The Highlord's Return Tips

[Dilanru]

Paladin Protection - My best try((( 1nd phase completed, 2nd phase begining....

wwwyoutube.com/watch?v=uEIbscF6O0I

[Gemini Soul]

Velen is totally bugged calling it. 3 Smites after more than 3 minutes, i was doing 1.09M DPS and still couldn't meet the DPS req. Seems that Velen should be spamming smites on the inquisitor while we deal with the annoying trash, but it is bugged AF now.

Pretty sure thats how its supposed to go, we keep aggro on the Inquis +adds while he nukes it down.

[Deleted]

Yeah so what? Being a good tank is maximizing both. The optimal way to do a fight is for everybody to live with exactly zero resources and 1 health. If you live with any more than that then you're doing slightly less than optimal but that obviously isn't something we all strive for. We expend more or less mana than we need, we take less damage than we could, we deal less damage than we should. That's just how the game goes. If your tank is doing nothing but surviving when the entire raid isn't taking damage then he's not playing as well as somebody who says "Fuck it, my healers got me since there's no raid damage. I'm going full damage mode and building up my defensive resources for whenever the damage comes to me or my raid"

We'll have to agree to disagree with each other on this one.

Yes, actually. Usually at the start of fights that are dps checks but have little damage in the beginning (Ursoc, Spellblade, Krosus) we ask our healers to pump out as much damage as possible while healing isn't required. The best healers are the ones that can do that during times where they don't need to heal. You should always be doing something. If you're healing that paladin who is at 90% health because he's the only one taking damage but it isn't even fatal then you're wasting time. If you're sitting there doing nothing then it's even worse.

So do you also measure different healers based on their damage? Do you think one healer is better than another simply because he's pulling more damage?

Nope. Played and raided with a DK since Wrath. Won't change.

I find this surprising given how much you care about damage. Why aren't you playing whichever class or spec that provides the most amount of damage, since it's so incredibly important to you?

[Hctaz]

We'll have to agree to disagree with each other on this one.

But there's literally nothing to disagree with lol. A tank that is surviving, positioning AND doing more damage is a better tank than one who only focuses on the first two. That's just sensible logic

So do you also measure different healers based on their damage? Do you think one healer is better than another simply because he's pulling more damage?

If all things equal then yes obviously. Any player who maximizes their output both in healing and damage is a better healer. If the healer is trying to do damage when he should be healing then he's bad. If a healer is sitting on his ass waiting for somebody to take damage so he can heal then he's also bad but not as bad as somebody who lets people die.

I find this surprising given how much you care about damage. Why aren't you playing whichever class or spec that provides the most amount of damage, since it's so incredibly important to you?

Because it isn't about doing the most damage it's about maximizing what you can do with your class/spec. I'll swap between frost and unholy based on which one is better for mythic progression based on output, utility, and survivability.

The point is to maximize your time and effort, not to push out as much damage as possible at all times.

[Saverem]

Velen is doing nothing in mine. Literally nothing... Am I doing something wrong?

Well you did kill his son in the Exodar after he begged you not to...

[Cazz17]

A tank's job is to protect others so they can do their role (dps/heal). I think Velen is 100% bugged, and he should be doing a shit ton more damage than he does while we protect him

[Deleted]

A tank's job is to protect others so they can do their role (dps/heal). I think Velen is 100% bugged, and he should be doing a shit ton more damage than he does while we protect him

Tbh this is how i thought this encounter would work, after all you have aura which reduces hp, you tank adds and interrupt while velen deals with boss and 2nd phase would reasonably be boss tanking

[Deleted]

But there's literally nothing to disagree with lol. A tank that is surviving, positioning AND doing more damage is a better tank than one who only focuses on the first two. That's just sensible logic

It's about whether or not sacrificing survival for damage is something a tank should do or not. I have to do exactly that on this challenge, using agility flasks rather than stamina flasks (since the incoming damage isn't a problem but my damage is).

If all things equal then yes obviously. Any player who maximizes their output both in healing and damage is a better healer. If the healer is trying to do damage when he should be healing then he's bad. If a healer is sitting on his ass waiting for somebody to take damage so he can heal then he's also bad but not as bad as somebody who lets people die.

But would you ever bring one healer over another simply because they deal more damage? Is the answer the same when it comes to choosing tanks?

Because it isn't about doing the most damage it's about maximizing what you can do with your class/spec. I'll swap between frost and unholy based on which one is better for mythic progression based on output, utility, and survivability.

The point is to maximize your time and effort, not to push out as much damage as possible at all times.

But if you're willing to go the extra mile to maximize your damage, why aren't you willing to switch to a different class if it would provide you with even more damage? If another tank class were to provide 20-30 % more, why wouldn't you switch?

