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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    So it'll take you about 5 weeks to be properly ready starting from fresh? I guess that seems like a lot in the "now now NOW!" age ^_^
    It's been faster than this in every other expansion to date. Hitting max-level, with a few friends (in a geared guild) to quickly equip you took a max of maybe 2-weeks (see: WoD and previous)

    Previously the only 'roadblocks' was the amount of time you were willing to grind certain dungeons for certain pieces + farm raids with a geared guild.

    Now you have artificial roadblocks such as AP (time-gated) and Legendaries (luck + time gated). GL trying to do Krosus as a DH without Ring or Shoulders.

    Nobody is saying you should be able to run Mythics within 1 week. But artificial time-gating is stupid and serves no point.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Astigmatizm View Post
    It's been faster than this in every other expansion to date. Hitting max-level, with a few friends (in a geared guild) to quickly equip you took a max of maybe 2-weeks (see: WoD and previous)

    Previously the only 'roadblocks' was the amount of time you were willing to grind certain dungeons for certain pieces + farm raids with a geared guild.

    Now you have artificial roadblocks such as AP (time-gated) and Legendaries (luck + time gated). GL trying to do Krosus as a DH without Ring or Shoulders.

    Nobody is saying you should be able to run Mythics within 1 week. But artificial time-gating is stupid and serves no point.
    There were legendary cloaks in MoP and a ring that had a ludicrous increase in power in WoD (from 735 ilevel to 795).

    The cloak was gated behind lots of quest chains where you had to collect widgets for weeks and the ring was a 20 week process. So tell me again how you could be up to speed in 2 weeks? You couldn't.

    Time gating has always been a thing. MoP he would have lost out on a melee cleave cloak (that was quite easily 5-10% of your damage). In WoD he would have lost out on an extremely powerful dps boos from the ring. Why is whats happening now seen as new and different?

  3. #23
    This isn't a concept Legion introduced.
    In WoD it was your legendary ring and returning players were limited by the entire questline to unlock as well as your weekly +3 upgrades from Archimonde. Yes they later made it so you could speed it along with valor upgrades but prior to that it was at least 20+ weeks to max your ring just from that stage alone.
    In MoP you had your legendary cloak which also was an incredibly long time-gated quest chain.

    In Legion the only thing limiting players from capping their artifact weapons is either AK level or their lack of putting in effort. There is no cap to how much AP you can farm a week so if a player really wanted to max their weapon in a very short time it is entirely possible. Same for gearing in general, you can run as much M+ as you want for gear upgrades during a single week.

    The only negative difference is that NH is less about gear and more about skill. This is a reality players don't want to admit. If they're wiping or not progressing it has less to do with lack of preparation and more to do with lack of execution. Players are expecting to trivialize NH with gear and it's not going to happen at least till 7.2 traits make it more of a possibility.

    edited: grammar

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Astigmatizm View Post
    Nobody is saying you should be able to run Mythics within 1 week. But artificial time-gating is stupid and serves no point.
    Except that' what people ARE saying. Look at OP... they don't want to be just OK to start in mythic, they want to be dinged, geared and at a level to do M Krosus in a couple of weeks. They view a couple of weeks as OK but longer as terrible.

    Where the two sides disagree is on whether there should be some effective penalty for not playing for months and then wanting to raid. I think there should but it shouldnt be so extreme that it means you cannot raid that expansion. 4-8 weeks doesn't feel bad to me at all, especially since you don't need to be at 54 traits for the front half of NH Mythic at all. Sure, it's nice.... but if your raid won't take you because you're at 40 vs 54? Uh... that's an issue with your raid.

    Again, everyone knew about AK and AP early on. Even if someone couldn't play much, they could have subbed, got to 110 and started leveling AK up at the very least.
    Last edited by clevin; 2017-03-21 at 04:17 AM.

