Why pvp feels so bad this expansion

[Tyrannica]

Yeah I remember when gemming your gear was really fun back in the day. Deciding whether you should be gemming all strenght or all crit or even remember pvp power gems? :O lol!

remember ArP gems in wotlk?

I saw hunters with that 2-3 shotting a blood dk in random bgs, while they had full resi gear and max hp and so on. lol

Same happened to a tree healderdruid, when permanent treeform still existed.

I wasn't the hunter, i was the guy watching in stealth......sometimes better stay in stealth lol

[Ohmega]

It feels better now than it ever did before. There have always been complaints about PvP and there always will be, but the complaints nowadays are largely minor relative to previous xpacs.

[mmowin]

remember ArP gems in wotlk?

I saw hunters with that 2-3 shotting a blood dk in random bgs, while they had full resi gear and max hp and so on. lol

Same happened to a tree healderdruid, when permanent treeform still existed.

I wasn't the hunter, i was the guy watching in stealth......sometimes better stay in stealth lol

Good ol' Armor Pen. Who remembers 100% armor pen warriors that would literally one shot you with their blade storm? This is the fun stuff I miss.

[Deleted]

It feels better now than it ever did before. There have always been complaints about PvP and there always will be, but the complaints nowadays are largely minor relative to previous xpacs.

Yes but pvp representation is at an alltime low because gameplay is boring af.

[Ohmega]

Yes but pvp representation is at an alltime low because gameplay is boring af.

Maybe it is at an all-time low because most pvp players really don't like pvp, for the sake of pvp. Maybe people need guaranteed rewards and the ability to smash people on the back of their gear. Judging from the complaints I see on Legion and PvP, that appears to be the case...

People I know - lifelong pvpers, across gaming platforms and within the mmo genre - are enjoying pvp in this game much more than they did in previous xpacs. They have done a really good job at trimming a lot of the "fat" that used to exist in this game and reducing the importance of gear. Nearly every class in every spec is viable in PvP now. That is a fairly awesome achievement for Blizzard.

[Mafic]

Maybe it is at an all-time low because most pvp players really don't like pvp, for the sake of pvp. Maybe people need guaranteed rewards and the ability to smash people on the back of their gear. Judging from the complaints I see on Legion and PvP, that appears to be the case...

People I know - lifelong pvpers, across gaming platforms and within the mmo genre - are enjoying pvp in this game much more than they did in previous xpacs. They have done a really good job at trimming a lot of the "fat" that used to exist in this game and reducing the importance of gear. Nearly every class in every spec is viable in PvP now. That is a fairly awesome achievement for Blizzard.

Current PVP is who can do their PVE rotation better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOdM33JwXNc

No wonder Cobrak quit.

[Ohmega]

Current PVP is who can do their PVE rotation better.

People say that, but it just is not true. And what do you mean by "PVE rotation"? Do you mean a series of abilities that maximize damage? If so, that is how you ought to be going about attacking another player, right? Just because you see things repeated does not mean they are worth repeating.

That argument is silly because of the amount of cc present in PvP currently. Interrupting someone's "rotation" is incredibly easy to do and it happens more often than not. Since that is the case, it must be the case that other things are more important than simply running in and hitting 3-4 buttons in quick succession, for most classes and most comps.

[Deleted]

People say that, but it just is not true. And what do you mean by "PVE rotation"? Do you mean a series of abilities that maximize damage? If so, that is how you ought to be going about attacking another player, right? Just because you see things repeated does not mean they are worth repeating.

That argument is silly because of the amount of cc present in PvP currently. Interrupting someone's "rotation" is incredibly easy to do and it happens more often than not. Since that is the case, it must be the case that other things are more important than simply running in and hitting 3-4 buttons in quick succession, for most classes and most comps.

1) Top-tier arena players are quitting in Legion.
2) too much automated stuff in the game right now, like meta with stun, auto-bubble, auto-trinket etc.

The gameplay just sucks.

[Crruor]

Yes but pvp representation is at an alltime low because gameplay is boring af.

