From a Warlock - how is s-priest?

[muto]

Shadow is fine in something like Mythic+, but it sucks ass in Nighthold for 9 of the 10 fights, because it can't do single target damage, and adds die too quick.

[vavlqlw]

Warlock may be appealing as a class, [...] they don't even excel.

Here's a fun thing I looked at yesterday that might be relevant. I took the 99th percentile shadow parse on each mythic fight (excluding scorpion) and checked what percentile an affliction lock would get with that DPS. I chose 99th percentile here because that should be good shadow priests with good gear (and appropriate legendaries), without hitting the very top where some of the parses are the result of strats that allow them to pad. Also, only affliction, not whatever the top lock spec is, so no spec swapping nonsense.

Chronomatic Anomaly: 1,069,607, good for about 80th percentile as affliction
Trilliax: 913,438, good for about 93nd percentile as affliction
Spellblade Aluriel: 1,044,392, good for about 90th percentile as affliction
Tichondrius: 1,845,920, over 99th percentile for as affliction (affliction 99th percentile is 1,609,435 -- just about 97th percentile for shadow)
Star Augur Etraeus: 864,609, good for about 45th percentile as affliction
Krosus: 831,178, good for about 60th percentile as affliction
High Botanist Tel'arn: 963,290, good for about 85th percentile as affliction
Grand Magistrix Elisande: 1,046,447, good for over 99th percentile as affliction (affliction 99th percentile is 1,040,102 -- just about 99th percentile for shadow)
Gul'dan: 1,037,812, good for about 92nd percentile as affliction

Keep in mind that M Tich a massive pad fight because most strats involve keeping a wave of bloods on the boss that don't die (the damage to bosses chart for M Tich is pretty skewed -- 99th percentile shadow is 714k, good for 50% percentile for affliction -- and this doesn't count that affliction is actually meaningful bat damage whereas shadow...). Still, let's be generous and count it as a win for shadow (boss damage plus bat damage say otherwise -- and massively so), which means Affliction beats Shadow 7 fights to 2. If you try really hard, you might convince yourself that this is still pretty inconclusive. So let's look at margins of victory. The lowest a 99th percentile affliction parse would do if it were a shadow parse is 97th percentile. I think that's a reasonable number in a balanced world. The lowest a 99th percentile shadow parse would do if it were an affliction parse though? 45th percentile. 99% of shadow priests on mythic augur would do better if they did median DPS as affliction.

I don't know what Shadow is if Affliction lives in a "narrow niche" and doesn't "even excel."

[Rogalicus]

I don't know what Shadow is if Affliction lives in a "narrow niche" and doesn't "even excel."

It's an overtuned spec, that is getting hard nerf in 7.2.5, specifically to overtuned talent that allows it to tunnel boss. Without that talent Affliction would be absolutely atrocious unplayable shit with way lower ST damage than current Shadow and much worse multidotting. And that's what you miss, Aff is retardedly overtuned to offset shitty mechanics, Shadow is currently undertuned, but mechanics are solid. I don't see why you act as if sky is falling.

[davesignal]

Shadow also requires significantly more APM than an Afflock does to get those numbers, which is one of my biggest problems with Shadow: it takes a shitload more effort to do significantly less DPS than most specs in the game. It's wasted effort, and I'm tired of busting my ass trying to keep up with people who are actually having fun and shooting the shit while playing their specs.

[vavlqlw]

It's an overtuned spec, that is getting hard nerf in 7.2.5, specifically to overtuned talent that allows it to tunnel boss. Without that talent Affliction would be absolutely atrocious unplayable shit with way lower ST damage than current Shadow and much worse multidotting. And that's what you miss, Aff is retardedly overtuned to offset shitty mechanics, Shadow is currently undertuned, but mechanics are solid. I don't see why you act as if sky is falling.

I don't think I'm missing anything. I very clearly am focused on the results, and Affliction is the king. And keep in mind, you were the one who called them bad (well, you said they don't "excel"). Not me. I said they're insane. Why do I think the sky is falling? Because I'm not optimistic that tuning is going to fix the problems people experience with shadow.