  5. #25
    Also, let's explore this one returning player doesn't have a maxed weapon scenario. So one dps out of 14 (2/4/14) is doing 14.5% less damage than they're capable of. In a perfect every dps does the exact same damage world then each dps comprises 7.14% of the boss's total health. So one person doing 14.5% less damage is now doing 6.105% of the boss's health. So if you're having a 1% wipe then yes that player with their non-maxed weapon held you back. Otherwise the non-maxed weapon isn't the problem.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    There were legendary cloaks in MoP and a ring that had a ludicrous increase in power in WoD (from 735 ilevel to 795).

    The cloak was gated behind lots of quest chains where you had to collect widgets for weeks and the ring was a 20 week process. So tell me again how you could be up to speed in 2 weeks? You couldn't.

    Time gating has always been a thing. MoP he would have lost out on a melee cleave cloak (that was quite easily 5-10% of your damage). In WoD he would have lost out on an extremely powerful dps boos from the ring. Why is whats happening now seen as new and different?
    How much did you have to log on each day to eventually earn that cloak/ring? Typically 1-2 raid days in order to collect the pieces (and maybe do some dungeons before that).

    Legion requires that you're on every day, grinding AP, grinding the chances for Legendaries - in order to be viable for Mythic.

    Half the people I know full cleared the last 2-3 expansions worth of mythic(or heroic at the time) and they only logged on 2-3 times a week.

    There are people out there with 6-7 Legendaries that are essentially useless if they don't have the BiS one (See: Paladins, DH's, and more)

    It's been what, 5+ months since Legion released? Each ring/cloak segment took CONSIDERABLY less time (and it was guaranteed, not RNG as Legendaries are)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yot View Post
    Also, let's explore this one returning player doesn't have a maxed weapon scenario. So one dps out of 14 (2/4/14) is doing 14.5% less damage than they're capable of. In a perfect every dps does the exact same damage world then each dps comprises 7.14% of the boss's total health. So one person doing 14.5% less damage is now doing 6.105% of the boss's health. So if you're having a 1% wipe then yes that player with their non-maxed weapon held you back. Otherwise the non-maxed weapon isn't the problem.
    He is talking about Krosus and beyond (all bosses past Trilliax).

    These bosses, Krosus especially - have insane and tightly tuned DPS checks. Most guilds that have him on 'farm' still kill him within 15s of Enrage. You need only watch Preach's video on Nighthold kill times to show that the kill times barely move due to the tuning.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Astigmatizm View Post
    How much did you have to log on each day to eventually earn that cloak/ring? Typically 1-2 raid days in order to collect the pieces (and maybe do some dungeons before that).

    Legion requires that you're on every day, grinding AP, grinding the chances for Legendaries - in order to be viable for Mythic.

    Half the people I know full cleared the last 2-3 expansions worth of mythic(or heroic at the time) and they only logged on 2-3 times a week.

    There are people out there with 6-7 Legendaries that are essentially useless if they don't have the BiS one (See: Paladins, DH's, and more)

    It's been what, 5+ months since Legion released? Each ring/cloak segment took CONSIDERABLY less time (and it was guaranteed, not RNG as Legendaries are)

    - - - Updated - - -



    He is talking about Krosus and beyond (all bosses past Trilliax).

    These bosses, Krosus especially - have insane and tightly tuned DPS checks. Most guilds that have him on 'farm' still kill him within 15s of Enrage. You need only watch Preach's video on Nighthold kill times to show that the kill times barely move due to the tuning.
    I've seen that video and I disagree off personal anecdotal evidence. If the first time you kill a boss and you disenchant every single drop from it then I could agree because there is no change in gear from first kill to next kill. Otherwise if gear improvements happen at all then kill times will decrease. There are many other areas I disagree with his video but many of them have been covered in the thread dedicated to it.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Yot View Post
    I've seen that video and I disagree off personal anecdotal evidence. If the first time you kill a boss and you disenchant every single drop from it then I could agree because there is no change in gear from first kill to next kill. Otherwise if gear improvements happen at all then kill times will decrease. There are many other areas I disagree with his video but many of them have been covered in the thread dedicated to it.
    You're free to disagree using your own anecdotes. Anyone is. Though this is the first expansion that top-end guilds have been quitting in droves, while many voices in the community are voicing as to why this is (Asmongold, Preach, other high-end raiders).

