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  1. #1

    Melee Mechanics in NH

    How does the MMO-C community feel about melee mechanics in NH? I've seen a growing sentiment that the fights aren't engaging enough for melee mechanically. Do you agree with this, or do you feel its no different than previous raid tiers? Chime in below.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Azarak's Avatar
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    While not particularly new, melee for the most part just sit on the boss while ranged actually do mechanics. Certain fights like telarn, they don't have to do ANYTHING other than dodge the solar colapse and dps boss. Tichondrius is like that as well, dps boss, nothing else to worry about really.

    It's kind of annoying as a caster, especially when most ranged have much lower damage anyway so dealing with mechanics makes it even worse. However, as long as fights go down that's all that really matters, so really ranged are securing the kill.
    Last edited by Azarak; 2017-03-26 at 05:35 AM.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by azarak View Post
    While not particularly new, melee for the most part just sit on the boss while ranged actually do mechanics. Certain fights like telarn, they don't have to do ANYTHING other than dodge the solar colapse and dps boss. Tichondrius is like that as well, dps boss, nothing else to worry about really.

    It's kind of annoying as a caster, especially when most ranged have much lower damage anyway so dealing with mechanics makes it even worse. However, as long as fights go down that's all that really matters, so really ranged are securing the kill.
    at least be honest.

    botanist all mechanics except night debuff are shared. melee has to kill orbs and adds too. both have to dodge collapse and chaos, both have to dodge spores while moving.

    tichondrius the only mechanic melee doesn't deal with at all is the green circles, but on the other hand melee often can't dps when hiding behind pillars. on normal and heroic these days ranged can ingore bloods too because melee cleave em in a few seconds. and the plague is actually easier to deal with for ranged the melee due to camera angles and amount of room to spread in. damn sounds like melee actually got it harder on tich oh shit now what.
    Last edited by mmoc982b0e8df8; 2017-03-26 at 06:49 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by azarak View Post
    While not particularly new, melee for the most part just sit on the boss while ranged actually do mechanics. Certain fights like telarn, they don't have to do ANYTHING other than dodge the solar colapse and dps boss. Tichondrius is like that as well, dps boss, nothing else to worry about really.

    It's kind of annoying as a caster, especially when most ranged have much lower damage anyway so dealing with mechanics makes it even worse. However, as long as fights go down that's all that really matters, so really ranged are securing the kill.
    Must suck to have that full screen view. I've always got a fat boss model taking up the majority of my screen littered with other melee.

    Anyway, OT, for the most part mechanics are pretty much shared between melee and ranged.

    Aluriel ~ both run out on mark of frost, both get hit by the fire brand debuff, everyone has to run around during arcane phase, kill adds

    Star Boy ~ both have to run out during icy ejection, both spread fel flame, both stack or run out during the explosions on each phase

    Botanist ~ both prio adds, both dodge the collapse and the purp

    Krosus ~ both dodge the beams, both run into the pitch. Ranged gets hit by the orb but melee must run off the bridge or die

    Trilliax ~ both get cakes, dodge the beam

    Eli ~ both dodge rings, soak orbs, kill adds

    Gul'dan ~ both kill adds, dodge storms and beams, soak souls.

    Same jobs give or take on most every boss fight.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Adp View Post
    Same jobs give or take on most every boss fight.
    Yeah, enough mechanics in the raid to do for melee. It might look like we just tunnel the boss but can't just stand there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    tichondrius the only mechanic melee doesn't deal with at all is the green circles, but on the other hand melee often can't dps when hiding behind pillars
    In my raid the green circles get triggered in the melee camp, that spot seems to be easier to find . Gotta have a look at your health (I raid only HC so no clue about my). Also in last phase melee without debuff help with big adds. You can always throw from behind the pillars and sometime attack if it is near enough to the boss.

  6. #6
    Only last 3 bosses were difficult, so I'll refer to them.

