Ashes of Creation - new open world MMORPG

[Big Thanks]

I dont think it was a scam from the start IMO

I do think they did lots of "scam" things at the end thoe. Like steam release and public statements and hiding the lack of money and a new board...and some lies on the mix.

[Doomcookie]

I don't really have a horse in this race, but looking at it from the outside I think the term "scam" gets overused and has sort of lost meaning or gets used incorrectly, kind of like how "facist" and "Nazi" are used ad nauseam nowadays. An actual scam must involve intent of fraud, as the same results with no intent is just considered a failure in the business world. No matter how scummy or deceitful some actions or even results of actions may seem, unless there was intent behind it there was never a scam. Unless intent to defraud is proven, it's not a scam, not matter how much a situation may feel like a scam.

Now this doesn't meant there can't be signs that there was ineptitude and poor business practices abound, but the blame falls onto the people who gave them money and put their trust in them. At this point in the development of AoC, any money given towards the project could just be boiled down to investing, and anyone who has even a modicum of experience in investments will tell you that there are no guarantees there. Even just paying for an early access version of a game is still a gamble to some degree, as there's no guarantee that the game will fully release or even remain around to release; we've already seen games fully release yet disappear pretty quickly, like Concord, so this should not be a surprise to anyone.

I think it's easy to see, that at some point, the attempt to deceive occurred.

I don't think it started as a scam, but I think it turned into one, when he was clearly unable to actually do what he said he would do, but kept trying to get more money.

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sure

but again - they spent a lot of money on developers (having 75+ staff now ain't cheap at all) over the years, especially in socal which is one of the more expensive markets (both for real estate and salaries). this is why i'm generally disinclined towards "scam" because there are far cheaper ways to do this that let you skim far more money (hell, IIRC digital extremes is partly based out of london canada because it is/was cheap as shit out there so they can pay less while still giving devs a good quality of life pay, for example, but that's just smart cost cutting).

and a lie is not a scam. it's a lie. the two are often part and parcel, but a lie doesn't always beget or mean a scam.

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non-scam, reasonable explanation: they were in talks to secure additional funding and the revenue from their steam launch was a determining factor. not uncommon for shit like this to happen and when it works nobody knows and the product continues on.

What did they know, and when did they know it?

Call me a pessimist, but until we have a very clear answer on this, I'm leaning towards it being a scam.

[vian]

Wish I could say "Hate to say, but I told you so".

But naa!

[Osmeric]

Go back to the early messages in this thread and you can see people calling what would happen (in broad terms).

[Fencers]

Yes because the ending of it was the scam.

This is just a lay person/ consumers view of bussiness.

This is not how a scam or a bussiness work.

Game players have to understand that any & all bussiness can fail. There are many more factors to running and having a product in the market than just "Make game good" and other low knowledge sentiments.

I understand for the consumers the end result is the same- a product or company failed to meet expectations or promises. However, that happens in bussiness all the time.

Small bussiness exceed their operational output routinely. Just because you happen to be keen on video game failures doesn't make it any more or less likely than new bussiness which fail as restaurants, catering, breweries, collectibles, boutique fashion and jewelery, etc fail. Many of which are "self-funded", "fully funded" and make XYZ promises.

Businesses fail, dudes. You are not being scammed by a video game company that is paying salary to dozens of employees with a 4-6 year long tail.

You can make more money with a toll booth in that time.

[minteK917]

This is just a lay person/ consumers view of bussiness.

This is not how a scam or a bussiness work.

Game players have to understand that any & all bussiness can fail. There are many more factors to running and having a product in the market than just "Make game good" and other low knowledge sentiments.

I understand for the consumers the end result is the same- a product or company failed to meet expectations or promises. However, that happens in bussiness all the time.

Small bussiness exceed their operational output routinely. Just because you happen to be keen on video game failures doesn't make it any more or less likely than new bussiness which fail as restaurants, catering, breweries, collectibles, boutique fashion and jewelery, etc fail. Many of which are "self-funded", "fully funded" and make XYZ promises.

Businesses fail, dudes. You are not being scammed by a video game company that is paying salary to dozens of employees with a 4-6 year long tail.

You can make more money with a toll booth in that time.

Can you read my actual post, I never said the game never existed. I said its closure is a scam. Because it is. Their kickstarter state that if the game does not release, they would issue backers refund. What do you think they did 3 days before the announcement... release on steam to null this part of the clause when you gave them money on kickstarter, thats the scam.

[Felthan]

I Wonder what some of the people here defending AoC it not being a scam considered what games to be a scam? From my perspective he it was going to fail around 2024 when he stop paying server fees, hid his earnings reports and was getting sued by few companies in 2025. It might of not started as a scam but it 100% ended up as a Scam in 2024 going forward. Not to mention the Warn act stated he has 114 people in his employ and didn't give the 60 day notice as required by Cali law. The staff won't be getting paychecks as well for last term. Sorry but it looks like a scam. He had a year notice it was going to fail and didn't give any warning to staff. He also released on Steam in a unfinished state as well to avoid the kickstarter promise.

[Osmeric]

Their kickstarter state that if the game does not release, they would issue backers refund.

How could that possibly have been true? They spent money over all those years. That money is gone. How could they refund it?

Such a statement should have been a screaming red flag from day one. And if you believed it... LOL.

[deenman]

How could that possibly have been true? They spent money over all those years. That money is gone. How could they refund it?

Such a statement should have been a screaming red flag from day one. And if you believed it... LOL.

well isnt steven a milionair? he probably was under the impresion he could just make it work with refunds

[Osmeric]

well isnt steven a milionair? he probably was under the impresion he could just make it work with refunds

The Kickstarter campaign was from Intrepid, not Steven himself, if I understand correctly.

