so many want to go? The reason that immigration wasn't a Brexit issue for Scotland is that they hardly have any immigrants there, it is as some might say 'Hideously white'.

Scottish independence arguments are basically sovereignty and economy, which is Brexit arguments barring immigration. I get that SNP supporters don't want to tar themselves with the same brush as UKIP, but there is bugger all difference except one leans left and one right.

Except the sovereignty argument has far more weight when you don't actually have it which isn't the case for the UK in the EU. The UK is a sovereign nation, Scotland is not. This isn't partisan, it's just not an accurate comparison. The SNP are an actual credible party with real policies. Ukip are the BNP in suits.

[NED funded]

As they want to join the EU, they'd have to adopt the Euro under SNP proposals, not that they actually qualify for membership, but whatever. How would they be having control and not just a single choice of who dictates their monetary policy for them?

If they adopted Sterling they'd be relinquishing their voice in Westminster and subsequent influence over the Pound, they'd have even less say than they do now.

It's a bizarre argument, there is no decent economic reason for independence, sovereignty is the only one that makes sense. Their arguments are essentially the same as those for Brexit, but without the immigration concerns, as no bugger wants to emigrate to Scotland.

I'm not sure Im getting what you are saying here. They can choose between the Euro and the Sterling, but that's not really a choice because..¿ reasons?

They weren't doing so well until the EU, more accurately net contributors from the EU such as the UK, started pumping in money and they followed an Anglosphere business model.

'Hey Scotland, look at Ireland! You too could have an economy dependent on dodgy corporate tax arrangements after being piss poor for 70 years.' Ooh, tempting

Isn't that what Theresa May is planning? Turning Britain into a tax haven. But thats besides the point, what I was saying is that predictions of failure, yes even economic ones aren't set in stone. 50 years ago China had no future and now is the second largest economy.

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Every EU citizen is free to live in Scotland, so how come hardly any do if so many want to go? The reason that immigration wasn't a Brexit issue for Scotland is that they hardly have any immigrants there, it is as some might say 'Hideously white'.

Scottish independence arguments are basically sovereignty and economy, which is Brexit arguments barring immigration. I get that SNP supporters don't want to tar themselves with the same brush as UKIP, but there is bugger all difference except one leans left and one right.

Ironically enough the regions in which leave won are the least affected by immigration, but the most devastated ones by global competition.

[Kalis]

Except the sovereignty argument has far more weight when you don't actually have it which isn't the case for the UK in the EU. The UK is a sovereign nation, Scotland is not. This isn't partisan, it's just not an accurate comparison.

Soctland gave sovereignty to the UK, the UK gave sovereignty to the EU, there is some difference in degree, but fundamentally they are the same argument. Your position is partisan.

The SNP are an actual credible party with real policies. Ukip are the BNP in suits.

To characterise UKIP as 'BNP in suits' is more of the same 'call everybody a racist' nonsense that people have gotten so fed up with in recent times. What they wanted for the UK was no different to what the SNP are calling for in Scotland, so that makes the SNP Stalinists in kilts.

[Tennis]

Except Jamaica, of course. A majority there actually want to rejoin the UK because governance worked better when we did it.

Well that's one country. Hopefully Jamaica can get their act together.