    Star Augur is a tie, all of the mechanics target both melee and rangeds equally. There is a lot of micro movement which melee handles easier than rangeds (except Fel Nova and Icy Ejection), however it is more likely to screw up Conjunction as melee rather than ranged due to melee clusterfuck. Also meteor thingy tends not to spawn in melee which is both good and bad for rangeds. Overall boss difficulty should be tie.

    Elisande spawns Singularity only at rangeds' feet, rangeds are much more likely to soak Orbs in p2/p3, rangeds overall suffer from movement. Rangeds (or tank in some scenario) are more likely to interrupt slow adds, and there are overlaps where using that interrupt properly might be sort of difficult (compared to melee interrupting which is 'press 1 to interrupt' concept). Rangeds are more likely to be hit by random Blasts in p2/p3 ending. Melee have (doesn't rly have to, depends on A LOT of factors) to catch boss in p1 when she does rings, which is sort of difficult. Melee don't DPS when they run away with debuff in p3 while rangeds can DPS. Overall fight definitely harder for rangeds.

    Eyes and liquid hellfires target rangeds which means a lot of dmg taken and movement on rangeds while melee potato around. Bonds are more troublesome for rangeds due to movement liquid hellfire baiting--->get close to boss and two nasty overlaps with liquid hellfire baiting, while melee potato around of course. Both melee and rangeds have to watch out not to step on aggro tank, but rangeds aren't likely to be anywhere near anyway (except some potential moments in p2). Hand of Guldanos spawns on healers, not melee ofc. Anguished Spirits is harder to deal with for melee due to clusterfuck. Melee are more likely to not have range to boss while bonds/winds/storm happens. Flames of Sargeras is more likely harder to deal with for melee because of clusterfuck and losing dps when going out of range. Chaos Seeds target rangeds. Rangeds are likely to lose some DPS when getting close to boss with parasitic wound. Melee has to watch out not to stand in parasitic wound's explosion's range. Melee is much more likely to kill parasites. Mage (ranged) almost exlusively deals with night orb. Soaking bonds depends on group's strategy so can't tell who's fkd up more. Rogues+tank (melee) are more likely to soak soulwell compared to ranged. Rogues (melee) are likely to deal with Severed Soul. Overall melee faceroll, more difficult for rangeds.

    While min maxing and playing to top lv is 'difficult' for both melee and rangeds, raid encounters are designed in favor of melee in terms of difficulty level, with some exceptions depending on class played and strategy used.

    @Him of Many Faces

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=223437/collapse-of-night
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=218807/call-of-night
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=219049/toxic-spores
    Last edited by Wenoxar; 2017-03-26 at 07:55 AM.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Adp View Post
    Must suck to have that full screen view. I've always got a fat boss model taking up the majority of my screen littered with other melee.

    Anyway, OT, for the most part mechanics are pretty much shared between melee and ranged.

    Same jobs give or take on most every boss fight.
    it's fine on the lower difficulties. mythic is basically melees tunnel boss, ranged dps deal with the (added) mechanics.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    really? you include a mythic mechanic and then claim melee doesn't deal with toxic spores?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Adp View Post
    Must suck to have that full screen view. I've always got a fat boss model taking up the majority of my screen littered with other melee.

    Anyway, OT, for the most part mechanics are pretty much shared between melee and ranged.

    Aluriel ~ both run out on mark of frost, both get hit by the fire brand debuff, everyone has to run around during arcane phase, kill adds

    Star Boy ~ both have to run out during icy ejection, both spread fel flame, both stack or run out during the explosions on each phase

    Botanist ~ both prio adds, both dodge the collapse and the purp

    Krosus ~ both dodge the beams, both run into the pitch. Ranged gets hit by the orb but melee must run off the bridge or die

    Trilliax ~ both get cakes, dodge the beam

    Eli ~ both dodge rings, soak orbs, kill adds

    Gul'dan ~ both kill adds, dodge storms and beams, soak souls.

