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  1. #441
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    He's like brainwashed by the emperors other daughter iirc. Susan Sarandon played her in the made for TV movies. Irulans sister.
    Nah, the guy he kills is Alia's secret lover. Duncan is married to Alia at this point, and she's gone mad due to her Grandfather's memory stuck in her abomination mind.

    Marking these because I hope they do Messiah and Children of Dune for the full trilogy.


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  2. #442
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Nah, the guy he kills is Alia's secret lover. Duncan is married to Alia at this point, and she's gone mad due to her Grandfather's memory stuck in her abomination mind.

    Marking these because I hope they do Messiah and Children of Dune for the full trilogy.
    Yea she's an abom because the ancestral memory of her grandfather has taken control. Leto keeps resurrecting duncan and then so do the BG because why not? By the end he's the only one who can escape the tachyon net thats trying to trap the no ship hes on with miles teg and scytale and a bunch of gholas and thats where Herbert's books end.

    And those books will never get made into movies they are far too cerebral. I wonder if David Lynch will watch this one.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-10-23 at 08:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Solid production, acting, and scenery..... but, what a shallow interpretation of the book. I was kind of bored throughout waiting for things to "kick in". Never happened.
    The problem with trying to make a movie out of Dune is the books are so much more than just the plot. Its the reasons why the plot happens that is much more important. Heck, in the first book Piter pretty much just spills the beans for the plot of first half of the book anyway in chapter 2! Princess Irulan informs the reader who the traitor is well before it unfolds in the main plot. Still, it was fasinating to read through the plot even though you knew what was going to happen to a large degree, it just happened in a sort of unexpected way. Its almost like Frank wanted to give the reader a taste of the prescience Paul would later feel.

    How do you do this well in a short 2ish hour move? If you ask me I would have ended the movie earlier, when they meet up with Kynes, and started the second movie with Duncan's sacrifice.

    I do like the move. It is one thing to critisise a movie and another thing to make one. Im curious how people that never read the books at all feel about it.

  4. #444
    Seems to be getting good reviews.

  5. #445
    Scarab Lord Skorpionss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    loud =/= good
    Holy fuck 1000x this. Saw it in an IMAX theater today, some scenes were so fucking loud I was literally in physical pain. Even deaf people were like, "can you turn the volume down a bit"?

  6. #446
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    It is at the end of Messiah. He's a gift by Scytale to Paul after Chani's death at the birth of the twins, as an example of how they could bring Chani back, but his ulterior motive is not beyond Paul's logic. Then Paul sees without sight and murders the Tleilaxu when he holds a knife over the children when Paul doesn't take his bait.

    Then Stilgar slays him in Children starting the war against Alia when he breaks the sanctity of the sietch.
    He was given to paul before Chani died. They used to fact that he recovered his full memories as a way to cripple paul with the choice of bringing Chani back to life as a ghola.
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  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Yes there is.

    Duncan Idaho is in every book and is the main hero in the end.
    He is not the main character in the first 3 books. He was never even intended to be in a second book until Herbert found that book readers really liked him for some reason so he brought him back as a ghola in the second one. He's also not really even the main character in the last 3 books. The last two I just reread recently along with the third one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    If you count all of the books from start to end you could argue the villain is the overarching character of everything. But of the Herbert books, it's always been Leto. Even before he was born, his existence is spoken of and purpose talked about.
    I'm not in agreement at all there as someone who's seen interviews of Herbert and who owns the biography written by his son on him which goes somewhat deeply into the writing process for all of those books. Dune was originally meant to be a trilogy. He didn't have the story fleshed out past the first book though. The main things he wanted to put in the books weren't even characters or plot points so much as ideas he wanted to explore and put into a novel. So he wrote the first book, eventually got it published and of course it became a huge success so then wrote the second one. The third one was originally meant to be the final Dune book but of course by that time Dune was a huge sensation and he was getting offered the biggest book deal of all time to keep it going so he did. Its hugely erroneous to look back now and say that Leto was always meant to be the main character because that isn't at all how it happened based on everything I have seen or read on this subject. He became one of the main characters of the third book and then obviously the main character of the fourth with some mentions in the last two. As did Idaho to some degree which wasn't planned out ahead of time either. It just turned out that people kept writing to him and would say how much they loved his character so Herbert decided to keep putting him in the books as a form of fan service.
    Last edited by Berndorf; 2021-10-23 at 09:31 PM.

