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  1. #101
    Okay let me explain how tanking really works in the real life.
    First off you focus on surviving. Some bosses hit tanks for tons of damage every second that requires a lot of mitigation, making you focus on a more defensive rotation. As you outgear the boss or the Raid you take less and less damage, and thats when you start focusing on DPSing since you wont be taking as much damage. Now some bosses barely hit tanks except when the boss is about to use a tankbuster. On those fights, since healers can keep you up without much effort, you should be focusing on a dps rotation. If you dont care about dps on these situations youre just slacking as a tank. Tank dps is a thing since WoTLK.

    Now the dps required for this challenge is pure bullshit because youre supposed to mitigate, interrupt and burn adds asap all that while kitting the infernal and runing for eyes and healing balls. Its really poor designed since some tanks require a target at all times (Blood DKs) to be able to reduce damage they take and heal themselves, not to mention their aoe is stationary if hes not standing on top of DnD he cant aoe.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2017-04-04 at 11:47 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarlol View Post
    It's not just dps, but what people are complaining about is that dps is the most prominent aspect of the challenge, and you can't deny it.
    Damage it's not what tanking is about. A good tank will always optmize damage, but is should be in no way be the top priority. I expected this to be a survival challenge, instead unless you screw up there is really no way to die if not from knockbacks.

    P1 is all about burning voidlings and eyes to optimize damage on inquisitor, and P2 is essentially just a dps race where you must kill Krull before he stacks too much and instashots you. Just because you have to kick regulary and have basic knolwedge of positioning/kiting doesn't mean it's a tank challenge.

    In the end, it's a very poor desined challenge. It doesn't take into account the difference between the various tank classes, and with the current tank balance is not a good thing, especially all that magic damage going around.
    It takes into account the class you play, that's why mobs have different hp and I would not be surprised if they did more damage on some classes rather than others. But I agree that in the end there is not too much difference but I like this challenge a lot even though it's impossible for paladins atm it seems.

    Honestly making different challenges for 36 specs would have turned into a waste of time.

    What did you expected from the challenge? Just genuinely curious.
    They could have made it like the proving grounds but that would have turned into a marathon where you just kite things forever like it use to be.

  3. #103
    How far have you guys managed in the prot paladin challenge? It seems like quite a rough one.

  4. #104
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deliverer View Post
    It takes into account the class you play, that's why mobs have different hp and I would not be surprised if they did more damage on some classes rather than others. But I agree that in the end there is not too much difference but I like this challenge a lot even though it's impossible for paladins atm it seems.

    Honestly making different challenges for 36 specs would have turned into a waste of time.

    What did you expected from the challenge? Just genuinely curious.
    They could have made it like the proving grounds but that would have turned into a marathon where you just kite things forever like it use to be.
    Different hp, again, is a difference focused primary on tanks damage output. Granted I haven't tried it on all tanks, as far as I saw on videos only palas gets an incredibly higher hp on inquisitor, and guardians seems to get a slightly larger D&D pool due to their balance affinity talent (they still can hit inquisitor standing outside of it tho). The rest is pretty much the same on everyone.
    For example like Kendros noted, the scenario doesn't consider that blood has to be in melee range to heal, like at the same time is very poorly designed for wars since 90% of the threathing damage is magical (how this could happen after the harsh feedback from NH is beyond me).

    I really hoped this would be a survival challenge, with proper active mitigaction checks, burst phases from mobs to force cds, proper kiting (in fact I like the mechanic where you kite the infernals on the pool to shrink them) and yes, even minor dps checks on threatening adds. I honesly expected something like the tank phase from the Norushen encounter, or at least some spiced up proving ground with proper dps bots.

  5. #105
    Deleted
    ~50% P1(me personally, but I'm mainspec holy) and there's no point in trying.

    Nobody in the world has done it yet, AFAIK.

  6. #106
    How come a Guardian Druid tip is not on here yet i need that

  7. #107
    Endless 30 was more about tanking than this fight. Velen is useless and the gear required compared to other challenges is stupid. As a brewmaster I don't think I'd be able to do it until I get the chest or belt maybe the trinket.

  8. #108
    If Velen actually did some dps it would be way better

  9. #109
    Tried it as Guardian Druid. It seems like an absolute punishment right now.

    Definitely going to wait until ToS gear, and until they tune (nerf) some of the mechanics.

  10. #110
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deliverer View Post
    It takes into account the class you play
    Only in very lazy and minimal ways. Or in really stupid ways otherwise.

    Bears have a larger aura but loljk don't matter cos Balance Affinity lets you hit from outside of it anyway. Paladins having double HP on everything, despite not doing anything like double the damage.

