Is sub fun in Legion?

[elfporn]

you're right, sometimes I also have to press Cheap Shot #LegionSub

this spec is absolute trash compared to what it was at its peak

No kicking? Kidney shot? Blind? Sap? No setting up finality and restealthing for a nightstalker evisc? Wheres your team strategy?

I mean comon, even i know there's a lot more to pvp than the rotation.

My mistake, who takes nightstalker?

[shoegazing]

No kicking? Kidney shot? Blind? Sap? No setting up finality and restealthing for a nightstalker evisc? Wheres your team strategy?

I mean comon, even i know there's a lot more to pvp than the rotation.

it's called hyperbole, genius

also LOL at restealthing for a nightstalker evis. you think people are running nightstalker in PvP? lmfao you're even more clueless than I thought

[Critical92]

Sub's legion playstyle is agressively teleport spam to enemys to cheapshot/kick/kidney them to help your teammate do enough damgage to kill something.
Outside of 1vs1 in an arena game there is no reason to restealth because you can all do this with shadowdance.
Agressively playing even gives you more dances and outside of the 1% top players, bringing the enemys into a defensive play results in a win often.
That's why you see so many DH's rush in burn all CD's and go ham on the enemy.

[Zensunni]

You don't need 'baggage from past experience' to see that Legion Subtlety has been gutted of most of its utility, that there is really no depth at all left outside of the damage rotation, etc

The OP asked "is sub fun in Legion?" and the answer to that question is "not nearly as much fun as it was before Blizzard decided that it needed to be made 'more appealing to a wider audience'" (Celestalon's own words from the alpha forums)

They ruined all the things that made it fun and unique and turned it into just another damage bot for tunneling raid bosses

I can't believe what they did to sub (or UH DK). Those specs were so cool in WoD and had such depth. They had great skill ceilings, particularly sub. I played UH, but truth be told sub was too much for me on my rogue and I performed way better as combat (in PvP), but just SEEING what the spec was capable of and watching the insane shit Pikabu would do was satisfying to me. I was glad it was in the game, and glad really great players had a spec that they could perform miracles with after enough commitment.

Now the two most brilliant specs ever put in the game are husks. I'd say the only brilliantly designed spec in WoW that hasn't been removed is Frost mage (Glad stance warr is another notable casualty).

So no - sub is not fun, once the port gimmick wears off. Indeed, as someone that mained rogue in Wrath, and PvP'd heavily on it in Wrath, MoP, and WoD, I would say that rogue in general doesn't have a noteworthy fun spec. If you like the overall style of it you can enjoy the content, but is the actual class specific gameplay fun? In my opinion no, all 3 specs are lacking in a little depth.

[shoegazing]

Wheres your team strategy?

Team synergy in Legion: "do you have burst? ok stunning him for you"

Also you're acting like Sub has so many things to do when it does: damage, stuns, blind, sap, kick

But compare to what previous versions had: an active burst phase, a setup phase (which plays differently from the burst phase because unlike Legion you weren't just spamming Dances constantly in order to keep generating Dances via deepening shadows), stuns, blind, sap, kick, gouge, garrote, shiv, dismantle, smokebomb, shadow walk, shroud of concealment, tricks of the trade, etc etc

Legion Rogue is 100% mindless and stupid

[ymirsson]

Ok, so you had 14 flavours of CC and that made it magically better?

ALso, there is a word for lifeforms not evolving according to different circumstances: extinct

[Lazuli]

Legion sub is 1/10th of what the spec used to be, just mindless spamming now.

You can now do all the setups you want at any moment but it doesn't feel nearly as good, it felt a very rewarding spec before Legion when you put effort in.

What happens when the stars are always aligned tho? Boring. And our buff and situational requirement only bring us up to par with the damage we should be doing in the first place, it doesn't actually increase dmg technically thus not feeling rewarding.

I miss FW and all the other abilities they pruned... rogue basically died for me in Legion, sub is not the only spec they demolished.

I never saw a problem with pre-legion sub OR combat. Admittedly didn't play mut so..

[shoegazing]

Ok, so you had 14 flavours of CC and that made it magically better?

ALso, there is a word for lifeforms not evolving according to different circumstances: extinct

so spamming stuns constantly is better than having to make a tactical choice about what kind of CC to use?

thanks for sharing your PvP expertise with us btw http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...evement#95:165

lol.......

Sub (and rogues in general) were deadly boring before Legion. That's the only reason I never managed to play one regularly because it was just ughh

opinions are opinions tho

there's your Legion Rogue design in a nutshell

it was designed to be appealing to people who didn't enjoy playing a rogue before, not to be appealing to people who loved playing their rogue for 12 years

sub was a masterpiece and they ruined it to make it more appealing to someone who might play a rogue as their 4th alt. it's sickening

"we want subtlety to appeal to a wider group of players in Legion [and that's why we're removing all the things that made it unique and so loved by its devoted niche audience]" actual Celestalon quote from the apha forums.

it's just ridiculous, combat and assassination were both perfectly 'accessible' to the player base at large, there was no reason to butcher the 3rd spec to make it more accessible when people who wanted simplicity already had two perfectly good choices...