I also can't tell if you've played shadow significantly, because shadow's mechanics make it quite terrible in everything but raids. Let's look how shadow works in mythic+. 12-15 second ramp-up just to get into Voidform (under a +10? pull's over before you get there). 1 global per enemy (2 without Misery) ramp-up to put your dots on (under a +10? pull's over before you get there). Another 20 seconds until Voidform stacks are reasonably high and you can actually leverage your spec (under a +15? pull's over before you get there). AoE pack like Arcway oozes or rats? Hit your AoE trinkets and start Shadow Mending, because Mind Sear isn't doing anything.

Those are very real mechanical problems that are not getting fixed via tuning without also overtuning shadow for raids. With 7.2.5 coming soon, what are the odds they make mechanical fixes for shadow in time? Probably not right? That's why I'm complaining on the forums.

[liquidfear]

Shadow is fine in something like Mythic+, but it sucks ass in Nighthold for 9 of the 10 fights, because it can't do single target damage, and adds die too quick.

wat?

we're not great on skorp, chromatic or trilliax, but after those irrelevant bosses we're good on each of the 7 bosses left.

we shine on tich, eli and bot, while being decent-upper middle of the pack on the rest of the bosses

[Leyre]

its fun if you have infinite haste, otherwise dont bother

[Relapses]

Well, the grass is always greener on the other side. As a guy who rerolled from Warlock I absolutely adore Shadow as a fast and intensive DoT spec — pretty much what I always expected from Affliction. Warlock may be appealing as a class, that always has a good performing spec, but reality is more cruel — all 3 specs have a narrow niche, in which they don't even excel. Pair it with probably the most uninspired and badly designed gameplay this game has ever seen and you'll hate your life for rolling Warlock.

I played Arcane in HFC because I liked being at the top of the DPS meter, not because I enjoyed the spec. I played a Warlock in SoO for the same reason. Even then, I still preferred Shadow's playstyle just as I do now. For me, contributing DPS to the raid is just as important as playstyle. And currently Shadow only delivers on one of those fronts. The only reason I haven't rerolled already is because I can't be arsed to do all of Legion's bullshit questing again.

[Aoewy]

wat?

we're not great on skorp, chromatic or trilliax, but after those irrelevant bosses we're good on each of the 7 bosses left.

we shine on tich, eli and bot, while being decent-upper middle of the pack on the rest of the bosses

You havent check the mythic statistic ranking in a long time.

75th percentile:
Skorpiron - last
Chronomatic - 20th
Trilliax - 20th
Aluriel - 22th
Tichondrius - 8th thank to stacking bloods
Augur - 19th
Krosus - last
Botanist - 11th
Elisande - 7th
Guldan - 17th

The 95th percentile we are worst on all these position except Tichondrius and Botanist.

But hey, its fine!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=95

[Rogalicus]

I don't think I'm missing anything. I very clearly am focused on the results, and Affliction is the king.

Again, Affliction is an overtuned spec that is getting huge nerf, just like S2M SP did in 7.1.5, when it was fucking dealing double damage of any other spec. There's no use going after obvious outliers and saying 'I want that', it's never gonna happen.

And keep in mind, you were the one who called them bad (well, you said they don't "excel"). Not me. I said they're insane.

Because apparent niche of affliction is multidotting and it's clear that it's inferior to Shadow mechanically. Same with Destro's cleave as it's even getting worse in 7.2.5.

I also can't tell if you've played shadow significantly, because shadow's mechanics make it quite terrible in everything but raids. Let's look how shadow works in mythic+.
-snip-

You have a point there, Shadow's AoE is in pretty terrible state, especially the part when Holy deals better damage in old raids. The thing is, would you enjoy it more if they just increase Mind Sear damage by 400% or this part just needs a rework, because SW:P requirement is beyond stupid. I choose the latter. T20 is also terrible, stupid damage buff for a cooldown pet, I really hope they'll rework that.