    We obviously don't have Blizzards data to make objective views on things.

    But for most guilds - to be able to -kill- Krosus and beyond - the raid needs to have the Average Ilvl of the gear that the Boss itself drops. At which point - the gear is largely useless (outside of Tier, but even THAT can warforge/titanforge)

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Astigmatizm View Post
    How much did you have to log on each day to eventually earn that cloak/ring? Typically 1-2 raid days in order to collect the pieces (and maybe do some dungeons before that).

    Legion requires that you're on every day, grinding AP, grinding the chances for Legendaries - in order to be viable for Mythic.
    This is just a wha. AS in "Wha, I can't just login for raids 2x a week, I need to do other stuff!" And AGAIN, this is all stuff that was known since launch. Some who sat out the last several months not even accumulating AK SHOULD be behind those of us who actually worked a bit.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Astigmatizm View Post
    You're free to disagree using your own anecdotes. Anyone is. Though this is the first expansion that top-end guilds have been quitting in droves, while many voices in the community are voicing as to why this is (Asmongold, Preach, other high-end raiders).

    We obviously don't have Blizzards data to make objective views on things.

    But for most guilds - to be able to -kill- Krosus and beyond - the raid needs to have the Average Ilvl of the gear that the Boss itself drops. At which point - the gear is largely useless (outside of Tier, but even THAT can warforge/titanforge)
    I'm not going to disagree that many are quitting in droves. I disagree with the premise that a single returning player is the reason a guild doesn't get a kill because they don't have a maxed weapon or don't have a bis legendary. I disagree that it takes longer in Legion for a returning player to get caught up for mythic raiding than it did in MoP or WoD.
    If everyone can agree that M NH bosses are tightly tuned for dps checks and that the raid hasn't been overly nerfed to the point of facerolling it then we're on the same page. If we can agree that 7.2 is coming within the next 2-4 weeks which will give someone at 36 traits +0.5% more damage than someone at 54 traits today then we're on the same page. If we can agree further weapon traits will passively nerf NH giving quicker kill times and allowing for more mistakes and more traditional farm content then we're on the same page. Then we can also agree that this returning player scenario is largely moot because no one is expecting 7.2 to take 9 weeks to go live from today so any returning player will automatically take less time than that to be able to go to M NH.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Astigmatizm View Post

    He is talking about Krosus and beyond (all bosses past Trilliax).

    These bosses, Krosus especially - have insane and tightly tuned DPS checks. Most guilds that have him on 'farm' still kill him within 15s of Enrage. You need only watch Preach's video on Nighthold kill times to show that the kill times barely move due to the tuning.
    That's kind of my problem with OP. They want to catch up to the very tip top of DPS... without doing much and in a couple of weeks. Why wouldn't that system make the people who've done all of the work for weeks and months pissed off? Fuck, if I can do that, why play until all of the raids are out? Just wait, catch up in a couple of weeks, do all o the raids, and you're done. No need to spend time playing for the first 3 patches... in fact doing so is a fool's game.

  12. #32
    How is this any different than before? If you're just starting the game back up now, you're going to be behind in gear as well as AP. If you join a guild that carries you and funnels you gear, than your missing AP is pretty irrelevant for the 2-3 weeks it would take to max out your AP.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Fazzel View Post
    Another case: Our Feral Drood wants to reroll on his monk. We would like to make this change as soon as we can but yet again: fuckin artifact power blocks us from doing this. I had to told him, that hes stuck on his druid till the next raidtier comes out.
    You see, you state the impossibility to reroll as a fact, so let me show a case of my own:
    Our maintank played his warrior for a majority of this expansion, up till 7/10 mythic. Then decided to reroll druid at the beginning of February. He leveled it up, farmed some dungeons and the original assumption was that he would still finish Nighthold on his warrior.
    Around mid February he actually decided to reroll for the end of Nighthold instead. He did mythic EN and heroic NH on his druid to gear it up and on February 22nd recleared 7/10 mythic Nighthold and by now finished Elisande and Gul'dan progression with it.