    Then you consider the mechanics...
    Knockbacks: brutal for classes with slow or limited movement (Paladins, Death Knights), trivial for classes that can charge or glide back into position if they get hit by one (actually, in the DH video he get hit by a lot of knockbacks but lol wings so who cares).

    Adds for some reason will aggro to the tank on every class except Paladin (from what I have seen) which actually have to pick them up off Velen, adding more chaos and running around for a class that already has limited mobility.

    The types of damage you can do to the eyes, and the discrepancy in number and power of abilities that do that damage type: Bears can Moonfire theirs, Paladins and DKs (from what I've seen) have to waste essential spells with longer cooldowns.

    This whole thing is poorly considered trash.
    Last edited by mmoc4359933d3d; 2017-04-05 at 01:46 AM.

  11. #111
    Stood in the Fire Bigcountry11782's Avatar
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    Nice dps challenge...errr i mean tank challenge >.>

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Only in very lazy and minimal ways. Or in really stupid ways otherwise.

    Bears have a larger aura but loljk don't matter cos Balance Affinity lets you hit from outside of it anyway. Paladins having double HP on everything, despite not doing anything like double the damage.

    Then you consider the mechanics...
    Knockbacks: brutal for classes with slow or limited movement (Paladins, Death Knights), trivial for classes that can charge or glide back into position if they get hit by one (actually, in the DH video he get hit by a lot of knockbacks but lol wings so who cares).

    Adds for some reason will aggro to the tank on every class except Paladin (from what I have seen) which actually have to pick them up off Velen, adding more chaos and running around for a class that already has limited mobility.

    The types of damage you can do to the eyes, and the discrepancy in number and power of abilities that do that damage type: Bears can Moonfire theirs, Paladins and DKs (from what I've seen) have to waste essential spells with longer cooldowns.

    This whole thing is poorly considered trash.
    To start, I play both a Bear and a Pally tank, both just over 900 ilvl.

    You make it sound like this challenge is stacked in Bear's favor, when I feel very much that it is not. You say that Bears can just moonfire the eyes, but even at ~905 one moonfire will sometimes not kill an eye, depending on crits, and the eye stays alive for 20+ seconds, as opposed to something like a pally that kills the eyes with important spells but in a few GCDs, so a Bear has to deal with a lot more knockback beams than a pally who doesn't fall behind (to be fair a knockback sucks way more for a pally tank). Adds will aggro to Velen randomly on a Bear too, not just pally, at least a pally can drop a consecrate on Velen for a bit of help. And you certainly cannot DPS from outside the void zone with Balance affinity on a Bear. Balance+Legendary Chest will let you DPS from outside, and Balance+Luffa will let your thrash hit from outside, but that's it. If you don't have one of those two legendaries you have to be in void zone to DPS or kill him with moonfire alone. Not to mention the void zone is HUGE as a bear, but your interrupt teleports you to melee range, and will always result in 2 stacks because of the size of the void zone. This means you have to be really careful with your stacks as a Bear since if you DPS and he decides to life drain before they drop it can lead to a very bad situation. At least pallys have the option of a ranged interrupt. Finally, all of Bear active mitigation depends on actually hitting things to generate resources, while pally only needs to hit one thing to use a resource (and has no resource cost for healing). With the void zone mechanic, you generate such little rage on a Bear until 3+ infernals are up that mitigating his attacks is incredibly annoying.

    Also why is everyone calling this a DPS challenge? The only part that is a DPS challenge is getting the small adds down before they cast their AoE, or before 2 AoEs if you use a healing circle, which doesn't take much gear at all. The eyes don't require any specific DPS, the infernals don't either, and the main boss certainly has no DPS check associated with him. I've had 12+ minute phase 1 attempts with a ton of infernals up testing a moonfire+thrash only strat on Bear, it just gets slightly more annoying the more infernals you have, but it doesn't really make it harder. Phase 2 isn't a DPS check either since again nothing about Kruul makes you REQUIRED to do him fast, just becomes a bit easier if you have the DPS to lust and burn him instead of actually doing mechanics.

    To me the worst part about this challenge is the bugs. Velen not spawning and eating my 100 shards, Kruul not spawning in P2 (god this one can go to hell), getting knocked back by a stupid eye when I am fully facing it, and the damn infernal's invisible knockback smash thing, despite all my changing of graphics settings.

    Also speaking of bugs, is it the same for every tank where when the small adds are disoriented by the circle they take no AoE damage 80% of the time? Is this intended or a bug? Because it is super annoying. Same for when I use Incap Roar on a druid, I can't damage them with AoE attacks until the disorient breaks, only ST attacks.

  13. #113
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    To start, I play both a Bear and a Pally tank, both just over 900 ilvl.

