Rogue quest OP?

[Blueobelisk]

Team Five is run by a small handful of people. Do you expect the development team, on their own, to postulate every single deck combo that could possibly happen? Because that's crazy. It's the players - millions of them - which work out the combos over time.

79 people is a small hand full? They must have a hard time with all the work they do, putting new cards out once every four months. I'm playing the world's smallest violin over here.

[Nikkaszal]

79 people is a small hand full? They must have a hard time with all the work they do, putting new cards out once every four months. I'm playing the world's smallest violin over here.

Yeah, small handful compared to the collective playerbase

79 people cannot be expected to foresee every single deck combo ever, nor do they set the meta. The players do that. You can't playtest for that with any measure of accuracy.

[Mahourai]

This is the premade deck template for Rogue in Un'goro:



It's barely even a worse build than the final one (the Loot Hoarders are particularly stupid compared to the Firefly package though).

So yeah this deck is almost exactly what they desired and playtested. Even this version of the deck would absolutely clean the fuck up against trash like the Warlock, Paladin or Hunter quests. Testing this deck against the old aggro decks like Pirate Warrior and the emergent quest archetypes should have made it dead obvious exactly what the deck did. Can't call it a surprise.

EDIT:

To be clear, the deck is plainly not too powerful, except in the sense that Blizzard will never allow a combo deck to be any good for long. What I mean is that their testing should have revealed its disparity compared to the other quests, and resulted in a buff to them or a nerf to this card before it saw print.

[caractacus]

I wonder how many people are working for Wizards making Magic the Gathering and how long have they been going for now? They still release broken cards.

[Mahourai]

I wonder how many people are working for Wizards making Magic the Gathering and how long have they been going for now? They still release broken cards.

Wizards did a great job in Standard for 20 years. There have only been three or four degenerate standard environments in that time period that saw bans (Urza's Saga, Mirrodin, whatever era Caw-Blade is in, and the current one).

However, generally, Wizards' mistakes are oversights. For example they mistakenly turned Skullclamp into a draw engine, or they completely missed the interaction between Saheeli Rai and Felidar Guardian that instantly won the game.

In this case, we know 100% that the designers of Hearthstone already knew exactly what kind of deck Crystal Core would create. They printed it as a deck suggestion. If they didn't want this deck to exist, why did they print it? And if they did want it to exist, why is it now nerfed?

[caractacus]

I'm not saying wizards do a bad job my point is nobody is perfect

[Stormdash]

Sad panda... it was as hit or miss as anything else, but a unique sort of puzzle to solve in terms of how to survive and stall opponent long enough to complete quest, play caverns, and get back in control of board. Yes, true, once you got there it was either a one turn kill or a tragic, stubborn, but inevitable grind to death, but it was enjoyable. Went ahead and DE'd it without even trying it at 5, because I didn't want to miss the window to DE it while trying to talk myself into it working well with 5.

Should quests be considered a failure at this point? Are Mage and Warrior the only two worth a deuce at this point in terms of ranking up higher than rank 10 bracket?

[Nikkaszal]

Sad panda... it was as hit or miss as anything else, but a unique sort of puzzle to solve in terms of how to survive and stall opponent long enough to complete quest, play caverns, and get back in control of board. Yes, true, once you got there it was either a one turn kill or a tragic, stubborn, but inevitable grind to death, but it was enjoyable. Went ahead and DE'd it without even trying it at 5, because I didn't want to miss the window to DE it while trying to talk myself into it working well with 5.

Should quests be considered a failure at this point? Are Mage and Warrior the only two worth a deuce at this point in terms of ranking up higher than rank 10 bracket?

Mage Quest hasn't been seen in serious play since, like, half a month after the expac hit.

Quest Priest sees play in Wild, though is still boned by Dragonpriest

[Mahmeya]

Rogue quest was OP, with two shadowsteps, several easy ways to get the 1/2 elementals, potentially brewmasters... far too easy to a minion four times just with these, based on my experience against them. That's not to mention that rogues is the only of all classes that can bypass the 5-mana cost with preparation, which alone was a problem. Playing it at turn 5 with nothing else would make some tradeoff in sacrificing the turn, but prepping it at turn 5 + flooding the board the same turn with 1-cost 5/5s was far too much.

Mage quest might be fun idea, in fact getting spells from somewhere is fun idea, but half a turn (because you need 5 mana to play it) as reward feels underwhelming.
Taunt warriors are too strong as well, was hoping there would be a small nerf too, playing 7 taunts is too easy.

And as for myself, I have around 65% winrate on hunter quest deck in standard casual (CBA to play ranked, chess is faster than that)

[Mormolyce]

Ironically, while the deck was totally toxic the fact is that pure cancer is TOO SLOW for the current meta.

Now it's been nerfed I get to be rushed down by aggro druids, pirate warriors and basic bitch hunters. Who were already faster than quest rogue.

Sigh. Patching one card way too late is not remotely going to fix HS's problems.

And as mentioned, the first iteration of Quest Rogue took everyone by surprise at Ungoro launch, because the community saw the quest as non-threatening. It was Dog's initial list that made people go "ohhhh yeah, that's a thing". I mean, Stonetusk Boars? Who has even looked at that card in years?

Oh come on, the quest has a giant EXPLOIT ME sign over it and using boars with it is obvious.

