The "perfect" opener

[Deleted]

Hey folks...

i am wondering what would be the best opener for us. I have read many threads, guides and logs, but the only consistent point is that everbody does it different

Following pre-conditions:

Lust on Pull.
Top Legendaries, so i assume Cloak+Belt.
Arcane Torrent available.
Specced into LV - TFoJ - BL - DH - EfE - DI - C
4T19
Pure ST damage important.

First question: Pre-Pot. Do we want Old War or Prolonged Power? Many guides say, we should use prolonged on pull, old war infight. Many top parses use old war two times. Are there any pre-conditions that make a difference or is there "the answer"?

Second question, HoPo. Getting as fast as possible into crusade is good. But is it best? With old war you waste dps every second you're not in crusade, that's why we use the second pot after 5-7 seconds after the use of another crusade infight - right?

Fastest way i guess would be AT before pre-pot, then pot, then DH when engaged and judge while moving in - crusade and start normal rotation. Problem here: When do we get the 2 HoPo from DH exactly? Using DH in dalaran will not give you any HoPo, right? When does it give you HoPo in a bossfight?

Why is it that important to get into crusade asap? What's the difference compared to a "normal" pull, wait until we have 5 HoPo, wait for judgement being off cd and then start the crusade with judgement and 5 HoPo?

[Cazz17]

Hey folks...

Fastest way i guess would be AT before pre-pot, then pot, then DH when engaged and judge while moving in - crusade and start normal rotation. Problem here: When do we get the 2 HoPo from DH exactly? Using DH in dalaran will not give you any HoPo, right? When does it give you HoPo in a bossfight?

When it damages a mob

[Reith]

Prolonged to start is the monetary choice because prolonged is significantly cheaper and if you happen to wipe before using your old war then you saved gold, but obviously don't bet on wiping lol. If gold is not a concern, then old war twice because it is marginally better to use it at the start as well.

[Deleted]

When it damages a mob on use, or will it generate HoPo while active and first hit a mob?

I could bet i read "use DH while moving to the mob" - but i cannot find the source any more.

[Reith]

Even if you use DH 5 seconds before you pull (as an example), the first time it damages a target, you get the 2HP.

[Highlord Clemery]

Why is it that important to get into crusade asap? What's the difference compared to a "normal" pull, wait until we have 5 HoPo, wait for judgement being off cd and then start the crusade with judgement and 5 HoPo?

It can definitely be situational, but I would choose popping Wings at the beginning of the fight to get as many Wings as I possibly can throughout the entire fight.

Granted, to get everything ready only seems like it would be about 10 seconds, so my previous statement now has no weight. lol

[Deleted]

W/e we all know one thing that does not depend on relics, flasks or talent choices : Raid member dies on pull the best opener

[Deleted]

optimisation depends on encounter (mechanics/phases and esp. length) and raid-dps.

with OP conditions: DH (asap off cd), prepot (at 1), J, CS, Crusade+Shield+TV Makro (first r off gcd)

y not build 5hp before Crusade? BL, Crusade Haste gain, DH will be off cd after CS following Crusade/TVMakro


sometimes these marginal gainz matter, ever whiped with 100k boss hp left?

[Piwielle]

Why is it that important to get into crusade asap? What's the difference compared to a "normal" pull, wait until we have 5 HoPo, wait for judgement being off cd and then start the crusade with judgement and 5 HoPo?

More Crusade during old war.
And ye, old war > prolonged power as ret, unless heavy aoe.

[AoinoMiku]

1st question: Normally Old War and Prolong for heavy aoe
2nd question: my normal opener is DH 8s before pull if Tier set proc at pull pot, judgment, wings, spend, Wake of ashes, and so on
if no tier set proc Crusader strike, judgment, wings, spend, if the earlier Crusader strike procs Tier set or TFoJ use DH or another Crusader Strike if double proc than spend and Wake of Ashes if it doesnt just go for the normal thing

3th question: u dont really want to have any off time on crusade when it is out of CD and your Oldwar is ticking down and hero aswell

[Rubicon451]

Hey folks...

i am wondering what would be the best opener for us. I have read many threads, guides and logs, but the only consistent point is that everbody does it different

Following pre-conditions:

Lust on Pull.
Top Legendaries, so i assume Cloak+Belt.
Arcane Torrent available.
Specced into LV - TFoJ - BL - DH - EfE - DI - C
4T19
Pure ST damage important.

First question: Pre-Pot. Do we want Old War or Prolonged Power? Many guides say, we should use prolonged on pull, old war infight. Many top parses use old war two times. Are there any pre-conditions that make a difference or is there "the answer"?

Second question, HoPo. Getting as fast as possible into crusade is good. But is it best? With old war you waste dps every second you're not in crusade, that's why we use the second pot after 5-7 seconds after the use of another crusade infight - right?

Fastest way i guess would be AT before pre-pot, then pot, then DH when engaged and judge while moving in - crusade and start normal rotation. Problem here: When do we get the 2 HoPo from DH exactly? Using DH in dalaran will not give you any HoPo, right? When does it give you HoPo in a bossfight?

Why is it that important to get into crusade asap? What's the difference compared to a "normal" pull, wait until we have 5 HoPo, wait for judgement being off cd and then start the crusade with judgement and 5 HoPo?