    You make it sound like this challenge is stacked in Bear's favor, when I feel very much that it is not. You say that Bears can just moonfire the eyes, but even at ~905 one moonfire will sometimes not kill an eye, depending on crits, and the eye stays alive for 20+ seconds, as opposed to something like a pally that kills the eyes with important spells but in a few GCDs, so a Bear has to deal with a lot more knockback beams than a pally who doesn't fall behind (to be fair a knockback sucks way more for a pally tank). Adds will aggro to Velen randomly on a Bear too, not just pally, at least a pally can drop a consecrate on Velen for a bit of help. And you certainly cannot DPS from outside the void zone with Balance affinity on a Bear. Balance+Legendary Chest will let you DPS from outside, and Balance+Luffa will let your thrash hit from outside, but that's it. If you don't have one of those two legendaries you have to be in void zone to DPS or kill him with moonfire alone. Not to mention the void zone is HUGE as a bear, but your interrupt teleports you to melee range, and will always result in 2 stacks because of the size of the void zone. This means you have to be really careful with your stacks as a Bear since if you DPS and he decides to life drain before they drop it can lead to a very bad situation. At least pallys have the option of a ranged interrupt. Finally, all of Bear active mitigation depends on actually hitting things to generate resources, while pally only needs to hit one thing to use a resource (and has no resource cost for healing). With the void zone mechanic, you generate such little rage on a Bear until 3+ infernals are up that mitigating his attacks is incredibly annoying.

    Also why is everyone calling this a DPS challenge? The only part that is a DPS challenge is getting the small adds down before they cast their AoE, or before 2 AoEs if you use a healing circle, which doesn't take much gear at all. The eyes don't require any specific DPS, the infernals don't either, and the main boss certainly has no DPS check associated with him. I've had 12+ minute phase 1 attempts with a ton of infernals up testing a moonfire+thrash only strat on Bear, it just gets slightly more annoying the more infernals you have, but it doesn't really make it harder. Phase 2 isn't a DPS check either since again nothing about Kruul makes you REQUIRED to do him fast, just becomes a bit easier if you have the DPS to lust and burn him instead of actually doing mechanics.

    To me the worst part about this challenge is the bugs. Velen not spawning and eating my 100 shards, Kruul not spawning in P2 (god this one can go to hell), getting knocked back by a stupid eye when I am fully facing it, and the damn infernal's invisible knockback smash thing, despite all my changing of graphics settings.

    Also speaking of bugs, is it the same for every tank where when the small adds are disoriented by the circle they take no AoE damage 80% of the time? Is this intended or a bug? Because it is super annoying. Same for when I use Incap Roar on a druid, I can't damage them with AoE attacks until the disorient breaks, only ST attacks.
    your mobs have half the health the paladin one,. give me a fucking break.

  14. #114
    since there's no Guardian Video yet i'll just post mine. There's still a lot of room for improvement from my kill and i'll list a few things here aswell:



    - You can either use incap roar or one of the orbs to interrupt small adds, but don't use it before they start channeling, or just kill the wave fast enough with rage up.
    - You probably NEED either luffa or eko because otherwise even your trash won't be able to hit the boss outside of the dnd, I ran both of them so I could comfortably hit him with swipe aswell.
    - More Guardians ran Incarn over GG because of the dps check p2 is, I chose GG because it made p1 less of an issue and I knew the "dps check" everyone is talking about in p2 isn't that bad because you can even survive the 4th annihilate as seen in the video.
    - You always want to interrupt drain life asap, you can either charge in with skull bash, incap roar it or use an orb, also make sure you don't get knocked back into the dnd which could refresh your stacks.
    - Don't bother with ironfur in p1, just keep up mark of ursol there.
    - A lot of dmg in last phase actually comes from the leap, not the annihilate, you can intterrupt the boss mid-air with incap roar or run out of it very fast with stampeding roar, mitigating this is very important.
    - Use as little orbs as possible during p1, though one of them actually despawned for me once. I'm not sure about the exact timer, probably around 2minutes, but just make sure when you do use an orb you use the one that was spawned first.
    - Use RotS twice in p1 and it'll be up for p2, might even be up for 4th annihilate again if you time it well (which I didn't do)
    - Ideal cd's for annihilate would probably be skin for first, nothing for 2nd, SI for 3rd, SI+RotS for 4th, 2nd skin would just be used for leaps somewhere in between.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Henriksson View Post
    @Hendriksson do you feel the bracers were critical in this encounter? I can get the inquisitor under 30% but usually die to add aoe when I've nothing left to interrupt their cast.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hornfreak View Post
    Nice dps challenge...errr i mean tank challenge >.>
    This. I get further in non set dps gear and trinkets than I do with my tanking gear + 4 piece.