  8. #448
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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  9. #449
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by last1214 View Post
    The problem with trying to make a movie out of Dune is the books are so much more than just the plot. Its the reasons why the plot happens that is much more important. Heck, in the first book Piter pretty much just spills the beans for the plot of first half of the book anyway in chapter 2! Princess Irulan informs the reader who the traitor is well before it unfolds in the main plot. Still, it was fasinating to read through the plot even though you knew what was going to happen to a large degree, it just happened in a sort of unexpected way. Its almost like Frank wanted to give the reader a taste of the prescience Paul would later feel.

    How do you do this well in a short 2ish hour move? If you ask me I would have ended the movie earlier, when they meet up with Kynes, and started the second movie with Duncan's sacrifice.

    I do like the move. It is one thing to critisise a movie and another thing to make one. Im curious how people that never read the books at all feel about it.
    Good man, repeating for the millionth time whats been said about so many book->movie translations. In particular, and why I personally mentioned the shallowness was/is due to just how shallow the new version is: it lacks the soul of the original material. The 1984 version, while far from perfect, did a better job of capturing the soul of source material.

  10. #450
    The Lightbringer MrPaladinGuy's Avatar
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    Excellent version and I've watched it 5 times. I was worried about the actor they had for Paul, but he was fine. The movie had a real Arrival vibe in it's minimalist design and I love it. The music was excellent as well and the sound design was superb, although there was some dialog so hard to hear I think anyone without a properly setup home theater system listening in a silent room could still have trouble hearing, but still- it was great. I watched it as loud as my high-end 5.1 home theater system could handle without audio distortion. I can't wait for the PCM or DTS-HD MA off of the bluray as DD+ can't compare. It turns out Hans Zimmer is a fan of the books and turned down doing the Tenet soundtrack so he could score the Dune soundtrack.

    If this was accomplished during the actual Covid lockdown..imagine what they can do without that limitation.

    A few key differences I noticed - Spoilers !

    The navigators weren't shown
    The ships weren't shown appearing at their destination via bent space (via the navigators)
    No Feyd-Rautha
    Jessica didn't use the voice on Stilgar
    There weren't still-suits left in the ship
    Last edited by MrPaladinGuy; 2021-10-23 at 10:03 PM.
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  11. #451
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPaladinGuy View Post

    A few key differences I noticed - Spoilers !


    No Feyd-Rautha
    This makes sense, in the book he's part of the Baron's scheme to come across as gracious and saviour like in contrast to Rabban's brutality. He's not meant to be introduced yet.


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  12. #452
    The Lightbringer MrPaladinGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    This makes sense, in the book he's part of the Baron's scheme to come across as gracious and saviour like in contrast to Rabban's brutality. He's not meant to be introduced yet.
    Ah, I never read the books but I've seen both 1984 versions and the 2000's mini-series. Also, this version of Feyd wouldn't be anywhere near as special since back then Sting is what made that role.
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  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    This makes sense, in the book he's part of the Baron's scheme to come across as gracious and saviour like in contrast to Rabban's brutality. He's not meant to be introduced yet.
    Yup fayde won't come in until raban gets to go full beast mode on arakis first. Fayde is the silk glove basically trying to terrorize them so that when conditions improve everybody is greatful for the change.

  14. #454
    Elemental Lord PfeffermintShake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Solid production, acting, and scenery..... but, what a shallow interpretation of the book. I was kind of bored throughout waiting for things to "kick in". Never happened.
    Ya I felt the same way. My favorite interpretation of this critique is; they sanded down the more interesting elements.
    They took out the visceral joy of watching a Sci Fi movie:
    • The depiction of interstellar travel was boring. Just a matter-of-factually "we're here!". The opposite of any child like joy of a shoooosh or vroooom!.
    • The pain induction box of the BEne Geserit was boring. I mean, great job by Timothy wincing a bunch. But was it really the box, or just some bad egg salad for lunch?
    • The Saduaker as space ninjas. Their entrances as silent wire-fu drops, really robbed them of a lot of their supposed brutality and penance.
    • The BAron's various afflictions were too obscured. Total opposite of Lynch embracing everyone's Dr.Pimplepopper and body horror.



    Too much of an adult drama that didnt embrace the weirdness that makes sci fi fun.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Oh alright well hey kids HUGE SPOILER for all those out there Darth Vader is lukes father. SORRY

    Come the fuck on. The books were around since the fucking 60s and I doubt anyone who hasn't read them is trolling this forum. You wouldn't put a spoiler tag for Vader.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He's like brainwashed by the emperors other daughter iirc. Susan Sarandon played her in the made for TV movies. Irulans sister.
    I get that your whole shtick is being an edgelord, but calm down champ. Lotsa folks on this forum are youngish and haven't read some of the classics. Hell, even for older folks like me, it;s not that wildly common to have read the whole series. I read Dune 1-3 decades ago but never read the rest until quite recently. Check your aggression for all of five minutes and try being mildly considerate.

