Survival Hunter Club [7.2 Spec Discussion]

[madokbro]

Hey guys,

Just got into Legion, and finally got to try out Survival. It's so fun that I decided to main the spec, got a question:

I'm going to be doing m+ dungeons and normal raids, not planning on raiding heroic or mythic. As far as I understand, there are two ways to play Survival, simple and complex. Considering that I'm not going to be doing any high-end raiding, would I be a burden to my teammates in terms of dps if I choose the simpler rotation on icy veins?

[Khrux]

The suggested build for mythic+ on Icy Veins is already the simplified version of the spec.

Level 15: Animal Instincts
Level 30: A Murder of Crows
Level 45: Disengage
Level 60: Caltrops
Level 75: Personal choice / utility.
Level 90: Butchery
Level 100: Expert Trapper

[Paulosio]

Time has told. If being the best-performing and least-legendary-dependent hunter spec for months didn't save the spec, nothing will.

Survival could do with being less confusing and slightly less cluttered (maybe some like it for that reason but it felt a bit of a mess to me when I briefly tried it). It does not need to be made into a ranged spec again.

I feel like the spec could do with losing 1 of it's 2 dots (ideally lacerate would be gone) and maybe 1 of it's melee attacks.

I've played a few of the melee specs this xpac (enhancement, fury and ret) and they were all far easier to naturally work out what you were basically meant to do without having to read tons of guides and spend hours practicing to even reach an average level of performance.

[Tripax]

I feel like the spec could do with losing 1 of it's 2 dots (ideally lacerate would be gone) and maybe 1 of it's melee attacks.

I think so too. Surv is fun but it's also a bit of a mess. It has some abilities that don't feel meaningfull at all.

[Twdft]

Not my main but I have a little fun with survival in 5men. It's a fun spec but I too think either Raptor or Flanking Strike should be deleted/combined, I don't see the point in having both.

I do like the gameplay of keeping Lacerate up and spreading it with Butchery though.

[Karzakk]

Survival could do with being less confusing and slightly less cluttered (maybe some like it for that reason but it felt a bit of a mess to me when I briefly tried it). It does not need to be made into a ranged spec again.

I feel like the spec could do with losing 1 of it's 2 dots (ideally lacerate would be gone) and maybe 1 of it's melee attacks.

I've played a few of the melee specs this xpac (enhancement, fury and ret) and they were all far easier to naturally work out what you were basically meant to do without having to read tons of guides and spend hours practicing to even reach an average level of performance.

So gut the spec and make it retard proof? What a fantastic suggestion.

Leave the spec as it is so people with brains can utilize and enjoy this incredibly fun and fantastically designed spec.

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Not my main but I have a little fun with survival in 5men. It's a fun spec but I too think either Raptor or Flanking Strike should be deleted/combined, I don't see the point in having both.

I do like the gameplay of keeping Lacerate up and spreading it with Butchery though.

You can do the dumbed down version of the spec which does not have raptor strike in the rotation, my suggestion if you can not handle more than 5 buttons.

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Hey guys,

Just got into Legion, and finally got to try out Survival. It's so fun that I decided to main the spec, got a question:

I'm going to be doing m+ dungeons and normal raids, not planning on raiding heroic or mythic. As far as I understand, there are two ways to play Survival, simple and complex. Considering that I'm not going to be doing any high-end raiding, would I be a burden to my teammates in terms of dps if I choose the simpler rotation on icy veins?

You will do more dps with the simpler SV spec than bumbling your way through the rotation with mok'nathal and snake hunter. If you want to top charts that is when you choose mok'nathal and snake hunter, but it makes things much more difficult.

The main thing that confuses people about SV is that usually all your abilities are not on cooldown so you have a choice of like 5 or more abilities you could hit at anytime but there is only one that is most optimal at that second. It is not a "2 button spam spec" or a "hit everything off cooldown and keep slamming your face on the keyboard spec" and that confuses people and therefore they do not like the spec. Very quick thinking is required to stay in the flow of the rotation, if you mess it up once it all crashes and burns.

For instance the opener is cobra, pot, throw explo and steel trap, harpoon then lacerate then raptor strikex3, mongoose bitex3(+1 or 2), snake hunter, mongoose bite x2, Aspect of eagle, flanking strike, raptor strike, mongoose bite, fury of the eagle, mongoose bite x 2 or 3. Congrats you just opened up on a fight, now do that again the whole fight while not dropping stacks.

[Hangnail]

the nerf to the tier hit surv pretty hard. feel like im doing about 100k less dps. Mongoose generation being more rng is no fun. Nothing you can do though but just keep playing and deal with it.

[aisatsana]

so how hard is the SV challenge? Did the BM one at 892 fairly easily after 8 tries, but I have no experience playing SV. Could pick up the spec quickly but how's the challenge compared to BM?

[gigasmack]

so how hard is the SV challenge? Did the BM one at 892 fairly easily after 8 tries, but I have no experience playing SV. Could pick up the spec quickly but how's the challenge compared to BM?

It took me less than 10 attempts to get the appearance. I'd recommend that you use a Turtle or Crab as your pet, it just limits the amount of damage you take. For the Razor Ice, use Butchery to kill it over trying to Disengaging out of it. I had that screw me over a few times as I jumped and hit one of the pillars on the way out and died. You also get the benefit of lowering the cool down on Exhilaration. Last phase isn't too difficult. Just get as far as you can with the beam. Once the adds spawn, drop Caltrops and Butchery them down. Rinse and repeat until he's dead.

[madokbro]

What do you think about the crafted legendary gloves for sv? Seems great stat-wise.

[Deleted]

robin hood was fighting with swords too!

