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  1. #61
    Finna, Hodir and especially Hymdall seem like exceedingly poor choices as their abilities have a static value, even prior to 7.2 the other followers had the capability to solo 200% missions with two troops, something that's really only increased now that they have access to a third equipment slot.

    For example, there's basically no situation in which Hymdall outperforms Crowley unless your troops are being rotated through poorly, since at worst, you send a fresh Valkyr on the mission and Crowley receives the same 15% bonus, on every mission instead of just long ones, or you send a Valkyr and a Valajar and he receives 25%(!) instead, with exactly the same counters.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Ortus View Post
    Finna, Hodir and especially Hymdall seem like exceedingly poor choices as their abilities have a static value, even prior to 7.2 the other followers had the capability to solo 200% missions with two troops, something that's really only increased now that they have access to a third equipment slot.

    For example, there's basically no situation in which Hymdall outperforms Crowley unless your troops are being rotated through poorly, since at worst, you send a fresh Valkyr on the mission and Crowley receives the same 15% bonus, on every mission instead of just long ones, or you send a Valkyr and a Valajar and he receives 25%(!) instead, with exactly the same counters.
    Finna, Hodir, and Hymdall are strong precisely because their bonuses are static and not reliant on troops (which you may or may not be using on different missions), equipment (which you may or may not have), or other champions.

    • Finna is one of the only two Prot, and hands down the best Champion with Pummel - the other two being Ymiron (with an exceedingly poor special), and Dvalen (an excess Fury whose bonus works on low health troops, which is at odds with the Champions you promote working with high health troops). I recommend using both Finna and Svergan, but failing that, Finnas wins, since it's a lot easier to get good Whirlwind counters than it is Pummel.
    • Hodir is not only one of the best Combat allies (I typically use Thorim but swap in Hodir depending on mission needs), and his special is almost always active since it syncs with his counter (Whirlwind/Minions). Pretty much any time you use him, he's going to get that +15% bonus, without the need to take up any other slots.
    • Hymdall is flat out broken when it comes to long missions; I run him with a Fetish, Vial, and Bottle (+15% all, +40% long, +30% long) on top of his passive which gives him a whopping +100% on long missions (+105 with boots, but I favor the flexibility with Fetish), not including his specialization counter. He can damn near 200% raid and other long missions by himself.
      It also shouldn't be discounted that by 7.2 most players would already have Hymdall at Epic, while Crowley starts back at Common, which is a huge disadvantage in gear, even if he were to be considered stronger.

    Now, as you point out, the Champions with troop bonuses can do the same thing, maybe even slightly better, but you leave out a key factor - they need troops to do so. This creates two issues:

    1. It takes up extra spots on the mission, which means you can't counter as much. For a large portion of missions this doesn't really matter as the threats are trivial to begin with (disorient/lethal), but can be debilitating when dealing with cursed or exhausting missions.

    2. It's less flexible, since it only really works when those missions match those particular Champions counters, otherwise you can knock ~30% off your bonus right away.

    3. It requires an excessive amount of troops. Good luck sending Ragnvald, Crowley, Svergan, and Dvalen out every day with a full complement of troops to max their bonus (along with keeping some at full health & some at 1 health). This creates opportunity cost, since your Champions are now competing against one another.

    Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick to being able to send out 5 missions at once at 200%, rather than having to wait for troops and worry about keeping them at max health just to ensure a scant handful of missions per day are able to be completed.

    Also, if you note, my suggested setups do use those Troop bonus Champions - it's just not completely reliant on them.

  3. #63
    Have you been putting up work orders all exp for gear, or how have you gotten so much sweet follower gear?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Atherions View Post
    Have you been putting up work orders all exp for gear, or how have you gotten so much sweet follower gear?
    I used work orders pre-7.2 and stockpiled a good amount of gear, but shortly after the patch I swapped to extra troops instead after learning three things:

    1. It was very easy to upgrade Champion ilvl, and I didn't need armor sets anymore.
    2. The work orders give mostly green quality equipment.
    3. The new crates awarded from missions themselves always award blue/purple quality equipment - making them much more lucrative than work orders.

    While I don't have any legendary follower equipment (outside of the freebie from the Command Center last week), the mission crates alone net quite a lot of useful items.

  5. #65
    Cheers for the guid, @Archimtiros, but one thing is confusing me... What on earth is Horn of Rage, and why would I ever use it over Skull of a Fallen Foe? http://www.wowhead.com/item=147560/horn-of-rage

    No comments on Wowhead, no mention of it here (I ctrl+f'd "rage" on all pages), and I'm simply stuck as to what it is.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=147560/horn-of-rage

    No comments on Wowhead, no mention of it here (I ctrl+f'd "rage" on all pages), and I'm simply stuck as to what it is.
    Well it says on the tooltip... seems an item to boost success with the new, optional troops, it procs even when you don't have them unlocked but you opted for the extra champion (I got an item to boost success chance with Shivarra on my DH even though I picked extra champ over Shivarra troops). Well ofc if you don't use the new troops it's pointless and you might as well use the item that boost valkyrs (the old big troops).