Its at an alltime low because of the removal of grindable pvp gear. If you know that you cant break 1750 there isnt really a reason to play pvp from a reward perspective. World quests give you better gear.

Daily quests/rewards as a concept are there to get people to log in, they log in and then they remember how much they like to play and they stick around (which holds true for most games, which is why they exist), pvp gear was the same for the non hardcore pvpers. They did their cap and rediscovered how fun pvp was and they stuck around. And if they get bored the next weeks cap keeps them coming back.

If you could get conquest to buy 885-890 ilvl (pvp gear usually was on the level of normal, now heroic, endgame ilvl) pvp gear guaranteed after winning 10 games every week people would flock back to pvp just to get them. And the representation would go back up to prewod levels.

[Ohmega]

1) Top-tier arena players are quitting in Legion.
2) too much automated stuff in the game right now, like meta with stun, auto-bubble, auto-trinket etc.

The gameplay just sucks.

I don't care that "top-tier" players are quitting as that has nothing to do with any of the major points I put forward in defense of Legion PvP. I won't claim to understand why they are doing so or what caused them to get there, if that is even the case at all (that they are leaving at a quantitatively greater rate than previous xpacs). I have done arenas in each xpac since the start, above the 2.2k level (2s and 3s) and I am singing a different song than these "top-tier" players (as are my arena partners).

I see a lot of complaining about auto-bubble and auto trinket but not sure why. Does that render all of what takes place between those cooldown timers invalid or less important? Not at all.

The gameplay actually feels balanced, as far as I am concerned. When has there ever been as widespread class representation at the top of the ladder than there is now? Isn't it a really great thing that nearly every class in all of its specs is now viable in pvp? Aren't those things worth incorporating into your calculus?

- - - Updated - - -

Its at an alltime low because of the removal of grindable pvp gear. If you know that you cant break 1750 there isnt really a reason to play pvp from a reward perspective. World quests give you better gear.

Daily quests/rewards as a concept are there to get people to log in, they log in and then they remember how much they like to play and they stick around (which holds true for most games, which is why they exist), pvp gear was the same for the non hardcore pvpers. They did their cap and rediscovered how fun pvp was and they stuck around. And if they get bored the next weeks cap keeps them coming back.

If you could get conquest to buy 885-890 ilvl (pvp gear usually was on the level of normal, now heroic, endgame ilvl) pvp gear guaranteed after winning 10 games every week people would flock back to pvp just to get them. And the representation would go back up to prewod levels.

This is exactly right. "Pvpers" stopped playing for reasons unrelated to gameplay and mechanics. At least that appears to be the overwhelming majority of cases.

[Deleted]

Maybe it is at an all-time low because most pvp players really don't like pvp, for the sake of pvp.

Do you really believe that players would keep raiding if there were no rewards? WoW as a whole has always been about rewards.

[Viikkis]

I don't like the prestige system since it binds you into one character. It feels lame to play on an alt when your main is high on prestige. I understand that this kinda counters some of the FOTM rollers but it won't counter all of them. Prestige should be shared.

Also I really don't get why Blizz won't remove racials from PvP it's just dumb. And if I were in charge I would ban artifacts weapons from PvP as well.

[Deleted]

It's simply too time consuming to re-roll and I think that's why participation is so low.

If you re-roll, you have to grind your weapon talents again, you have to grind gear again through RNG drops instead of spending Honor/QP at a vendor.
And on top of that, your prestige level starts at 0, which sucks.

In comparison: in WoD, I could gear a fresh PvP alt in a single weekend and start playing rated games.

[finn]

It's simply too time consuming to re-roll and I think that's why participation is so low.

If you re-roll, you have to grind your weapon talents again, you have to grind gear again through RNG drops instead of spending Honor/QP at a vendor.
And on top of that, your prestige level starts at 0, which sucks.