    Same jobs give or take on most every boss fight.
    You forget that melees are punished when they need to move away from target and ranged are punished when they need to move at all. So some of what you listed (Trilliax beam, Krosus beam, purple shit on Botanist, arcane phase of Aluriel) don't punish melees at all, they don't need to stop the damage for sidestepping. Aluriel's marks don't even target melees, same as collapse on Botanist, same as eyes on Gul'dan.
    Last edited by Rogalicus; 2017-03-26 at 08:09 AM.
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  10. #10
    Epic! Fid's Avatar
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    for me playing ranged felt worse in Legion than in any expansion before this. I won't change now I think because I don't have time to invest in a new toon, but if I ever play the next expansion, I won't be playing a ranged dps.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Adp View Post
    Must suck to have that full screen view. I've always got a fat boss model taking up the majority of my screen littered with other melee.

    Anyway, OT, for the most part mechanics are pretty much shared between melee and ranged.

    Aluriel ~ both run out on mark of frost, both get hit by the fire brand debuff, everyone has to run around during arcane phase, kill adds

    Star Boy ~ both have to run out during icy ejection, both spread fel flame, both stack or run out during the explosions on each phase

    Botanist ~ both prio adds, both dodge the collapse and the purp

    Krosus ~ both dodge the beams, both run into the pitch. Ranged gets hit by the orb but melee must run off the bridge or die

    Trilliax ~ both get cakes, dodge the beam

    Eli ~ both dodge rings, soak orbs, kill adds

    Gul'dan ~ both kill adds, dodge storms and beams, soak souls.

    Same jobs give or take on most every boss fight.
    While its fine and all, this is not true. I play both melee and ranged in nighthold, and dear god when I am melee its such a breeze doing bosses in there compared to ranged. I play only heroic modes tho, so on mythic it might be a bit different.

    Aluriel: Frost does not target melee if you have enough ranged/healers.

    Star Augur. Icy ejection prioritize healers/ranged.

    Botanist: Melee does not do adds, and not targeted by the thing that spawns adds. Ranged deal with spores and FoN, we have some times rogues coming out to soak alot of spores with cloak, but not that much really.

    Krosus: Melee can faceroll except when they need to move away from collapsing bridge.

    Trilliax: ranged deal with scrubbers, dealing with sterilize, deal with scrubbers if they explode, during beam melee can keep their rotation up.

    Elisande: ranged soak the orbs, melee on boss/adds all the time.

    Gul'dan: Melee does not do soaking of souls, ranged/healers enough. This so the dps on the boss isn't suffering alot.

    Tichondrius: Melee on boss all the time, both cleave the adds on the boss. Ranged deal with elite adds. The green rune spawns in ranged, and in the end of each phase RANGED need to move to melee to get rid of it.

    And on all bosses, melee can keep their rotation up while moving.

    Really, its okay that ranged has to do more for a raid, don't need to cover it up with non-existant melee-jobs wich is just false.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2017-03-26 at 09:42 AM.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Let loot be loot.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerwilko View Post
    for me playing ranged felt worse in Legion than in any expansion before this. I won't change now I think because I don't have time to invest in a new toon, but if I ever play the next expansion, I won't be playing a ranged dps.
    That's because until legion ranged were just outright superior, and the mantra was 'bring as few melee as possible, ideally 0' for most raid bosses.

    Sidenote: We've had multiple melee get icy ejection at once while no ranged/healers were targeted
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Adp View Post
    Must suck to have that full screen view. I've always got a fat boss model taking up the majority of my screen littered with other melee.

    Anyway, OT, for the most part mechanics are pretty much shared between melee and ranged.

    Aluriel ~ both run out on mark of frost, both get hit by the fire brand debuff, everyone has to run around during arcane phase, kill adds

    Star Boy ~ both have to run out during icy ejection, both spread fel flame, both stack or run out during the explosions on each phase

    Botanist ~ both prio adds, both dodge the collapse and the purp

    Krosus ~ both dodge the beams, both run into the pitch. Ranged gets hit by the orb but melee must run off the bridge or die

    Trilliax ~ both get cakes, dodge the beam

    Eli ~ both dodge rings, soak orbs, kill adds

    Gul'dan ~ both kill adds, dodge storms and beams, soak souls.

