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  1. #1

    What would be so bad about enabling LFR functionality for other difficulties?

    Both normal and HC are already extremely easy, even if you've never done them before you can put a group in LFG, set insane requirements and get carried. If the group wipes it's okay, you can always keep inviting more zerglings until they kill the bosses for you.

    "But omg they're gonna wipe and it will be a horrible experience!"

    No they are not, set ilevel requirements to 880, 890, whatever and they will do just fine. You can easily outgear both those modes just by running WQs and LFR and getting sick titanforged upgrades.

    "But omg skill > gear!"

    If you are not a mythic raider, this statement hasn't been true for many years now. What's the point of keeping overgeared casuals fermenting in LFR when they could be trying harder bosses and maybe even improving their skills?

    "but this will destroy casual guilds!"

    It already has, check any realm and you'll be hard-pressed to find a non-mythic raiding guild. Actually if anything, this will help mythic guilds as they'll have more relatively well-geared people to recruit.

    Hell you could even enable LFR for mythic and people would still kill bosses. Sure, mythic Skorpyron would destroy them at first, but in a few weeks only the most dedicated would still be attempting him and they might even improve to the point they're able to get a kill.

    "But omg no communication!"

    Simple, Blizzard uses their funds to create an in-house voicecom and integrate it into the game.

    This is coming from a mythic raider who wants to hit queue button and faceroll normal and heroic instead of applying to dozens of groups in LFG.

  2. #2
    The game has in game voice comms.

    No one uses it. The raid would never get completed if enabled for harder difficulties.

  3. #3
    Have you been in the group finder ToV normal runs? They are trash beyond trash. Hours to complete.
    Now you want to make it truely random by putting it in LFR? The sheer amount of whining that the player base would put out just isnt worth it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Both normal and HC ...

    I am a huge proponent of LFR, but there are limits as to how much difficulty you can expect random groups to handle. Normal Mode, I don't know, maybe-possibly... but almost definitely nothing beyond it would be possible.


    The problem is that , in order to assure a reasonable chance at success, Blizzard might need to put the bar for gear requirements above the actual drop-levels of the raid... which would be counter-productive.
    Last edited by Wingspan; 2017-03-12 at 01:53 PM.

  5. #5
    Like all other content dungeons/TW/raids as time goes on, there are less capable players carrying idiots, until its a full group of idiots screaming at each other for not know wtf is going on.
    Disarm now correctly removes the targets’ arms.

  6. #6
    The issue is not bad people. The issue is that people do not have the stomach to boot people for bad performance. If there truly is a LFR style queue for harder content then it will never be done as the players who actually want to do it will avoid it because it is so easy to make a group and roll. Why do content when the worst part of it is that bad performances are actually encouraged.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    The issue is not bad people. The issue is that people do not have the stomach to boot people for bad performance. If there truly is a LFR style queue for harder content then it will never be done as the players who actually want to do it will avoid it because it is so easy to make a group and roll. Why do content when the worst part of it is that bad performances are actually encouraged.
    I would argue the opposite is true. When someone initiates a vote kick people just vote yes to clear the prompt.

  8. #8
    Part of the difficulty of the difficulty above LFR is putting together a group. Most guilds only raid Normal and Heroic. I know you're claiming that you're hard pressed to find guilds that don't raid mythic, but the numbers on sites like WoWProgress just don't back up this claim. Far more *guilds* down normal and heroic bosses than mythic bosses. If you just let people queue for Normal and Heroic, you get rid of one of the few remaining community building elements of the game.

    Also, on many of the bosses, while they may not be super hard, unless the tanks and healers out gear the content to an insane degree, downing the bosses without the tanks and healers in voice comms would be exceptionally difficult. For example, in Heroic high botanist and Tichondrius you *have* to rotate CDs. You can't just have everyone popping their heals at the same time and then have none left for the next 2-3 minutes.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Both normal and HC are already extremely easy, even if you've never done them before you can put a group in LFG, set insane requirements and get carried. If the group wipes it's okay, you can always keep inviting more zerglings until they kill the bosses for you.