  16. #456
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    I get that your whole shtick is being an edgelord, but calm down champ. Lotsa folks on this forum are youngish and haven't read some of the classics. Hell, even for older folks like me, it;s not that wildly common to have read the whole series. I read Dune 1-3 decades ago but never read the rest until quite recently. Check your aggression for all of five minutes and try being mildly considerate.
    Well he went about it the wrong way. Expecting people to use spoiler tags for a 13+ year old book is a bit much. I could understand if we were even within a year of release but it's been 13 years since the last book.
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  17. #457
    I'm just put gonna put spoiler tags around the whole post because who cares.

    I didn't like it, thought it was meh. First, a few of the roles were miscast. Josh Brolin is not Gurney Halleck, not even close. Gurney is a minstrel with kind of a rascally side, the type of leader who hangs out with the men at a campfire but is still a great fighter. Brolin played himself, and the next time we see him break into song playing an instrument in a movie will also be the first. Harkonnen and Leto were much better cast in the SciFi miniseries, when they were played by Ian McNeice and William Hurt. Skarsgaard is great actor but Harkonnen is supposed to be a man lost to creature comforts, kind of a foppish, querulous old man who is nevertheless incredibly evil while bragging to his subordinates about it. Skarsgaard played him as a sinister character. Oscar Isaac didn't do it for me as Leto. Leto is supposed to a tall, determined, good man who has bitten off more than he can chew and is gradually realizing that. He's flawed. I didn't get that from Isaac, who plays the perfect ruler forced into a bad situation. I think Zendaya will be perfect as Chani in the next movie but she was too big a name to play the role the way it was supposed to be played in this movie - we should just have gotten a couple very brief flashes of Chani and that's it. I think they expanded the role because it was Zendaya. Dr. Yueh's role was too small (probably because he wasn't played by a big name actor). Rebecca Ferguson didn't give off enough of a "mother" vibe for me as Jessica - she looks barely older than Paul. Again, she was better cast in the SciFi miniseries. Momoa was fine as Idaho and Chalamet fine as Paul. Hawat as a fat guy seemed wrong, he was supposed to be master of assassins and a warrior, while also probably the smartest character in the book up to that point, and none of that came across in the movie.

    Now the plot. The very beginning when they say that the Harkonnens beat the Fremen was just wrong. The Fremen could have always beaten the Harkonnens, they just never united to do it (see, the Fremen owning Sardaukar in the book even before Paul trained them). This is an essential plot point; the Fremen are a sleeping giant that Paul wakes up, not a beaten down oppressed people. Liet being a woman, fine, it's 2021, but I didn't like his/her death scene, it's much more interesting to see him wandering the sand, wondering if he made the right choice in saving Paul because he's worried what Paul will do while knowing that he has sacrificed his life to do it. That's leading into a central theme of the series - is a Messiah even a good thing? This also relates back to the point that the Fremen are a sleeping giant, and how in the long term, waking them up so they conquer the galaxy will also lead to the utter ruin of their way of life. Instead we got a flaccid heroic "I'm taking you with me" defiant scene where she kills a couple Sardaukar via worm suicide.

    The Harkonnens are supposed to the equal of the Atreides, with the Baron far less clever than he thinks he is, with Rabban a "tank brain" who mismanages Arrakis, but they made them a bit too powerful seeming. i guess they were hiding the worms for the next movie, they're supposed to pop up to the surface in order to swallow something (otherwise how do the maker hooks work) not create some sort of weird vortex from below.

    Some of it is hard because the movie can't be as long as the book and things needed to get cut out, but I think a lot of the characters were flattened in a way that took some of the heart out of the story, and some stuff was added that changed it substantially. There are just so many [I]little[/I] things that seem off, like when Gurney says he'll try to make do as the weapons master in Duncan's absence (in the books Duncan says Gurney is better fighter, beating him "6 times out of 10"). In casting so many stars, I felt like they ended up with a cast that fit their characters far less well than the extremely budget SciFi series did 20 years ago. Disappointed.
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2021-10-26 at 03:52 AM.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    I'm just put gonna put spoiler tags around the whole post because who cares.

