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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    You cant honestly say that SD was not an OP talent. It went from 20% damage to 60%.
    Seeing as how most melee don't give up any ST for AoE and have significantly better burst than us, no, I cannot say SD was/is an OP talent.

    I mean to make Starfall even worth casting, you have to pick two talents (SOTF and SD) anyway. I don't think 2 talents should be required to cast a baseline spell that is still worse than most other baseline abilities melee get.

    Setup for Starfall:
    - 2 talents (that also greatly lowers ST)
    - Moonfire/Starfire on every target to maximize DPET of Starfall
    - All mobs must be alive at least 8 seconds.

    Setup for most other AoE abilities:
    - Press the button. You did 20M burst AoE, grats!

    Seriously, look at Demon Hunters, Warriors, any other fucking melee. They have a 1 or 2 button AoE cooldown/spammable and it does monstrous damage. They also don't give up 2 talents to get said AoE, while Starfall is basically unusable at 60 AsP and without SD.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2017-04-14 at 12:51 AM.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
    I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    And presenting as if nothing is wrong with our class is also misleading. Telling people we are not one of the weakest classes is just a lie.
    We WERE one of the worst classes.

    Look at 7.2 over last week.

    We went from 24/24 by 2+% on every ST fight to 20-21/24 on every ST fight Because of the new Gold trait. Combine that with new 4 set+the 11% SS buff and we should be right in the middle 10-15th ST in 7.2 as of right now.
    moshotsNew Main
    mohots Retired Moonkin

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohoots View Post
    We WERE one of the worst classes.

    Look at 7.2 over last week.

    We went from 24/24 by 2+% on every ST fight to 20-21/24 on every ST fight Because of the new Gold trait. Combine that with new 4 set+the 11% SS buff and we should be right in the middle 10-15th ST in 7.2 as of right now.
    You combine our changes and no one elses? That doesnt make much sense seeing as other people will gain DPS increase with their tier as well as their changes

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohoots View Post
    We WERE one of the worst classes.

    Look at 7.2 over last week.

    We went from 24/24 by 2+% on every ST fight to 20-21/24 on every ST fight Because of the new Gold trait. Combine that with new 4 set+the 11% SS buff and we should be right in the middle 10-15th ST in 7.2 as of right now.
    What are you talking about? Just looking at last week:

    Look at single target fights. Krosus and Trilliax. On Krosus moonkins are ~100k below average and ~200k below the top, the same for Trilliax.

    I picked a few random moonkins for mythic krosus that did around 75% performance. They all wear ED and they all do around 30% of their total dps in starsurge.

    That's a 11% increase on 30% total dps or around 3.3% dps increase. on 600k that's around 18-20k dps more.

    How exactly does this place us into the middle of the pack ~100k dps away?

    Also remember:

    A buff to starsurge is a buff to ED which is a nerf to a 2-piece we lose because ED is a head piece.
    Last edited by Truckermouse; 2017-04-14 at 12:57 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    You combine our changes and no one elses? That doesnt make much sense seeing as other people will gain DPS increase with their tier as well as their changes
    Because of this, I'd practically say the SS change looks nice on paper, but due to losing the 4P T19 and the changes other classes get, it's not really enough. Obs this is early 7.2.5 but hopefully they'll put more out there for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truckermouse View Post
    How exactly does this place us into the middle of the pack ~100k dps away?
    Lol it doesn't, esp when we'll be losing 15% SS damage 4P anyway.

    2P T20's 30 AsP cap is nice and all for ED but I don't think 10% generation is going to do much. That's literally +1 AsP per spell (+2 for Half Moon and +4 for Full Moon). That equates to 1 extra Starsurge or Starfall (with SOTF of course) every 40 (AsP-generating) spell casts... Yeah that's not worth much...
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2017-04-14 at 12:57 AM.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
    I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Truckermouse View Post
    What are you talking about? Just looking at last week:

    Look at single target fights. Krosus and Trilliax. On Krosus moonkins are ~100k below average and ~200k below the top, the same for Trilliax.

    I picked a few random moonkins for mythic krosus that did around 75% performance. They all wear ED and they all do around 30% of their total dps in starsurge.

    That's a 11% increase on 30% total dps or around 3.3% dps increase. on 600k that's around 18-20k dps more.

    How exactly does this place us into the middle of the pack ~100k dps away?

    Also remember:

    A buff to starsurge is a buff to ED which is a nerf to a 2-piece we lose because ED is a head piece.

    600k what are you looking at? if you want class balance look at 95% and 95+% is 850k minimum and also you can't look at averages for all classes.