    "But omg they're gonna wipe and it will be a horrible experience!"

    No they are not, set ilevel requirements to 880, 890, whatever and they will do just fine. You can easily outgear both those modes just by running WQs and LFR and getting sick titanforged upgrades.

    "But omg skill > gear!"

    If you are not a mythic raider, this statement hasn't been true for many years now. What's the point of keeping overgeared casuals fermenting in LFR when they could be trying harder bosses and maybe even improving their skills?

    "but this will destroy casual guilds!"

    It already has, check any realm and you'll be hard-pressed to find a non-mythic raiding guild. Actually if anything, this will help mythic guilds as they'll have more relatively well-geared people to recruit.

    Hell you could even enable LFR for mythic and people would still kill bosses. Sure, mythic Skorpyron would destroy them at first, but in a few weeks only the most dedicated would still be attempting him and they might even improve to the point they're able to get a kill.

    "But omg no communication!"

    Simple, Blizzard uses their funds to create an in-house voicecom and integrate it into the game.

    This is coming from a mythic raider who wants to hit queue button and faceroll normal and heroic instead of applying to dozens of groups in LFG.
    We had the same argument about queeble mythic dungeons months ago. It is simply impossible. I don't blame you for not seeing this, it took Blizzard several years to understand that matchmake instance must be easy for intended item level.

    1)There is no leader in matchmaked group, person that pick players looking at:

    a) their gear (and he has ability to look at their actual equipped gear, not only item level in bags)
    b) team composition - matchmake only recognize tank/heal/dps
    c) their experience. you must follow basic mechanics, even if you massively outgear the content, in organized group leader know that group will stick together after wipe and learn the tactic eventually, that's why in group finder leaders only accept people with Curve - they know that pug usually collapse after wipe, so he must to be sure that group already know how to beat boss
    d) finally, leader can look at everyone performance and kick people that are trolling or simply are unable to beat content; it's brutal, but sometimes it's the only option.

    2) This community mentality. Sometimes one minor change can cause hundred pages of whining. I think two things could happen:

    a) if dungeon/raid need any form of coordination, it will fall massively in matchmake system, people will ask for nerfs and they will get them (it happened in Cata); imagine that: even in LFR we have determination buff, would you want this in normal/heroic?
    b) if you could que with much more ilvl (honestly in this case it must be at least 20-25 more than reward...), people will whine that rewards are too small, "there is no reason to go there", "no one want to go to this fuckin dungeon, buff rewards Blizzard". And guess what - they would have to buff rewards, even if they don't want to do it. Remember flying in WoD? It is obvious that they didn't want to enable it even after 6.2, but outrage was simply too big.

    3) Whole content structure. Huge leap between difficulties is simply bad design. Finding group ON YOUR OWN is also part of challenge.

    For example, you are fresh player, that play WoW endgame first time.
    a) In heroic dungeon, you don't have to stress about anything, game will pick players for you, and your performance didn't really matter.
    b) Mythic dungeon is still not punishing for even large mistakes, but game tell you: "ok, let go mommy's hand and try to make few steps on your own" - and you have 3 ways to do it: find guild/experienced friend, outgear content via world quests and apply in group finder, make your own group, so you learn in the same time how to be leader. Sadly many players ignore all 3 choices and go whine to forums like this.
    c) In Mythic+ we have time limit and challenge increase every level. Going here directly from heroic dungeon would be very bad for new player - he doesn't know how to beat challenge and he doesn't know how to find a group - because game did it for him before.