    Thing is, on a warrior, not sure how good is the extra champ research because a few of the champions have bad passives (Ymiron I'm looking at you). Similar feeling for locks or druids.

    P.S. As much as I'd like the +20% success with big troop tokens they're rare as hell, I think so far across my 7 alts I got 1 on druid 1 on paladin. Total since the start of expac.
    Last edited by Marrilaife; 2017-04-23 at 12:40 AM.

  7. #67
    Ahh, the new troops, alright.

    Forgive my stupidity

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Well it says on the tooltip... seems an item to boost success with the new, optional troops, it procs even when you don't have them unlocked but you opted for the extra champion (I got an item to boost success chance with Shivarra on my DH even though I picked extra champ over Shivarra troops). Well ofc if you don't use the new troops it's pointless and you might as well use the item that boost valkyrs (the old big troops).

    Thing is, on a warrior, not sure how good is the extra champ research because a few of the champions have bad passives (Ymiron I'm looking at you). Similar feeling for locks or druids.

    P.S. As much as I'd like the +20% success with big troop tokens they're rare as hell, I think so far across my 7 alts I got 1 on druid 1 on paladin. Total since the start of expac.
    That's why I went with Setup B in my OP, using Dvalen instead of Ymiron.

    The real downside to the troop equipment is that the bonuses are exclusive - the equipment only works if you're using troops (which requires having open slots on the mission/using less champions) and only if you're using that particular troop type. I have a lot of Champion equipment stockpiled (4+ of each purple quality item), and I only use troop boosting equipment on is Svergan, since he's best suited to actually make use of it (though I may add some to Ragnvald/Dvalen).

    The troop equipment bonuses also don't apply multiple times, so you don't get an extra bonus for using two Shieldmaidens instead of one, etc. Therefore, I tend to find it to be a better idea to simply use a +all completion item (Doodad/Fetish), which gives 5% less bonus, but far more flexibility.

  9. #69
    Mechagnome Hashtronaut's Avatar
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    Order hall upgrades...

    People going "roster of champions" or "strike hard"?
    "If you have no sauce, then you're lost. But, you can also get lost in the sauce." -Gucci Mane

    "I don't contemplate, I meditate, then off your fucking head"
    -Kendrick Lamar

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashtronaut View Post
    Order hall upgrades...

    People going "roster of champions" or "strike hard"?
    Well that's basically a question of "do I have a deactivated champion I'd really wish to include in my roster?" especially due to being low on specific spec / counter or because he has a really good passive.

    Across 7 alts of mine I picked roster of champions on 5, while special troops on 2, warrior being one where I picked special troops because I'm really not a fan of Svergan, or Ymiron and Hymdall / Crowley / Eitrigg provide the same counters so I just pick 1 of them leave the other. Ofc if you use different setup you might want to include extra champion, especially if you have special ones like Moroes or Meatball so your roster has more potentially useful followers.

    If you want to have 2 of each spec / ability, you pick extra champion so you never need your combat ally to cover for them. And combat ally is free gold / OR / AP if lucky.

    If you dislike managing troops and have champions outfitted for specific synergy (like the idea I saw on official forums where the person suggested having 1 team with equips for long missions and another team with equips for reducing mission duration and boosting short missions), then you want extra champions.

    If you like managing troop minigame, as someone pointed out Warriors have more champions than any other class that require specific troop-related conditions to be met, ragnvald / eitrigg / crowley buff exists on other classes, but only warrior has 2 champs with that passive, svergan and dvalen passives are unique afaik. Then ofc you have Thorim that benefits from sending him with pair of troops, and if he can't counter the abilites, shock troops can cover this. Even though personally I use him as a combat ally because that +25% attack power buff.

  11. #71
    To the OP: Do you have the class hall trait of 20% off mission times? Seeing how you did your champions I am figured the answer to that is no...

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Themanintobuildafire View Post
    To the OP: Do you have the class hall trait of 20% off mission times? Seeing how you did your champions I am figured the answer to that is no...
    You guess wrong. Of course I do, the skyhold chest is pathetic.