    We are balanced vs ranged melee are balanced vs melee. don't expect is to ever compete with assas rogues who do -100k dps in aoe and are built to only sit on a bosses ass doing ST.

    with next tiers 4 set the 11%SS should be a 3-4% dps gain. as to the 2 piece we are losing sorry to tell you this but there is 0% chance boomkins were gonna drop ED for 2/4set.

    CI was a 8% dps gain ST. and is one of the top 3 strongest gold traits any class recieved. I feel good that boomkins will be a very good place in 7.2.5 for good players at least. Also if you look at good 95%+ moonkins they are getting 35+% Starsurge ST with ED... if your under that your doing it wrong.
    moshotsNew Main
    mohots Retired Moonkin

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohoots View Post
    600k what are you looking at? if you want class balance look at 95% and 95+% is 850k minimum and also you can't look at averages for all classes.

    We are balanced vs ranged melee are balanced vs melee. don't expect is to ever compete with assas rogues who do -100k dps in aoe and are built to only sit on a bosses ass doing ST.
    Okay, Let's do it your way then.

    Mythic Krosus, 95 percentile, last week, 7.2.

    Moonkins do 773k dps, average for all dps specs is ~860, highest dps is affliction lock with 962k.

    99 percentile maybe?

    Moonkins do 830k dps, average for all dps specs is ~ 920k, highest dps is affliction lock with 1044k

    You see, no matter what percentile you choose, moonkins always are around 100k behind the average dps spec. This "buff" will give us around 20k dps more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohoots View Post
    Also if you look at good 95%+ moonkins they are getting 35+% Starsurge ST with ED... if your under that your doing it wrong.
    On that claim you are correct. So let it be 11% more on 35%. 3.85% more dps on those 830k. 0.0385*830 = 32k dps. That really makes a difference if you are 100k behind. Literally best case scenario pure single target fight with legendaries supporting this buff and this will still place us in the bottom third of dps specs. If you either don't have ED, don't want to run it or only rank at maybe ~80%-90% this buff will be even worse.
    Last edited by Truckermouse; 2017-04-14 at 01:36 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    It isnt better than nothing. it is nothing when you think we are gonna be losing 4% SS dmg.
    The alternative is losing 15% SS damage. What even is this post?
    Whaleshark /spits on your science.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Irefusetodie View Post
    The alternative is losing 15% SS damage. What even is this post?
    Thank you for your high quality insight and feedback. Wanting to suck blizzards dick cause we are only going to lose 4% and not 15% is just dumb.

  10. #30
    If the discussion devolves into personal attacks, then I will give out infractions. Stick to topic and cut it out. Last warning.
    <Adorable> - OCE 16, US 93
    Slippykins - Armory - Logs - Wowprog

    Boomkin Theorycrafting (updated for 7.2.5) -- linky

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    If the discussion devolves into personal attacks, then I will give out infractions. Stick to topic and cut it out. Last warning.
    Where was a personal attack? o.O

    I mean you coming in here saying there is nothing to discuss is hardly any better to sticking to topic.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Irefusetodie View Post
    The alternative is losing 15% SS damage. What even is this post?
    15% SS damage vs 15% haste with a 100% uptime of atleast 1 stack (3% haste)... Probably close to 60% uptime of 5 stacks if your doing a ED rotation or have lust.

    I don't think you realize how good our new 4 set is........ Its one of the strongest 4 sets ive seen on the PTR....

    Also with the 2 set starting at 130 AP and 10% gen you will get smoother ED rotations leading to longer ability to keep up ED=More SS casts= More SS damage.


    TLDR I believe 2+4 set of T20 will be a DPS gain over T19 2+4 set. Even before we add in the 11% SS buff.

    And that is not even Mentioning the fact that t19 was 0% dps gain to AOE... To which T20 will be a HUGE boost to aoe. the ability to layer 3 stacks of starfall and stacking haste to dots will be OP.
    Last edited by Moshots; 2017-04-14 at 02:18 AM.
    moshotsNew Main
    mohots Retired Moonkin

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    And presenting as if nothing is wrong with our class is also misleading. Telling people we are not one of the weakest classes is just a lie.
    what he said

  14. #34
    Well, looks like spec is becoming more ED reliant with the new 4 set.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    Where was a personal attack? o.O

    I mean you coming in here saying there is nothing to discuss is hardly any better to sticking to topic.
    It was a precautionary warning, not pointing at you specifically.

    And I do think there are things to discuss. I simply said the changes were good. I will have more to say when I get home from work.
    <Adorable> - OCE 16, US 93
    Slippykins - Armory - Logs - Wowprog

    Boomkin Theorycrafting (updated for 7.2.5) -- linky

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohoots View Post
    I don't think you realize how good our new 4 set is........ Its one of the strongest 4 sets ive seen on the PTR....
    Previously it was Wax and Wane will fix it (movement dps loss) - nope - resulted in even further nerf because some supposed experts didn't know Stellar Empowerment affected Sunfire and Moonfire direct damage. Loss 1-2% damage on AoE.