    Somehow "the impossible" was done in 3 weeks.

  14. #34
    How is that any different from what we had before?

    I doubt anyone would have taken you to a progress-raid on gorefiend mythic in HFC 2 weeks after you returned to the game...
    Except for when the boss was already on farm... which is bound to happen once more guilds get Krosus on farm.

    The difference now is just:
    Before it was harder to prove someone who claimed to be hardcore wrong.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by west23 View Post
    In order to get that many you'll need to do 3-4 world quests every day.
    Surely noone is that hardcore.

    Quote Originally Posted by west23 View Post
    Now I can Raid and not be a burden to my raid, right? Well, not quite. You are still missing 9.5% dmg from your artifact traits. Let's say you need 50 traits to not be a burden.
    On a more serious note: this is nothing new. In fact, there were only two expansions where you could "instantly" catch up: WotLK and Cataclysm.

    Before that, you were gated behind attunements and low raid drops chances to gear up quickly.

    In MoP, there was a legendary quest chain for the cloak which took months to complete. Without it, your throughput was too low to help your guild on a gear-check type encounter.
    In WoD, there was the ring (same thing).
    In Legion, there is the AP farm.

    All act as the same type of time consuming gate to unlock a decent dps/healing/survivability increase.

    Now, you may dislike this, that's fine. I'm just surprised that people are suddenly realizing that they dislike it now, even though same general idea has been in the game for almost 5 years (MoP launched in 2012).

    If anything, the AP version allows for brute-forcing the process much faster if someone wants to really be hardcore.
    Last edited by Meiffert; 2017-03-21 at 09:24 AM.

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiffert View Post
    You see, you state the impossibility to reroll as a fact, so let me show a case of my own:
    Our maintank played his warrior for a majority of this expansion, up till 7/10 mythic. Then decided to reroll druid at the beginning of February. (...)

    Somehow "the impossible" was done in 3 weeks.
    The "impossible" in this case was changing from one of the worst tank classes to the undisputed best. This gives you a lot more leniency than switching dps classes - especially since tank Paragon traits and legendaries aren't nearly as important.

    Other than that - half of this thread seems to be "I went through all this crap, so will you!"
    Last edited by KaPe; 2017-03-21 at 10:51 AM.

  17. #37
    It was worse in WoD with the ring, timegated catchup that you couldn't nolife 24 hours a day. The alt catchup guranteed drops didnt help that much either.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    The "impossible" in this case was changing from one of worst tank classes to the undisputed best. This gives you a lot more leniency than switching dps classes - especially since tank Paragon traits and legendaries aren't nearly as important.
    One could argue that switching from a feral can't be much worse than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Other than that - half of this threads seems to be "I went through all this crap, so will you!"
    Maybe so, although I see it more as: this is what WoW (and RPGs in general) are about and it has always been the case. You play a character, you increase your characters power as you play the game. Some of the things you do take skill, some take time, most take a bit of both.

    There are plenty of good games that are about skill only, but MMO RPGs probably aren't among them. I don't think there is much that can be done about it without drastically changing the genre.

  19. #39
    People are now holding up the MoP / WoD legendary system as an example to defend Legion design decisions? Good grief, whatever next.

    Apart from anything else, MoP / WoD legendaries didn't require anywhere near the same level of actual time investment to 'catch up' even if they were theoretically more heavily time-gated.

    They also weren't anywhere near as essential to required performance level as the current need for legendaries and high traits.

  20. #40
    Blizzard is just slowly preparing the game for F2P switch. We had in game shop for sometime now, we can boost characters to high level, we can buy gold. Now we have a grindfest. The next step is F2P with Premium (subscription) accounts and AP/Resources/Gear/Mounts/Pets/Appearances/Transmog Loot boxes in the shop for Real Money.

    You can mark this post for future reference to the awesomeness of my nostradamusness.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2017 - that's two-zero-one-seven, as in the 21st Century - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

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