    Same jobs give or take on most every boss fight.
    denial on a whole new level. probably the most biased and shittiest post I have ever seen on mmo-c. smh
    Check this out @Adp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias It fits you like a glove.

    Melees do have it very easy in NH, but that is mostly because Blizzard knew a lot of newer and more casual oriented players do play melee and especially the new class (Demon Hunter) so they didn't want to strain melee players too much. It might change with Tomb of Sargeras no idea.

    Blizzard did a lot of stuff in LEGION to make sure melees are going to be invited to raids.

    - Higher damage than ranges. Out of the top 7 damage dealers like 6 are melees. Frost DK, Assa Rogue, Sub Rogue, Fury Warrior, Demon Hunter etc.
    - Mechanics badly designed so ranges are predestined to do them
    - Melees have better defensive cooldowns and higher mobility.
    - Since blizzard introduced yet another melee class, the demon hunter, after they added the Death Knight and the Monk, which makes it 3 additional melee classes compared to classic, they knew a lot of players are going to play melees, because ... well they screwed up by instead of having diversity they choose more and more melee classes. So naturally they have to make melees stronger, easier and mechanics that don't punish having lots of melees.

    Nighthold basically is : Ranges do the mechanics and melees dps the boss. And it is okay that way. I just wish doing mechanics was more rewarding. Like instead of getting a movement speed reduction when eating the cakes they could give you a movement speed increase or super slight damage/castspeed buff.

    It is good this way, because statistically 9 out of 12 classes can play melee, but only 6 out of 12 can go ranged. So every realm has an overpopulation of melee damage dealers. The only way for blizzard to make sure people are going to take melees to raids is to make melees stronger and raid mechanics not affecting melees or designed in a way so that raid leaders don't assign melee players to do them.

    If nighthold actually was as hard on melees as it was on ranged and if melees didn't have higher damage then guilds would prefer ranges over melees and that would create a huge problem with melee players not finding raiding guilds.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    It's the same every tier, some fights aren't as bad melee and some are horrible, people adapt. You gotta understand as soon as your not in melee range, you're not doing any real damage.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dudikof View Post
    It's the same every tier, some fights aren't as bad melee and some are horrible, people adapt. You gotta understand as soon as your not in melee range, you're not doing any real damage.
    I am a melee players myself and it was very interesting for me to find out that range people actually do have to stand still to cast stuff and that moving to do mechanics is a huge dps loss for them and some mechanics even put ranges out of cast range. Crazy!

    You learn something new every day !

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Conflux View Post
    I am a melee players myself and it was very interesting for me to find out that range people actually do have to stand still to cast stuff and that moving to do mechanics is a huge dps loss for them and some mechanics even put ranges out of cast range. Crazy!

    You learn something new every day !
    And as a melee you also learn half your ranged damage are just as much of a dps whore as your melee? No, lies! Carry on finishing your casts please, dps matters.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Sidenote: We've had multiple melee get icy ejection at once while no ranged/healers were targeted
    Thats very weird, never seen that. But if you have, then I won't deny that then

    Guess that could depend on how many groups you make to soak the absolute zero, since Icy ejection targets that group.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2017-03-26 at 10:18 AM.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Let loot be loot.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dudikof View Post
    And as a melee you also learn half your ranged damage are just as much of a dps whore as your melee? No, lies! Carry on finishing your casts please, dps matters.
    I thought only black lives matter. That is what the media told me
    Infracted;
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2017-03-27 at 12:19 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conflux View Post
    I thought only black lives matter. That is what the media told me
    The troll is real, enjoy wasting your day.

  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    NH has this vibe that melee is for dps and ranged are for the mechanics. I've grown used to the 2nd part but the dps part is kinda annoying.

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