I played Arcane in HFC because I liked being at the top of the DPS meter, not because I enjoyed the spec. I played a Warlock in SoO for the same reason. Even then, I still preferred Shadow's playstyle just as I do now. For me, contributing DPS to the raid is just as important as playstyle. And currently Shadow only delivers on one of those fronts. The only reason I haven't rerolled already is because I can't be arsed to do all of Legion's bullshit questing again.

You have a point, but no spec ever stays FotM. Most of Shadow's issues can be resolved with a simple buff, Affliction's issues are currently offset by big deeps, but that will go away and issues like long Agony ramp up, random resource (Soul Shards) generation, random secondary resource (Reap Souls stacks, which are currently padded by loads of adds on encounters) generation, Life Tap every 15 or so seconds, big reliance on dying adds for AoE (Soul Flame) are gonna stay, unless Blizzard starts a big rework.

[KaPe]

Shadow has to be the only dps spec in a game where you're better off respecing to a healer in order to AOE trivial mobs. World quests with imps, spiderling and other one shottable swarming mobs are absurdly annoying. Can't AOE them down, since Mind Sear doesn't work without SW:P. Shadow Crash has enormous cooldown, making it impractical to deal with continous spawns. Same with various trinkets. It's not even difficult, just annoying and frustrating - especially when you see any other class simply nuke that stuff within seconds.

For someone who uses power of the Old Gods to have issues with tiny spiders... yeah, what a great class fantasy.

[Spicymemer]

Just think about it.
If S2M wasn't as OP as it was in 7.0.x we would be using LoTV or that mindspike talent??
everything else is within margin for hit or miss.
Blizzard literally have no fucking clue what to do with spriest.
But the cucks and they are exactly that over on H2P have stockholm syndrome, they all do, 'spriest is fine, dont question blizzard', im sure they'll turn it around.
Ive played spriest since vanilla, pve since T4.

There has only been twice when spriest has felt good to play without risk of the nerfbat being swung like a sledgehammer, because the skillset was good, the damage was acceptable and the utility filled in the blanks.

That was in the era of Mana batteries (Burning Crusade) and T10 (when dots could gain benefit from crit and haste, also t10 set bonus), while i skipped MoP and have heard spriests were doing slightly better than average.

Every expansion for spriest seems quite similar, we start out strong, we're nerfed quite promptly, far sooner than other overperforming specs and then we're shit, but blizzard brings in a big set bonus for the final raid tier and then everyone becomes placted until the next expansion.

Blizzard fail to design us, they underestimate the class, then they punish like the hybrid tax still exists.

[Isentropy]

But the cucks and they are exactly that over on H2P have stockholm syndrome, they all do, 'spriest is fine, dont question blizzard', im sure they'll turn it around.

The people over at H2P aren't one single entity that all think the same way. Maybe you also missed the 13 page document that was put out just a week ago regarding shadow, or feedback that was given by H2P folks prior to 7.2 (including the alpha and beta of Legion). Therefore, how you come to the conclusion that Blizzard is immune to criticism according to H2P I'm not entirely sure. Or maybe you think describing issues like you do is the best way to convince Blizzard that they exist?

Nice usage of the word cuck by the way!

[wholol]

There are so many conflicting opinions in this thread, it is amusing.

To be fair, I understand the reasoning behind both PoVs but I have to say that coming from a retail warlock player who has all casters at cap currently, dps aside, SPs are by far one of the most engaging, fun and polished caster spec in the game.

It is such a smooth spec to play, dps often influences people's concepts of fun in this game. People view aff as a better spec only because of numbers whereas I consider affliction to be one of the most boring to play specs in the game currently, shadow has several times more layers of complexity attached without detaching the smoothness of the spec, which in my eyes is a great job at designing a spec.