[Kuroii]

sub is ruined and symbols of death requiring to be in SD or stealth is the stupidest thing in the whole spec and making it feel so clunky it could this iteration of sub is the worst out of all the expansions.

[Deleted]

Apm on ass is something around 35.... Sub is absolutely much higher. Youre doing somthing wrong if youre starved of energy as sub.

Even using dfa im not starved, where in ass im regularly doing a cycle where i starve out, then wait a noticable while doing nothing before doing the cycle again.

APM is boring, just makes my RSI flare up.

[ymirsson]

so spamming stuns constantly is better than having to make a tactical choice about what kind of CC to use?

thanks for sharing your PvP expertise with us btw http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...evement#95:165

lol.......



there's your Legion Rogue design in a nutshell

it was designed to be appealing to people who didn't enjoy playing a rogue before, not to be appealing to people who loved playing their rogue for 12 years

sub was a masterpiece and they ruined it to make it more appealing to someone who might play a rogue as their 4th alt. it's sickening

"we want subtlety to appeal to a wider group of players in Legion [and that's why we're removing all the things that made it unique and so loved by its devoted niche audience]" actual Celestalon quote from the apha forums.

it's just ridiculous, combat and assassination were both perfectly 'accessible' to the player base at large, there was no reason to butcher the 3rd spec to make it more accessible when people who wanted simplicity already had two perfectly good choices...

We get it. Anyone not wanting to play the old sub spec to fiddle around in thousands of "smart microplays" in Pvp is a retarded person. So, do you have anything constructive to say?

[shoegazing]

We get it. Anyone not wanting to play the old sub spec to fiddle around in thousands of "smart microplays" in Pvp is a retarded person. So, do you have anything constructive to say?

what is there to say that is constructive in this conversation when you are here arguing with me about Sub PvP despite the fact that you have never even been above 1500 rating? better leave this conversation to those of us who actually know what we are talking about

[ymirsson]

Im not discussing sub pvp, im discussing your attitude and your opinion.

[kalaratic]

the spec is an abandoned kid on the street left by a father who was a controlling, stubborn man-child. keep that in mind if you decide to main the spec, as future changes will be done by a person who doesn't care about your enjoyment of the game, rather just someone who thinks they know best for you.

that being said if you had to pick between a slot machine, a glue eating simulator, and this abomination you should find the most engaging gameplay in subtlety.

[shoegazing]

Im not discussing sub pvp, im discussing your attitude and your opinion.

Oh really? What then is this?

Ok, so you had 14 flavours of CC and that made it magically better?

Because correct me if I'm wrong but that looks like you are trying to argue about PvP with someone who has higher experience on their 10th alt class than you do on your main rogue.

[ymirsson]

If you are not capable of interpreting an argument correctly, then this hread is futile. I sincerely hope you find happiness in your opinion bubble but please refrain from posting further useless drivel. Because the one point you do have - you dislike the current sub iteration - has been repeated to death.

[shoegazing]

the spec is an abandoned kid on the street left by a father who was a controlling, stubborn man-child. keep that in mind if you decide to main the spec, as future changes will be done by a person who doesn't care about your enjoyment of the game, rather just someone who thinks they know best for you.

that being said if you had to pick between a slot machine, a glue eating simulator, and this abomination you should find the most engaging gameplay in subtlety.

ok I got the bit about the slot machine and glue eating simulator, but where does assassination fit into your metaphor? XD

If you are not capable of interpreting an argument correctly, then this hread is futile. I sincerely hope you find happiness in your opinion bubble but please refrain from posting further useless drivel. Because the one point you do have - you dislike the current sub iteration - has been repeated to death.

oh no mr. sub 1500 rating doesn't think my points about subtlety pvp are valid

i must have nothing worthwhile to say if i failed to convince someone with your level of expertise and discernment, haha!

[elfporn]

Oh really? What then is this?



Because correct me if I'm wrong but that looks like you are trying to argue about PvP with someone who has higher experience on their 10th alt class than you do on your main rogue.

We're not arguing about your pvp experience. We're arguing about you flailing your opinion around, trying to bludgeon everyone who likes the spec the way it is into submission by holding their experience (or lack thereof) against them when they express their opinion.

When you get down to it, the way you feel is YOUR OPINION - you're entitled to it, and so are we. It doesn't make you right or wrong: No matter how much you wield your righteous indignation like a weapon against your fellow rogues, it doesn't change the fact that you're just arguing your point of view. I happen to agree with a lot of your points, but i don't worship the past like it's Jesus himself back from the dead.