[Hctaz]

It's about whether or not sacrificing survival for damage is something a tank should do or not. I have to do exactly that on this challenge, using agility flasks rather than stamina flasks (since the incoming damage isn't a problem but my damage is).

That's funny. Tanks have been doing that in raids since Cata. Still do, too. My guild's tanks swap to their melee dps specs in order to get agility from the flask cauldron and then swap back to tank spec in order to get the right flask.

It IS about sacrificing one for the other. If you can survive just fine then you should be doing more damage. If you need to spend less time worrying about whether or not you're going to die at any second then you can worry about how to maximize your damage output to help kill bosses faster.

But would you ever bring one healer over another simply because they deal more damage? Is the answer the same when it comes to choosing tanks?

No. That doesn't even make sense. I never said that healers are judged based on their potential damage output versus their potential healing output, just that healers are expected to put forth the effort to do damage whenever they don't need to heal. If the damage is light and the shaman and pally healers can do all the work then your priest and druid should be doing damage until the damage ramps up for them to actually be needed to heal. This is an important aspect of maximizing potential. There's no point in the druid and/or priest to sit around doing nothing until somebody takes a little bit of damage. You should optimize your time. The less time the boss is alive then the less time you need to spend healing.

But if you're willing to go the extra mile to maximize your damage, why aren't you willing to switch to a different class if it would provide you with even more damage? If another tank class were to provide 20-30 % more, why wouldn't you switch?

Once again, never said that you choose the tank spec based on how much damage that they do. You pick the tank classes that are expected to perform their roles well as a defensive spec. It doesn't matter if blood does less damage than Guardian but what does matter is that the tank knows how to balance survival with optimizing their damage output as well. The more damage you can deal as a tank then the less damage your dps needs to meet requirements.

[Volardelis]

Yes it is. However if you want to push high m+ and mythic raids tank dps absolutely matters whether you are bleeding edge raider or not. Any Good mythic raiding tank will tell you this. Along with healer dps being important also on some fights like Krosus since it's a dps check or any boss that has phases. Essentially the more dps you do the less dmg you are theoretically taking because the fight is shorter. Dps is the biggest surivivability.

So by your logic, I should just focus entirely on dps as a tank, since it is the 'biggest surivivability'?

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The point is to maximize your time and effort, not to push out as much damage as possible at all times.

But you and some others keep saying that pulling 'dps' levels of dps is the most important part of tanking.

Which is the main issue of the challenge. We are not saying you should never dps in it, we are saying that the entire challenge shouldn't be a massive dps check to the point where we have to do insane levels of dps (which is impossible as a tank since WE ARE NOT DPS)

If you can't get that through your thick skull, you are no better than a troll at this point.

[LittleLai]

That's funny. Tanks have been doing that in raids since Cata. Still do, too. My guild's tanks swap to their melee dps specs in order to get agility from the flask cauldron and then swap back to tank spec in order to get the right flask.

It IS about sacrificing one for the other. If you can survive just fine then you should be doing more damage. If you need to spend less time worrying about whether or not you're going to die at any second then you can worry about how to maximize your damage output to help kill bosses faster.




No. That doesn't even make sense. I never said that healers are judged based on their potential damage output versus their potential healing output, just that healers are expected to put forth the effort to do damage whenever they don't need to heal. If the damage is light and the shaman and pally healers can do all the work then your priest and druid should be doing damage until the damage ramps up for them to actually be needed to heal. This is an important aspect of maximizing potential. There's no point in the druid and/or priest to sit around doing nothing until somebody takes a little bit of damage. You should optimize your time. The less time the boss is alive then the less time you need to spend healing.




Once again, never said that you choose the tank spec based on how much damage that they do. You pick the tank classes that are expected to perform their roles well as a defensive spec. It doesn't matter if blood does less damage than Guardian but what does matter is that the tank knows how to balance survival with optimizing their damage output as well. The more damage you can deal as a tank then the less damage your dps needs to meet requirements.

'

Everything Hctaz has said in this past and his prior posts is 100% right. tanks and healers should always priortize dmg as long as they are still able to do their job. If a tank does a shitton of dmg and is still able to stay alive then why would anyone think that is worse than a tank who stays alive and does less dps? tanking this expansion has been pretty easy in my eyes(im a prot paladin littlelai@zul'jin), its very easy to survive almost every single fight while specing purely into dps as long as you rotate your cd's properly which i find is where 90% of tanks actual lack. yea very very few fights will require you to swap certain trinks for survivability but tbh thats usually the only thing that hsould be swapped out. i always use a str flask, never ever use a stam flask because im not getting 1 shot so why the hell do i need mroe stam? if im getting 1 shot through defensives then yes i need mroe stamina absolutely but if im not then why would i need more health when i can just do more dmg to the boss and have the fight last shorter which in theory lessens the dps you take. DPS is a lot bigger increase in survivability than most people tend believe.