[Khrux]

so how hard is the SV challenge? Did the BM one at 892 fairly easily after 8 tries, but I have no experience playing SV. Could pick up the spec quickly but how's the challenge compared to BM?

Its definitely the hardest challenge of the three for hunters, arguably the 2nd hardest challenge overall (next to tanks). Its definitely the most well rounded challenge also, with dps checks both ST and AoE, positional checks, class knowledge and timing checks with very little or no RNG involved. However Survival probably has it easier than any other melees that have to do this challenge as we have such a huge toolkit.

The BM challenge felt like a let down, the SV challenge felt like an accomplishment. I really cba with the MM challenge, I won't be playing the spec so have no use for its appearance.

[madokbro]

We just got buffed a bit, what do you think? Does %4 overall increase matter?

[Eapoe]

Still in a pretty bad spot. Only 1-2 weeks ago and t19 was still valued higher than t20 due to the way the set works. I also posted earlier (can't remember if this thread or a different one) but the damage increase isn't that great considering the way the spec works there are huge chunks of time over the course of a 4+ minute fight we don't use all of them. It's. it like a damage increase to MM/BM where all abilities get used pretty steadily and you can really see the improvements in damage.
The spec just needs a rework, but unfortunately will not have one until next xpac if people don't start making reports now. It needs a reduction in button bloat, possibly eliminating raptor strike and baking the heal from it into flanking strike, with the talents also effecting FS. Also, something where our traps, and maybe even Caltrops, do very little damage unless they affect 3+ targets and getting a huge damage bonus if it affects all those. That would keep it out of ST rotation but still give it value for AoE. Also, change our damn Mastery. Either take away the extra proc chance and make it just increase damage of 1-2 of our abilities with a flat % chance of FS to proc MB, or keep it with the proc chance but make it a instant free MB proc off the GCD that also benefits from current stacks/adds to the stacks.
Some kind of fine tuning needs to happen to the spec, and as it stands right now it's extremely behind BM and MM, as well as all other melee, which is a shame because I really like and enjoy the spec.

[gigasmack]

We just got buffed a bit, what do you think? Does %4 overall increase matter?

We also had a 3% buff on the 19th, so it's going to be interesting to see where this puts us.

[Eapoe]

We also had a 3% buff on the 19th, so it's going to be interesting to see where this puts us.

4% is all well and good, but per my last post, SV isn't like all other specs/classes. An increase to all abilities isn't the same for SV as all other specs. If you buff BM with a flat damage increase, all of their abilities feel it because there is no gap in ability usage, its firing 1 ability after another, and the fact ALL abilities get a flat increase is extremely beneficial. SV, however, continues to have huge gaps in ability usage due to burst windows and buff maintenance. We don't always have ExT or Caltrops damaging the target, we aren't always spamming MB, we only use RS to maintain WotMN, and with WotMN the usage of FS is decreased as well.
I'm sure the damage increases help, but a design change would be the most beneficial.

[DeicideUH]

4% is all well and good, but per my last post, SV isn't like all other specs/classes. An increase to all abilities isn't the same for SV as all other specs. If you buff BM with a flat damage increase, all of their abilities feel it because there is no gap in ability usage, its firing 1 ability after another, and the fact ALL abilities get a flat increase is extremely beneficial. SV, however, continues to have huge gaps in ability usage due to burst windows and buff maintenance. We don't always have ExT or Caltrops damaging the target, we aren't always spamming MB, we only use RS to maintain WotMN, and with WotMN the usage of FS is decreased as well.
I'm sure the damage increases help, but a design change would be the most beneficial.

That makes no sense. 4% increased damage is 4% increased damage. As long as you are doing the same rotation, you get a 4% increase. You'd only get less if you changed the rotation somehow.

[Eapoe]

That makes no sense. 4% increased damage is 4% increased damage. As long as you are doing the same rotation, you get a 4% increase. You'd only get less if you changed the rotation somehow.

While you are technically correct in a vague sense, it makes perfect sense if you stop to consider what the point of blanket buffs/nerfs do and the concept behind them. Also would help if I could explain it better. These types of buffs/nerfs work for specs like BM/MM due to the fact that all of their abilities are very predictable and will get used in short succession of each other. All abilities are used equally. These blanket style changes also are under the assumption that abilities get used on cooldown or in a predictable manner. If Blizz intends to increase overall damage by, say 100k as an example, then a blanket buff is good if these conditions are met.
The issue comes in with SV not being a predictable playstyle and all abilities are not used equally. Using things like FS or ExT is not predictable due to a proc based/buff management/dot using spec. When you truly look at the flow of SV, there are huge chunks of a given fight where ExT and FS aren't even used and sit on CD because you are spamming MB or refreshing WotMN. These long windows mean that a 4% buff to those abilities barely exist, and really only give maybe .5-1% increase in the overall scheme of things. SV also plays differently from 1 Hunter to the next due to things like proc chances and the RNG of our Mastery and Artifact Traits.
Take DH's for example. Blizzard wants to increase their sustain dps. They didn't give them a blanket buff, they focused on buffing abilities that would allow that to happen.
As for your point in rotation change, that's also close to the point I'm trying to make. The rotation changes constantly. One pull you might get back to back procs on FS usage where you are spamming MB seemingly nonstop and having no room for anything else. The next pull you might be on a bad luck streak and place ExT and use FS all the time.
It would be more beneficial to focus on buffing constant abilities and not others. Things like Lacerate and MB damage increases being bigger while not focusing on a blanket style buff would possibly work out much better. Or just a redesign/polishing of the spec as a whole.

[Cryocryp]

did the hotfix happen for the 4% buff to Survival?

[Nyel]

Why is nobody using Dragonsfire Grenade? I love the skill and it's pretty great for ST and not so bad for AoE, why does like nobody use it? Butchery / Serpent Sting so much better?