[Edge-]

Can you read my actual post, I never said the game never existed. I said its closure is a scam. Because it is. Their kickstarter state that if the game does not release, they would issue backers refund. What do you think they did 3 days before the announcement... release on steam to null this part of the clause when you gave them money on kickstarter, thats the scam.

again - that kickstarter refund thing doesn't matter like you think it does.

company runs out of money and shutters

liquidation of whatever assets they have begins assuming bankruptcy (likely)

lawyers and creditors and vendors get paid first

then backers would get any scraps left over, if they're lucky.

Fencers is correct in that this is now how a scam or business works and you seem to not understand that.

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well isnt steven a milionair? he probably was under the impresion he could just make it work with refunds

they'd have to go after him in civil court for that. the kickstarter was a donation to the company, intrepid, not him, steven

[minteK917]

again - that kickstarter refund thing doesn't matter like you think it does.

company runs out of money and shutters

liquidation of whatever assets they have begins assuming bankruptcy (likely)

lawyers and creditors and vendors get paid first

then backers would get any scraps left over, if they're lucky.

Fencers is correct in that this is now how a scam or business works and you seem to not understand that.

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they'd have to go after him in civil court for that. the kickstarter was a donation to the company, intrepid, not him, steven

Kickstarter was their biggest creditor, thats the point. Also you forgot companies like this also get bankruptcy insurance. There was no vendor (except steam 3 days before declaring this lol), lawyer sure. Creditors were in majority the people on kickstarter so in this case they would get MOST of the liquidation. But they wont since they made sure to release for 3 days, TO NOT have to pay any creditor.

Looks like steam is looking into it. People that paid for the steam version also cannot get a refunds for now, but they sent multiple msg saying they are looking into it. Probably will unlist the game or something down the line since it was a clear last minute cash attempt before a planned closure.

[Edge-]

Kickstarter was their biggest creditor, thats the point.

Again, you're highlighting how you don't seem to understand what you're talking about.

KS is not a creditor. Backers are not investors. They are donors.

Also you forgot companies like this also get bankruptcy insurance.

Did Intrepid? Do you think they did? Do you think that would cover KS backers who have no legal or binding contract with Intrepid?

There was no vendor (except steam 3 days before declaring this lol), lawyer sure.

Server hosts. Middleware providers. Property manger/owner etc. There are many vendors or other parties who would get money first.

Looks like steam is looking into it. People that paid for the steam version also cannot get a refunds for now, but they sent multiple msg saying they are looking into it. Probably will unlist the game or something down the line since it was a clear last minute cash attempt before a planned closure.

Valve generally is pretty generous with refunds in times like this. The game has already been removed from sale because that's what Valve does in situations like this. Nothing Valve is doing is special or unique, this is their standard practice.

[Fencers]

Can you read my actual post, I never said the game never existed.

I specifically quoted that part of your post to speak toward that notion. That is how forums operate. There is no reason to address or quote your entire post or what you are on about when I am only speaking toward that expression.

[rrayy]

had you followed any of the development? i don't recall seeing you earlier in this thread.

because this isn't fyre festival. it's a shitshow of bad leadership and management resulting in running out of money and failure, but if it was fyre festival it would be actual criminal fraud and i'm beyond skeptical there's evidence to support that

seems to be a whole lot of folks who suddenly have very strong and informed opinions on this game now that it's a dumpster fire in the spotlight

I follow everything. This has been a scam from day 1. Nothing for years, and then putting a bad alpha on Steam before finally saying the board, who is he and his spouse, forced him out and now suing this "board". I laughed at everyone who lost money because I knew it was happening from day one and this guy wasn't serious.

[Edge-]

I follow everything. This has been a scam from day 1. Nothing for years, and then putting a bad alpha on Steam before finally saying the board, who is he and his spouse, forced him out and now suing this "board". I laughed at everyone who lost money because I knew it was happening from day one and this guy wasn't serious.

I'm skeptical you've followed it based off your comments in this thread.

We also don't know who the board is, or if there is one yet. There very likely may be a board - state filings aren't all updated in real-time etc.

I mean, I don't disagree that this project always seem like it had long odds, but it seems a lot of industry experts always come out of the woodwork after the fact.

[Natureseer]

i have been following this project for a while, and i agree 100% that it was never meant to be a scam. it was simply too vast of a project for anything less than a AAA company to undertake, and i think because of that development time went on for far longer than expected, which then required even more money. i think some shady things have gone down since that realization set in, but calling this a scam from day 1 would be inaccurate

[Biomega]

There's a fine line between merely promising unrealistic results and outright scamming people. They also on occasion morph into each other, like someone will start off genuinely believing they can deliver but then realize along the way they'll never make it... and instead of telling people then and there they'll string them along to squeeze at least some juice out until things implode. And it can be supremely difficult to prove either, when it comes down to a court case. Companies being optimistic about their own progress is, after all, the standard MO.

There's lots of sus elements coming together here, though, from the pyramid scheme CEO to SUDDENLY BOARD. Nothing automatically dispositive of fraudulent activity, but there sure are a lot of points on the graph that sure do draw a kind of line.

Though it is funny to see people go "guys guys it's not fraud, it's just incompetence", ngl

[Nerph-]

I follow everything. This has been a scam from day 1. Nothing for years, and then putting a bad alpha on Steam before finally saying the board, who is he and his spouse, forced him out and now suing this "board". I laughed at everyone who lost money because I knew it was happening from day one and this guy wasn't serious.

Pretty sad to laugh at others losing their money, but hey, not everyone is as clever and wise as you, right?

[Dezerte]

I recall reading about this Steven guy a few years ago, how he was big into MLM. That alone was enough for me to not trust this project. But also, to be fair, I wasn't really ever the target audience (my days of MMO'ing is probably over, not enough time).