In comparison: in WoD, I could gear a fresh PvP alt in a single weekend and start playing rated games.

absolutely! i used to love pvp'ing on many of my toons. whatever i just felt like: melee, ranged, tank.
and on top of that: almost every-bloody-thing is shared between your toons (i.e. accountwide) but not prestige.... so now i have one toon at pr3, another on pr2, two on pr5. yeah, i leveld 4 chars to max and got all honour talents, all Artifact Traits, and an average of 850-60 ilvl gear on everyone. but it just feels tedious and much too grindy. so i quit.

[Crruor]

Do you really believe that players would keep raiding if there were no rewards? WoW as a whole has always been about rewards.

They wouldnt. But that is his point, they took away the rewards from arenas for non hardcore players. So obviously people stopped playing.

[Ohmega]

They wouldnt. But that is his point, they took away the rewards from arenas for non hardcore players. So obviously people stopped playing.

Correct. My point was emboldened.

Some of us like PvP for the sake of PvP. My core group has always enjoyed just playing against other players, hence why we are all here and enjoying Legion PvP a great deal.

[Mafic]

People say that, but it just is not true. And what do you mean by "PVE rotation"? Do you mean a series of abilities that maximize damage? If so, that is how you ought to be going about attacking another player, right? Just because you see things repeated does not mean they are worth repeating.

That argument is silly because of the amount of cc present in PvP currently. Interrupting someone's "rotation" is incredibly easy to do and it happens more often than not. Since that is the case, it must be the case that other things are more important than simply running in and hitting 3-4 buttons in quick succession, for most classes and most comps.

But it is true.

The only way blizzard is "balancing" PVP is by adjusting damage tuning which directly effects PVE rotations (Eg. Assassination Rogues, Frost DKs). Without PVE level damage Assassination Rogues and Frost DKs drop like a rock.

Look at any DPS class in Legion and as soon as they are nerfed they disappear from relevancy? Why? Because PVE rotations is all that is left in WoW PVP.

In WotLk, Sub Rogues couldn't do DPS rotations and was actually a true control class. In Legion, Sub Rogues are still better off doing a PVE rotation than doing control because control has little meaning in Legion PVP.

Peeling melee is all but impossible in Legion PVP.

Interrupting at the wrong time is not punishing.

Healers are having to become more tankier than ever before.

[Ohmega]

But it is true.

The only way blizzard is "balancing" PVP is by adjusting damage tuning which directly effects PVE rotations (Eg. Assassination Rogues, Frost DKs). Without PVE level damage Assassination Rogues and Frost DKs drop like a rock.

Look at any DPS class in Legion and as soon as they are nerfed they disappear from relevancy? Why? Because PVE rotations is all that is left in WoW PVP.

In WotLk, Sub Rogues couldn't do DPS rotations and was actually a true control class. In Legion, Sub Rogues are still better off doing a PVE rotation than doing control because control has little meaning in Legion PVP.

Peeling melee is all but impossible in Legion PVP.

Interrupting at the wrong time is not punishing.

Healers are having to become more tankier than ever before.

Nearly every class and every spec within every class is relevant in PvP. (Definitely in battlegrounds and all things outside of the highest level of arenas.) That is how solid things are right now. Could you imagine saying that in previous iterations of this game? Of course not.

None of what you said computes or matches my experience. Interrupting at the right time is still incredibly important, especially in arenas. Mistiming an interrupt against a mistweaver is a downright death-sentence sometimes (as is the case against most healer/dps teams in 2v2). My partner and I have to time our burst perfectly while catching their heals otherwise our kill window is missed. Healers are incredibly powerful now, especially relative to previous xpacs. I also routinely peel melee off of my arena partner as a DK. Is it harder to do? Yes, but not nearly the problem you are making it out to be.

Most of my original post's questions remain untouched.

[Deleted]

Correct. My point was emboldened.

Some of us like PvP for the sake of PvP. My core group has always enjoyed just playing against other players, hence why we are all here and enjoying Legion PvP a great deal.

Sorry, I misread.

[Mafic]

Nearly every class and every spec within every class is relevant in PvP. .

That is false.

The template system by design is designating winners and losers in PVP. The pruning ensures that PVE rotations reign supreme.