[Mahmeya]

Now that I think about it, maybe other kind of nerf would work: only turn cards in hand and deck to 5/5, so what's on board does not get buffed, and so it does not include tokens. Guess it's late for such thoughts now...

[Blueobelisk]

it was a unique sort of puzzle to solve in terms of how to survive and stall opponent long enough to complete quest, play caverns, and get back in control of board.

*gives you a stare*

Yeah it took some real effort to decide which of the cards in your hand was going to be the minion to be played four times. skills4days

[Stormdash]

*gives you a stare*

Yeah it took some real effort to decide which of the cards in your hand was going to be the minion to be played four times. skills4days

... or when you had to take a chance and throw that plan out because it was more important to trade the best bounce card in to remove a minion because you were falling behind, etc.

Hearthstone is half RNG anyway, skill checks are moderate across the board. Point was, people whine about quest rogue like it was hardcoded to let you start off with two shadowsteps, a youthful brewmaster, and a firefly; as often as not you were staring at no doubles, not drawing any bounces or even mimic pods for a few turns, etc.

Not for nothing, Quest Rogue also had several weeks of the special thrill of having to avoid using swashburglar to bounce since there was about a 50/50 chance it would bug out and not reward the Core at all. So OP!

[Rennadrel]

For all the QQ about Rogue Quest, it's amazing how no one doesn't think some individual cards like Elder Longneck aren't OP as fuck. A 3 cost 5/1 which can easily Adapt to a 5/4 on turn 2 with Coin is retarded. Maybe it's time to nerf Adapt because as a whole, it's a pretty OP mechanic for decks that use it, Murloc Paladin being one of the most prominent along with Quest Druid (which is kinda potato, but good early game can force a concede by turn 5). Quest Rogue got nerfed so that it takes a turn or two later to get Crystal Core out, assuming you get good draw, but it certainly wasn't OP if you got shitty draw.

[Nikkaszal]

For all the QQ about Rogue Quest, it's amazing how no one doesn't think some individual cards like Elder Longneck aren't OP as fuck. A 3 cost 5/1 which can easily Adapt to a 5/4 on turn 2 with Coin is retarded. Maybe it's time to nerf Adapt because as a whole, it's a pretty OP mechanic for decks that use it, Murloc Paladin being one of the most prominent along with Quest Druid (which is kinda potato, but good early game can force a concede by turn 5). Quest Rogue got nerfed so that it takes a turn or two later to get Crystal Core out, assuming you get good draw, but it certainly wasn't OP if you got shitty draw.

It can also just as easily not get the +3 health buff - it's a 1 in 10 chance - and then gets picked off.

It's a glorified Magma Rager, nothing more.

[Deleted]

For all the QQ about Rogue Quest, it's amazing how no one doesn't think some individual cards like Elder Longneck aren't OP as fuck. A 3 cost 5/1 which can easily Adapt to a 5/4 on turn 2 with Coin is retarded. Maybe it's time to nerf Adapt because as a whole, it's a pretty OP mechanic for decks that use it, Murloc Paladin being one of the most prominent along with Quest Druid (which is kinda potato, but good early game can force a concede by turn 5). Quest Rogue got nerfed so that it takes a turn or two later to get Crystal Core out, assuming you get good draw, but it certainly wasn't OP if you got shitty draw.

Someone calling Elder Longneck OP, this made my day lol.

[Rennadrel]

It can also just as easily not get the +3 health buff - it's a 1 in 10 chance - and then gets picked off.

It's a glorified Magma Rager, nothing more.

If it's a 1 in 10 chance (which I don't buy), how does one get it twice in the same game? That's only a 10% chance to get the ideal adapt buff, but it's less to do with one card and more to do with the Adapt mechanic as a whole.

- - - Updated - - -

Someone calling Elder Longneck OP, this made my day lol.

Good job reading the entire post...nor actually refuting it.

[Deleted]

"it's amazing how no one doesn't think some individual cards like Elder Longneck aren't OP as fuck. A 3 cost 5/1 which can easily Adapt to a 5/4 on turn 2 with Coin is retarded."

That isn't you calling Elder Longneck OP? Though the phrase no one doesn't think is real masterful use of the language. The card is a 3 mana 5/1 with a conditional effect to adapt, and of those adapts half leave you with a card that can be killed by basically any minion. Of the non disastrous adapts the +3 health is the only one that consistently gives you a solid minion in that you get a 4 cost minion with poorly distributed stats.

[shaunika123]

it's not even OP really

the meta is filled with pirate warriors and aggro druids that shit on it

afaik the only reason it got nerfed was so they could give rogue new cool cards without the quest hindering their ability to do so

[Nikkaszal]

If it's a 1 in 10 chance (which I don't buy), how does one get it twice in the same game? That's only a 10% chance to get the ideal adapt buff, but it's less to do with one card and more to do with the Adapt mechanic as a whole.

- - - Updated - - -



Good job reading the entire post...nor actually refuting it.

There's a 1 in 10 chance, because there are 10 Adapts...

Though it may not be exactly that due to the nature of three being presented at once, rather than one option. I dunno, I'm bad at statistical maths.

As for "how does it happen twice in a game" - that's how probibilty works, my guy. Something with a 50% vhanve doesn't mean it will happen once then definitely fail the next time.