  13. #73
    I chose the quest not knowing what I was doing for the first 3 weeks of my class hall, I never even saw it spawn
    A hero of war, yeah that's what I'll be. And when I come home, they'll be damn proud of me

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    You guess wrong. Of course I do, the skyhold chest is pathetic.
    I don't get it then. You put 8hr 40% relics. Only about 20% of my total missions are 8hrs+ I find this pretty frustrating as a warrior and just looked at the fact I took the 20% reduction. This is how a lot of my missions end up in the 6hr area. I personally prefer 8hrs as I only do this mini game 2x a day. Before and after work.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Themanintobuildafire View Post
    I don't get it then. You put 8hr 40% relics. Only about 20% of my total missions are 8hrs+ I find this pretty frustrating as a warrior and just looked at the fact I took the 20% reduction. This is how a lot of my missions end up in the 6hr area. I personally prefer 8hrs as I only do this mini game 2x a day. Before and after work.
    Two points:

    1. Forced March reduces few missions below 8hrs (these missions will show up as 6.4hrs instead), and those missions start at 8hrs to begin with, which means the >8hr duration equipment and Hymdall's bonus don't work on them to begin with.

    2. The most important missions to bonus complete (rare, raid, strike, etc) will always be far more than 8hrs, even with Forced March.

    If you look at my setups, you'll see I use a mix - I have champions with +long missions, and I have champions with +short missions, along with a great amount of mission duration reduction (I can reduce those 6.4hr missions to >4hrs to enable +short mission equipment). Missions which fall out of those bonuses are largely handled by troop bonus champions (Dvalen, Svergan), though a great many of them don't offer compelling bonus rewards (ex: rep tokens) to begin with.

    The key is flexibility, not "one setup fits all".

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    though a great many of them don't offer compelling bonus rewards (ex: rep tokens) to begin with.
    Yep, I'm coming to the conclusion if I can't send every mission I want on 200% it's better to let the legionfall insignia ones at ~100% because you get 1-2 insignias base while the bonus roll is random rep token you often don't need.

    Gold missions are worth the bonus roll (base mission 300-900 gold bonus 1,5k), raid missions for coin, or even armor missions for the crates of equipment if you aren't full on preferred equipments yet. The AP missions are middlish in a way the bonus is often equal to the base, however they're mostly equal to a rare WQ (like falcosaur one), while the gold mission or legionfall rep token is worth quite above 1 WQ of value.

    Legionfall supplies are also good to 200% because base mission is 15-25 supplies but bonus is 50. With bonus, this mission is also worth above 1 WQ.

    I tend to prio gold, supplies and legionfall specific rep tokens (the latter no need to 200%), and if I have to skip something it's old reps (unless desperate for paragon) and AP.

    The dungeon mission is generally not worth sending afaik because it doesn't scale with m+, it's always base m0 and a rep token bonus.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Yep, I'm coming to the conclusion if I can't send every mission I want on 200% it's better to let the legionfall insignia ones at ~100% because you get 1-2 insignias base while the bonus roll is random rep token you often don't need.

    Gold missions are worth the bonus roll (base mission 300-900 gold bonus 1,5k), raid missions for coin, or even armor missions for the crates of equipment if you aren't full on preferred equipments yet. The AP missions are middlish in a way the bonus is often equal to the base, however they're mostly equal to a rare WQ (like falcosaur one), while the gold mission or legionfall rep token is worth quite above 1 WQ of value.

    Legionfall supplies are also good to 200% because base mission is 15-25 supplies but bonus is 50. With bonus, this mission is also worth above 1 WQ.

    I tend to prio gold, supplies and legionfall specific rep tokens (the latter no need to 200%), and if I have to skip something it's old reps (unless desperate for paragon) and AP.

    The dungeon mission is generally not worth sending afaik because it doesn't scale with m+, it's always base m0 and a rep token bonus.
    Yes, I don't bother to 200% dungeon missions or rep token missions if I have have to go out of my way to do so.

    • Short missions are the purview of my short mission specialists - I have enough stacked bonuses that they're easy to 200%.
    • Gold and equipment missions are often within that 5-6 hr mark, which I can reduce to under 4hr for easy 200% (though I can usually 200% them with Troop bonus champions). I usually can't send more than 1-2 of these at a time, but that's not really a limitation, and you can always send missions through the app (just make sure the damn thing is working right first).
    • Rare/Raid/Strike and other 8hr+ missions are completed by my long mission specialists - I can usually 200% at least two at once; solo one with Hymdall and double team the other.

  18. #78
    Keyboard Turner Deu's Avatar
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    What do you think is the best gear for Lord Darius Crowley and King Ymiron ?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Deu View Post
    What do you think is the best gear for Lord Darius Crowley and King Ymiron ?
    They don't have any specific strengths WRT gear, just use whatever gear you need to maximize missions you otherwise can't. Most likely gear related to short/long missions.

    As an aside, I merged this thread into my 7.2 guide awhile ago to maintain coherency. Feel free to continue to ask questions in either thread, but the majority of updates will be done there.

  20. #80
    Great compendium of info, thanks very much for your efforts!

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Crowley/Eitrigg - A second combat ally, with the option of putting them in proc mode
    How do you actually put Crowley in proc mode? Tooltip says he can be either guardian or supporter but how do you actually switch between the two modes?

    Thanks for enlightening me :-)
    Last edited by chameleon2000; 2017-06-15 at 08:20 PM.

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