    Finally, I agree with many others, that matchmake and instant portal to instances really hurt game in the past. It's sad that many new players very often didn't even know where some dungeons that they beat countless times are located. Separating easy dungeons/raid that can be done in LFG/LFR from more challenging mythic+ and normal+ raids was great decision. Funny that we have this thanks to WoD and 6.2 mythic dungeons ;P.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulForge View Post
    I would argue the opposite is true. When someone initiates a vote kick people just vote yes to clear the prompt.
    Vote kicks don't get initiated. The attitude is "Its only LFR, who cares". People are so fucking useless that you can hardly get 5 people to even right click on some bads portrait. They would rather carry 6 people doing less than 100k then clear them out and get others in. This is the reason why we cannot have nice things and we will never have random queues for anything harder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    We had the same argument about queeble mythic dungeons months ago...
    You may have had this "argument" months ago but it isn't the same one. Mythics should have random queues. This is a no-brainer. The lockouts should also be reduced to daily. Why wouldn't you. They are a direct replacement for Heroic Dungeons. Blizzard have said this. Mythic = Heroic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #11
    Sure, putting LFR randos into a heroic raid wouldn't be pure cancer at all.

    Great idea OP.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Berengil's Avatar
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    What would be bad about it?

    Wipe x 126124651254124512461254124937587

    That's what. And I'm a strong supporter of current lfr.
    " The guilt of an unnecessary war is terrible." --- President John Adams
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You may have had this "argument" months ago but it isn't the same one. Mythics should have random queues. This is a no-brainer. The lockouts should also be reduced to daily. Why wouldn't you. They are a direct replacement for Heroic Dungeons. Blizzard have said this. Mythic = Heroic.
    Sure, screw "arguments", give me free stuff! Mythic=Heroic, but which heroic? BC? WoTLK? Cata pre-nerf? Cata post nerf? MoP? WoD? I think current Legion heroic are same as MoP ones, and current Mythic are definitely harder (for intended item level, of course) than WoD. I remember that they were really problematic for in group finder first week, when my group was around 820.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral khazmodan's Avatar
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    yes, yes, we should definitely take all the horrible parts of apathy, anonymity, trolling, and constant complaining and apply it to the other levels of raiding....

  15. #15
    They tried having super nerfed but could still hurt you mechanics in MoP...

    Nazgrim says never again.

  16. #16
    Have you ever seen constructive criticism in LFR? If something goes wrong the only thing you see is insults left and right. Now imagine even normal mode with truly random raid were it is to be expected that pretty much any non-tank'n'spank boss will have a wipe or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Both normal and HC are already extremely easy
    For you. For every mythic raider. For most heroic raiders. But normal an HC are not even remotely easy for most players. Look up "Egocentrism".

  17. #17
    Honestly I really want to see it in action live.
    Hi Sephurik

  18. #18
    The community has willingly convinced itself that difficulties above LFR/current 5 man heroic are impossible to tackle with PUGs. It's more convenient than being willing to budge an inch and being truly constructive instead of labeling anything that doesn't share one's own approach as unconstructive.

    Through this attitude, the initial claim becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  19. #19
    It wouldn't be faceroll and it would probably be a disaster....

    That being said, I still think they should do it.

    Make it a "take it or leave it" type thing.

    Sort of: "we are enabling it, but we bear no responsibility for what happens in there..." Also, none of that buff that players get in LFR when they wipe (forget what they call it).

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Berengil View Post
    What would be bad about it?

    Wipe x 126124651254124512461254124937587

    That's what. And I'm a strong supporter of current lfr.
    And?

    If players wipe a million times who does that hurt other than those wiping? If I'm prepared to do a raid that takes 5 hours to kill the first boss how does that affect you? If you join a normal mode raid, with minimum level requirements, and you can see after the first pull that it's just not going to work out then you can simply leave just as you would in LFR. I'm struggling to see the downside really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    It wouldn't be faceroll and it would probably be a disaster....

    That being said, I still think they should do it.

    Make it a "take it or leave it" type thing.

    Sort of: "we are enabling it, but we bear no responsibility for what happens in there..." Also, none of that buff that players get in LFR when they wipe (forget what they call it).
    You are probably right, more groups would fail than succeed but if a section of the player base are willing to try it then why not.

    I can't join a guild raid group. I despise groupfinder. But I'd be willing to random queue for normal mode dungeons and let the chips fall where they may. But I'm one of those weird rare people that is not afraid of wiping and trying again and again.

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