    Circadian Invocation will fix it (ST dps) - nope and this statement was made after the nerf to haste for Starfall as well. Lost another 15% on AoE.

    Now it's 4 PC T20 will fix it. I'm betting that's a no as well, again another loss of 4% on AoE.

    I'm not sure what kind of fantasy devs and supporters of devs are living in, everytime they say that boomkins are fine, maths and actual logs says otherwise.

    95% and 99% logs don't count because ignoring fight mechanics to boost DPS cannot be the norm for boomkin just to be middle of the pack.
    Last edited by beaver1024; 2017-04-14 at 02:45 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    Thank you for your high quality insight and feedback. Wanting to suck blizzards dick cause we are only going to lose 4% and not 15% is just dumb.
    Almost as dumb as just assuming you're losing all of the damage from the current 4pc and gaining nothing from the next 4pc, right? Here's a thought that might not have gone through your head yet. What if the next 4pc is as much of a damage increase as the current one? Then we're getting a flat buff. It's weird how that works.

    What remains to be seen is if the current 4pc goes through as is and how much of an actual DPS increase it is on top of any other changes Blizzard might make. Don't mind me though, I'm just sucking blizzard's dick. Not thinking rationally at all.
    Whaleshark /spits on your science.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by beaver1024 View Post
    Previously it was Wax and Wane will fix it (movement dps loss) - nope - resulted in even further nerf because some supposed experts didn't know Stellar Empowerment affected Sunfire and Moonfire direct damage. Loss 1-2% damage on AoE.

    Circadian Invocation will fix it (ST dps) - nope and this statement was made after the nerf to haste for Starfall as well. Lost another 15% on AoE.

    Now it's 4 PC T20 will fix it. I'm betting that's a no as well, again another loss of 4% on AoE.

    I'm not sure what kind of fantasy devs and supporters of devs are living in, everytime they say that boomkins are fine, maths and actual logs says otherwise.

    95% and 99% logs don't count because ignoring fight mechanics to boost DPS cannot be the norm for boomkin just to middle of the pack.
    You do realize that the 4% loss on AOE is because we are gonna have atleast a 10% boost on AOE from the 2+4 set (the ability to save 120 AP and triple layer Starfall is going to be fucking Juicy) not to mention 15% haste on dots when doing this....... vs a 2 and 4 set that gave 0% aoe this tier... To which we are already really good on Substained AOE (regardless of the lack of fights with it this tier)

    CI did fix alot... we went from 24/24 almost 2% behind 23rd.. to 20/24 Ahead of Unholy/Spriest/Fire Mage/Enhance and Really we are only 2-3% behind being Middle of the pack... People looking at the top right now are Kinda retarded...

    #1 Frost mages are currently overperforming in 7.2 DUE TO A BUG with spell queing allowing double ice lances in FOF's.
    Demo just got tuned down in a hotfix which is a mid 2-3% dps tune down.
    Affliction is getting nerfed no one believes affliction will stay where it is...

    the top 4-5 are gonna get tuned down.
    the bottom 4-5 are getting tuned up (balance/Spriest/Fire/Unholy/Enhance)

    When we get 7.2.5 out there will be a 5-7% dps spread rather than the 10-15% we see now.... Don't panic untill we get raid testing.
    Last edited by Moshots; 2017-04-14 at 02:54 AM.
    moshotsNew Main
    mohots Retired Moonkin

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Irefusetodie View Post
    Almost as dumb as just assuming you're losing all of the damage from the current 4pc and gaining nothing from the next 4pc, right? Here's a thought that might not have gone through your head yet. What if the next 4pc is as much of a damage increase as the current one? Then we're getting a flat buff. It's weird how that works.

    What remains to be seen is if the current 4pc goes through as is and how much of an actual DPS increase it is on top of any other changes Blizzard might make. Don't mind me though, I'm just sucking blizzard's dick. Not thinking rationally at all.
    everytime we think our tier is going to far outpace everyone else's changes, it always ends up disappointing.
    last tier we had one of the biggest dps bumps and look where we ended up after some changes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohoots View Post

    the top 4-5 are gonna get tuned down.
    the bottom 4-5 are getting tuned up (balance/Spriest/Fire/Unholy/Enhance)

    When we get 7.2.5 out there will be a 5-7% dps spread rather than the 10-15% we see now.... Don't panic untill we get raid testing.
    same old assumptions that were prevalent last balancing patch, lets hope This time around we don't keep saying "don't panic" "just wait" and end up where we are today.

  20. #40
    I'm more miffed I spent 4 points in my Artifact for what will be a 2% increase on Starfall.

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