I should elaborate on what i agree with - i agree that the sub re-vamp wasn't done as well as it should have been.

[shoegazing]

Oh you think it's just me? Let's look at some of the things that have been posted on the Rogue forums in the past day or so

New Rogue specs are meant to be completely different in every way to stay in line with stupid class fantasy. This is why no poisons and openers are completely different.

The specs are also made to entice new players coming to wow, not the ones who have been playing it for many years.

the abilities were pruned and purged from each spec without taking into account how important some of them were such as gouge, poisons, and garrote for silence or a great opener.

So much damage was done to Rogues that I don't know how they will be repaired, only Assassination feels like a Rogue because they have poisons etc.

symbols of death lul great design

The reason I played a Rogue is because, at first, a Rogue didn't wear a heavy armor or throw some cheesy magick at you. The only thing they had was being fast and cunnig and I find that challenging and rewarding.

Now we have a spec with some "shuduw maguc" with the most boring and unrewarding rotation in PvE, and with a fightstyle non-roguish at all in PvP.

I basically just train any target with Mongostrikes and Evis. Like really, any kind of oponent I do the same things over and over again. Like, Mage? Mongostrike Evis, Warrior? Mongostrike Evis, Priest? Mongostrike Evis. I obviously use Cheap or Kidney when needed, apply Nightblade, interrupt cast with kick and use Evasion, Sprint or Shadow Cloak, but at the end, during my stuns, during my evasion, during my cloak, during my Sprint what I'm doing?

Mongostrike Evis.

Cmon.

Blizzard ruined the rogue experience for me

no it's not just me, it's most of us who play a rogue outside of PvE raids, it's most of us who have played a rogue for a long time and enjoyed it just how it was, it's most of us who love PvP and loved playing a class that had more emphasis on utility and control and burst rather than uptime and overall throughput

but instead a bunch of people that might play a Rogue as their 5th alt cried "Blizzard please make the specs more unique from each other!!" and Blizzard stupidly listened to them and ruined the best designed class in the game in the process

the only 2.2k+ PvPers you can find that like Legion Rogue or don't have a problem with it are people who don't main a Rogue or just started playing one. it is undeniable that it has been dumbed down drastically to be made more "widely accessible", Celestalon even admitted this outright in the alpha forum

this class is so badly designed, you can't even discern what audience is actually served by an ability like Shadowstrike? is it for PvPers? PvPers hate Shadowstrike and we want our old toolkit back. is it for raiders? they hate the stupid teleport and all the problems it causes for them. is it for players doing solo world content? they already had the option of speccing into a much better build and more fun to play build with Cloak and Dagger which had a 40 yard range (c.f. 15 yard Shadowstrike range) and applied to Garrote, Cheap, and Ambush (c.f. Shadowstrike only being a teleport ambush).

edit oh look here's some more from the Rogue forums:

Burst of Speed was pretty puke-worthy as a concept, and it needed to go. But now something doesn't feel quite right about 3 charges of shadow dance that pretty much put me wherever I want to go.

It's just.. Not right.
Neither are Monks teleporting across continents.
I'm not even going to talk about demon hunters.
Mobility in this game is wicked right now, in a bad way.

Very little opportunities for punishment.

Rogues were dead on arrival, sadly. The pruning that took place removed all the important parts that made Rogues play like Rogues as a whole.

[Kalador]

Oh you think it's just me? Let's look at some of the things that have been posted on the Rogue forums in the past day or so







no it's not just me, it's most of us who play a rogue outside of PvE raids, it's most of us who have played a rogue for a long time and enjoyed it just how it was, it's most of us who love PvP and loved playing a class that had more emphasis on utility and control and burst rather than uptime and overall throughput

but instead a bunch of people that might play a Rogue as their 5th alt cried "Blizzard please make the specs more unique from each other!!" and Blizzard stupidly listened to them and ruined the best designed class in the game in the process

the only 2.2k+ PvPers you can find that like Legion Rogue or don't have a problem with it are people who don't main a Rogue or just started playing one. it is undeniable that it has been dumbed down drastically to be made more "widely accessible", Celestalon even admitted this outright in the alpha forum

this class is so badly designed, you can't even discern what audience is actually served by an ability like Shadowstrike? is it for PvPers? PvPers hate Shadowstrike and we want our old toolkit back. is it for raiders? they hate the stupid teleport and all the problems it causes for them. is it for players doing solo world content? they already had the option of speccing into a much better build and more fun to play build with Cloak and Dagger which had a 40 yard range (c.f. 15 yard Shadowstrike range) and applied to Garrote, Cheap, and Ambush (c.f. Shadowstrike only being a teleport ambush).

edit oh look here's some more from the Rogue forums:

you're rogue spec is dead.... it's never coming back...

https://youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU

now stop acting like a freaking elitist know it all and let people who can actually take changes and not cry about it for 9 month enjoy what is probably one of the best expac blizz release.