    The biggest thing for me is managing the aoe on the adds. Once I can't interrupt them and kill them in time, I fail the try.
    That is wholly dependent on Sigil CDs and DPS output on adds.

    It's not a test of tanking ability like the MOP trials. Its a test of timing your CC's, moving and, doing enough damage while carrying two useless party mates
    Last edited by Bladeweaver; 2017-04-05 at 06:36 AM. Reason: typo

  16. #116
    Quite a few here are arguing that DPS shouldn't matter as a tank, but rather the tanks responsiblity is to "keep the group safe". Well, if you kill stuff, there is nothing to threaten your group, so I don't understand your argument? Maximize your DPS, kill stuff, and your group will be safer quicker. The best defense is a strong attack, or however the saying goes.

  17. #117
    Deleted
    Hello,

    I'm a 901-903 (depends on the leg. I choose) Blood DK. I really need help in p2. I can't kill the Nether Adds before they start casting and I can't interrupt all of them as well. So sometimes they just kill Kor'vas Bloodthorn and I don't know waht to do. Does anyone know how to finish p2 as a Blood Dk without a reliable stun?

  18. #118
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooy View Post
    Hello,

    I'm a 901-903 (depends on the leg. I choose) Blood DK. I really need help in p2. I can't kill the Nether Adds before they start casting and I can't interrupt all of them as well. So sometimes they just kill Kor'vas Bloodthorn and I don't know waht to do. Does anyone know how to finish p2 as a Blood Dk without a reliable stun?
    Hey,

    I'm a 891 blood dk, I managed to reach P2 multiples time now, after around 80 attempts. (When I don't get hit by a random infernal knockbkack... You know, I ain't DH/Warrior/Druid, I can't ignore mechanisms...) and I've been struggling with the same issue, Kor'vas keep dying by the adds, I tried moving the boss as fast as I can when the adds start incanting, since Kor'vas follow the boss, but it works one time out of 10... You can stop one adds pack with mass grab if you do it at the right time, but that's it. I guess there is two options for us to pass the P2: 1. Get super lucky by moving the boss and Kor'vas will miraculously be out of the adds AOE, or 2. Wait to be 940 ilvl to have some "decent" damage, you know, the damage we don't have and are asking for since legion hit...

    Anyway, keep me in touch if you manage to kill him! Good luck.

  19. #119
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooy View Post
    Hello,

    I'm a 901-903 (depends on the leg. I choose) Blood DK. I really need help in p2. I can't kill the Nether Adds before they start casting and I can't interrupt all of them as well. So sometimes they just kill Kor'vas Bloodthorn and I don't know waht to do. Does anyone know how to finish p2 as a Blood Dk without a reliable stun?
    Hey,

    I'm a 891 blood dk, I managed to reach P2 multiples time now, after around 80 attempts. (When I don't get hit by a random infernal knockbkack... You know, I ain't DH/Warrior/Druid, I can't ignore mechanisms...) and I've been struggling with the same issue, Kor'vas keep dying by the adds, I tried moving the boss as fast as I can when the adds start incanting, since Kor'vas follow the boss, but it works one time out of 10... You can stop one adds pack with mass grab if you do it at the right time, but that's it. I guess there is two options for us to pass the P2: 1. Get super lucky by moving the boss and Kor'vas will miraculously be out of the adds AOE, or 2. Wait to be 940 ilvl to have some "decent" damage (you know, the damage we don't have and are asking for since legion hit...) and be able to nuke the adds before they kill Kor'vas with their aoe.

    Anyway, keep me in touch if you manage to kill him! Good luck.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Only in very lazy and minimal ways. Or in really stupid ways otherwise.

    Bears have a larger aura but loljk don't matter cos Balance Affinity lets you hit from outside of it anyway. Paladins having double HP on everything, despite not doing anything like double the damage.

    Then you consider the mechanics...
    Knockbacks: brutal for classes with slow or limited movement (Paladins, Death Knights), trivial for classes that can charge or glide back into position if they get hit by one (actually, in the DH video he get hit by a lot of knockbacks but lol wings so who cares).

    Adds for some reason will aggro to the tank on every class except Paladin (from what I have seen) which actually have to pick them up off Velen, adding more chaos and running around for a class that already has limited mobility.

    The types of damage you can do to the eyes, and the discrepancy in number and power of abilities that do that damage type: Bears can Moonfire theirs, Paladins and DKs (from what I've seen) have to waste essential spells with longer cooldowns.

    This whole thing is poorly considered trash.
    On my DH I can do physical damage to them. Might be DH specific but I thought maybe you have to face them? And also Judgement should work (magic), Avenger's Shield (magic) and a few more

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