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So by your logic, I should just focus entirely on dps as a tank, since it is the 'biggest surivivability'?

- - - Updated - - -



But you and some others keep saying that pulling 'dps' levels of dps is the most important part of tanking.

Which is the main issue of the challenge. We are not saying you should never dps in it, we are saying that the entire challenge shouldn't be a massive dps check to the point where we have to do insane levels of dps (which is impossible as a tank since WE ARE NOT DPS)

If you can't get that through your thick skull, you are no better than a troll at this point.

i was doing about 600kdps when i first started doing the scenario then as i learned more and more about it i was getting my dps up to 1.3mil over a 6mins into the fight. maybe some people dont completely understand how to do it yet and i do agree gear is an issue for most people but all in all it really isnt ment for eveyrone to get immediatly on the first time its released. once you are in actual gear that the scenario is tuned for then everyones opinion will change on it and say its super easy cause everyone is gonna be pulling crazy numbers. For the more skilled players the first week is doable but most people just dont have it and cry and bitch and constantly think its not their fault but in reality they are just playing poorly

[Deleted]

To those, who think DPS is the most important thing: I've done the thallange on my warrior without burst dmg (no Avatar/Booming voice/Old war potion).

Here you go, a video (all the info below the vid).
youtube.com/watch?v=27_XXdKscWM

[LittleLai]

@Volardelis yea thats pretty much what im saying. considering i do this every fight. i also have run +14's since 7.2 with 4 dps because it is easier since everything dies so fast nothing does dmg and i can heal everyone or everyone can heal themselves. i play with a good group of people who understand how most mechanics in this game works therefore they can use defensives or i can spot heal them for unavoidable dmg.

[Deleted]

To those, who think DPS is the most important thing: I've done the thallange on my warrior without burst dmg (no Avatar/Booming voice/Old war potion).

Here you go, a video (all the info below the vid).
youtube.com/watch?v=27_XXdKscWM

Good. Now do it on a protection paladin.

[Dilanru]

Good. Now do it on a protection paladin.

I tryed(((

youtube.com/watch?v=uEIbscF6O0I

[Kendros]

And thats is probably why most of you that think dps isnt important as a tank, you cant keep aggro on skittish weeks on M+'s. I dont even main tank but i rarely loose aggro during skittish weeks when im tanking comparing to 90% of the tanks that i have played with as dps during those weeks.

[fadedmind]

I can't view video to good from my phone what Ilvl was he and what was his dps at?

[Matthias]

So by your logic, I should just focus entirely on dps as a tank, since it is the 'biggest surivivability'?

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But you and some others keep saying that pulling 'dps' levels of dps is the most important part of tanking.

Which is the main issue of the challenge. We are not saying you should never dps in it, we are saying that the entire challenge shouldn't be a massive dps check to the point where we have to do insane levels of dps (which is impossible as a tank since WE ARE NOT DPS)

If you can't get that through your thick skull, you are no better than a troll at this point.

No one has said that DPS is the most important part of tanking. However the reality is while you say that "WE ARE NOT DPS" sadly tanking has been so dumbed down that we kind of are just melee that stand in front of the boss. They added active mitigation in MoP because in WoTLK and Cata we just stood in front of the boss and popp'd emergency CDs when things got ugly.

There just aren't many challenging ways to measure how effective a tank is. I mean back in TBC as a Warrior I received so much praise for how much threat I could generate (which was with max tank DPS btw) allowing my DPS go worry less about threat. I was also praised for being able to hold aggro on 4+ mobs, Warrior tanks were very bad at AoE threat, but I could do so with mouse over macros and what not. Hell most Warriors couldn't even stance dance (not sure what was so hard about it).

I mean the WoD Gold Challenge really isn't that hard, I suppose they could amp it up, but once again the problem is you can hold aggro by just breathing on mobs.

[garthvedar]

Hey all,

the challenge has been completed by Lazel (prot paladin) and can be viewed here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VY4XscAZSs

[Deleted]

Hey all,

the challenge has been completed by Lazel (prot paladin) and can be viewed here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VY4XscAZSs

Mere 1.4m dps at the end.

Legendaries used : Legs + Sephuz.
Stats at the time + item level : 913 ilvl , 26.43% Crit, 38.38% Haste, 18.31% Mastery, 6.15% Versa.
Trinkets : 885 memento + 860 Arcanocrystal
Thats some tank worthy gear and stats, youre doing it wrong picking up royal dagger haft.

While the "dps" npc do what?? less than 25k each, i feel like a tank...what was blizzard thinking with this...