To answer your first question: Old war 2 times unless the opening part of a fight is AOE based.
Second question: You only use Old war 5 seconds into your crusade if you have 3 AW relics. if you do not have 3 AW relics, you pop old war when you pop wings. old war outside of wing window, regardless of how little the buff is, is a DPS loss.

I have ring+4 set + belt+TFoJ. my opener is: crusade, prepot, judge, hammer,(if no proc-crusade, if proc-spend) Wrath, spend, spend. IF you can get the judge, hammer, crusade spend, wrath spend, the 4 seconds from the ring will give you an immediate spend right after your first spend following wrath. OR if TFOJ procs you can do the same. but typically the opener is done within 4 seconds so you can spend spend after wrath.

Also, if there is ANY chance of a second add on a fight, DH is better. You say "pure single target" but assuming people soak all pools, krosus is the only one of those in the current raid tier.

[Wutangrza]

You should always cast DH before the start of the fight, even if you waste the HP. If you time it right, it's free damage that you didn't have to spend a global on.

My opener is usually DH at 4s before pull, pre-pot at 1s, J -> Wake -> Crusade -> TV -> CS -> TV -> normal rotation. I have the shoulders though, so I want to maximize the number of TV's I can get in in the wake right before Crusade ends.

If I didn't have the shoulders, I would probably, DH at 8.5s, pre-pot at 1s, CS -> DH -> J -> Crusade -> TV -> CS -> TV -> Wake -> TV -> CS -> TV -> normal

[Nition]

You should always cast DH before the start of the fight, even if you waste the HP. If you time it right, it's free damage that you didn't have to spend a global on.

My opener is usually DH at 4s before pull, pre-pot at 1s, J -> Wake -> Crusade -> TV -> CS -> TV -> normal rotation. I have the shoulders though, so I want to maximize the number of TV's I can get in in the wake right before Crusade ends.

If I didn't have the shoulders, I would probably, DH at 8.5s, pre-pot at 1s, CS -> DH -> J -> Crusade -> TV -> CS -> TV -> Wake -> TV -> CS -> TV -> normal

Why would you pre DH when you use Wake on the pull, thereby wasting 2 HP

[Wutangrza]

Why would you pre DH when you use Wake on the pull, thereby wasting 2 HP

If we're talking about the first example, because it's free damage and off CD before I press it again. I want to Wake the pull because with A2D I want to get my second Wake off with as much time remaining on my Crusade as possible.

In the second example, with no A2D, it's because it's the fastest way to stack Crusade.

[killwithpwr]

If you have 4set - allways use DH 5 seconds before pull, theres a chance you will be able to pull with judegement, immidiate TV and then Wake

[xxcloud417xx]

My opener is usually, pop DH before pull, pre-pot, Crusader Strike/Judgement (this depends on boss distance and how fast your tanks get him positioned, judgement if you're waiting a bit, then CS, or vice-versa if the boss is in range faster) then blow Crusade during your GCD for the last ability (whether that is Judgement or CS) which should have you at 3+ HP to pop a single Templar's Verdict at the very start of wings, then Ashes to Ashes, TV some more and away you go.

Your Ashes to Ashes, with this timing and 6 levels into the artifact trait for Avenging Wrath (so 35sec duration) should make it so you have one last cast of it during the last few seconds of your Crusade and time to TV another 2-3 times (depending on procs). I have the Legendary shoulders, so tht last Ashes to Ashes is really really nice to fit in there.

Also, pots should be old war all the time, if your RL is arguing that prolonged power is good because of the stam boost, tell him you're a fucking Paladin and survival is what you do best. Use your personal CDs you have enough of them. Especially with Eye for an Eye and if you are using DI (I use Cavalier and it's still not an issue for me so)

If you want a reference point of where I'm at for gear just armory Zalein-Thrall (US). Also, this openener (depending on the fight) gets me to capping out my initial pull burst (with a lust/hero) at around 1.3mil to 1.5mil DPS in my current gear.

[Colmadero]

My usual opener is:

Prolonged Power (Old war if Hero on pull) > Judg > Wake > Crusade > TV or DS as needed.

I use prolonged over Old war for the monetary investment and also the fact that PP is 1 minute.

[Kobor]

Just the spells to get 15 stack as fast as possible

DH + CS to get 3 HoPo while you going toward Boss

Crusade+Judgment
first TW

Wake of Ashes to get 5 HoPo
second TW

CS to get 3 HoPo again
third TW

...then normal rotation.

With this was you will not waste Holy Power at start and will get fast 15 stacks Crusade.

[gratax]

Ultimately the "perfect" opener would be
1: Crusader Strike proc from Talent and 4 set everytime
2: Blade of Justic proc from 4 set everytime

[Wutangrza]

Just the spells to get 15 stack as fast as possible

DH + CS to get 3 HoPo while you going toward Boss

Crusade+Judgment
first TW

Wake of Ashes to get 5 HoPo
second TW

CS to get 3 HoPo again
third TW

...then normal rotation.

With this was you will not waste Holy Power at start and will get fast 15 stacks Crusade.

You should never pop crusade with a non-HP spender.

Your opener is also worse than "pre-DH at 8 or 9s, run up, CS, DH (you now have 5 HP on your 2nd global), J -> Crusade + TV -> CS -> TV -> Wake -> TV -> CS -> TV -> normal if you don't have wake. You can essentially start the fight with a free 2 HP.