    I didn't like it, thought it was meh. First, a few of the roles were miscast. Josh Brolin is not Gurney Halleck, not even close. Gurney is a minstrel with kind of a rascally side, the type of leader who hangs out with the men at a campfire but is still a great fighter. Brolin played himself, and the next time we see him break into song playing an instrument in a movie will also be the first. Harkonnen and Leto were much better cast in the SciFi miniseries, when they were played by Ian McNeice and William Hurt. Skarsgaard is great actor but Harkonnen is supposed to be a man lost to creature comforts, kind of a foppish, querulous old man who is nevertheless incredibly evil while bragging to his subordinates about it. Skarsgaard played him as a sinister character. Oscar Isaac didn't do it for me as Leto. Leto is supposed to a tall, determined, good man who has bitten off more than he can chew and is gradually realizing that. He's flawed. I didn't get that from Isaac, who plays the perfect ruler forced into a bad situation. I think Zendaya will be perfect as Chani in the next movie but she was too big a name to play the role the way it was supposed to be played in this movie - we should just have gotten a couple very brief flashes of Chani and that's it. I think they expanded the role because it was Zendaya. Dr. Yueh's role was too small (probably because he wasn't played by a big name actor). Rebecca Ferguson didn't give off enough of a "mother" vibe for me as Jessica - she looks barely older than Paul. Again, she was better cast in the SciFi miniseries. Momoa was fine as Idaho and Chalamet fine as Paul. Hawat as a fat guy seemed wrong, he was supposed to be master of assassins and a warrior, while also probably the smartest character in the book up to that point, and none of that came across in the movie.

    Now the plot. The very beginning when they say that the Harkonnens beat the Fremen was just wrong. The Fremen could have always beaten the Harkonnens, they just never united to do it (see, the Fremen owning Sardaukar in the book even before Paul trained them). This is an essential plot point; the Fremen are a sleeping giant that Paul wakes up, not a beaten down oppressed people. Liet being a woman, fine, it's 2021, but I didn't like his/her death scene, it's much more interesting to see him wandering the sand, wondering if he made the right choice in saving Paul because he's worried what Paul will do while knowing that he has sacrificed his life to do it (leading into a central theme of the series - is a Messiah even a good thing?), than the heroic "I'm taking you with me" defiant scene she got. The Harkonnens are supposed to the equal of the Atreides, with the Baron far less clever than he thinks he is, with Rabban a "tank brain" who mismanages Arrakis, but they made them a bit too powerful seeming. i guess they were hiding the worms for the next movie, they're supposed to pop up to the surface in order to swallow something (otherwise how do the maker hooks work) not create some sort of weird vortex from below.

    Some of it is hard because the movie can't be as long as the book and things needed to get cut out, but I think a lot of the characters were flattened in a way that took some of the heart out of the story, and some stuff was added that changed it substantially. There are just so many [I]little[/I] things that seem off, like when Gurney says he'll try to make do as the weapons master in Duncan's absence (in the books Duncan says Gurney is better fighter, beating him "6 times out of 10"). In casting so many stars, I felt like they ended up with a cast that fit their characters far less well than the extremely budget SciFi series did 20 years ago. Disappointed.
    Sorry, but why does humility feel off? You’re entitled to your opinion, but Gurney was fiercely loyal and he and Idaho go back a long ways. He wasn’t trying to make his friend look bad by saying, “Now your real training begins.” I suppose you’d be the douche in his shoes though, only reason I can see you objecting.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Sorry, but why does humility feel off? You’re entitled to your opinion, but Gurney was fiercely loyal and he and Idaho go back a long ways. He wasn’t trying to make his friend look bad by saying, “Now your real training begins.” I suppose you’d be the douche in his shoes though, only reason I can see you objecting.
    It's a really small thing, almost kind of how Brolin delivers the line. In the book it's always clear that Gurney is very, very skilled, introduced that way in the prelude to the chapter. The biggest problem with the scene is certainly how poorly cast Brolin is. In that scene in the book, Gurney start out by singing a bawdy song and only gradually gets serious. Brolin is all business all the time and the way he says it seems to imply that he's not comfortable in the role. Reminds me of Russell Crowe playing Javert - just a horribly miscast big name. It's probably the smallest point in my post though, did you have thoughts on anything else I wrote?
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2021-10-26 at 03:30 AM.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    It's a really small thing, almost kind of how Brolin delivers the line. In the book it's always clear that Gurney is very, very skilled, introduced that way in the prelude to the chapter. The biggest problem with the scene is certainly how poorly cast Brolin is. In that scene in the book, Gurney start out by singing a bawdy song and only gradually gets serious. Brolin is all business all the time. Reminds me of Russell Crowe playing Javert - just a horribly miscast big name. It's probably the smallest point in my post though, did you have thoughts on anything else I wrote?
    Many, but I’m gonna wait until I see it a second time before I reply. I take the point about his attitude, but I put that on the director here. This is his interpretation of the story and Brolin’s portrayal is obviously what he wanted. Brolin has a pretth big range and pretending he only “plays himself” when the dude is very much a person who doesn’t take himself seriously? Yeah, I gotta take issue.

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