[Deleted]

I dont think anyone said shadow is not complex, its by far more complex than an affli lock, a fire/frost mage or even a balance... which is exactly one of the shadow problems. If you want to have a complex spec very punishing (and shadow is very punishing), you need to make it WORTH. Its unacceptable that if you play shadow you have to work much harder than other classes and get worse results, its a joke.
Shadow was indeed very good at the START of nighthold, when top guilds cleared it mythic with a low itemlevel raid (when i read RETARDS saying "hey but the guild XXX had 3 shadow in their world first!!!" it makes me want to slap their face since only few guilds can do that, most havent cleared guldan after 3 months). But things changed very quickly. They nerfed all our top 3 legendaries, they nerfed insanity (which hurt us big on guldan/eli/anomaly), they buffed some other classes. That, together witn nerf of some bosses mechanics, everyone gettin more gear outgearing almost the content, and a lot of stuff becoming from MT to ST, made shadow the shit its now.
Shadow cant be a spec that world first guilds abuse for few weeks when its very good and then with time it becomes crappy and a burden for the huge majiority of the people. Also we cant forget that the last 3 expansions have had the last tier last over 12 months, so the idea that you're good only at start and then basically for a year you go back sucking is really bad. Blizzard needs to make shadow a lot more linear. Im sure all shadow players dont give a shit if ìmethod or serenity bring 3 shadows in their world first if the price they have to pay is then to be destroyed by mages or locks after few weeks and for the rest of the tier.

[l33t]

It is such a smooth spec to play, dps often influences people's concepts of fun in this game. People view aff as a better spec only because of numbers whereas I consider affliction to be one of the most boring to play specs in the game currently, shadow has several times more layers of complexity attached without detaching the smoothness of the spec, which in my eyes is a great job at designing a spec.

Well, you know, IMO complexity is good when every class/spec has a couple of layers of it, so more skill = more dps for everyone. But playing shadow in a raid full of mongoloid melees and hunters, who have fun facerolling on a keyboard while you have to do heavy workout and still, while getting 90+ percentile among shadow players, you are always 10+% away in damage dealt from those mongoloid specs, is not fun in any way. Problem is, shadow priest currently is still at year 2004 in terms of design, while every other dps spec is remade to modern standarts, you know, standarts that require a player to use dps cd and cleave shit in short bursts. Which wasn't so bad while we had good sustained single target damage, which we don't have anymore. Nowadays complexity is not good, even bad, because the less errors you can make while playing, the better you'll perform - especially considering the amount of boss abilities nowadays. So, while it is somewhat interesting to win a challenge of learning how to play shadow priest properly, in the end you get nothing for your great effort, other than the fact that you now know how to play shadow priest properly.

[wholol]

Well, you know, IMO complexity is good when every class/spec has a couple of layers of it, so more skill = more dps for everyone. But playing shadow in a raid full of mongoloid melees and hunters, who have fun facerolling on a keyboard while you have to do heavy workout and still, while getting 90+ percentile among shadow players, you are always 10+% away in damage dealt from those mongoloid specs, is not fun in any way. Problem is, shadow priest currently is still at year 2004 in terms of design, while every other dps spec is remade to modern standarts, you know, standarts that require a player to use dps cd and cleave shit in short bursts. Which wasn't so bad while we had good sustained single target damage, which we don't have anymore. Nowadays complexity is not good, even bad, because the less errors you can make while playing, the better you'll perform - especially considering the amount of boss abilities nowadays. So, while it is somewhat interesting to win a challenge of learning how to play shadow priest properly, in the end you get nothing for your great effort, other than the fact that you now know how to play shadow priest properly.

Yes I understand what you're saying, but I wasn't talking about dps. Numbers can be tuned,however redesigning a clunky spec to make it smooth and polished takes forever tbh.

[dmfg]

Yes I understand what you're saying, but I wasn't talking about dps. Numbers can be tuned,however redesigning a clunky spec to make it smooth and polished takes forever tbh.

The problem is that Blizz is trying to cater to 2 completely conflicting bits of feedback.

One is what players are saying, which is "spec A is mechanically shit, fix this ASAP, I don't care that the DPS is top tier". The second is what players are actually doing, which is playing the shit out of spec A and ignoring mechanically better specs, because all people really care about is DPS numbers.

[Gob]

Former Warlock main here, I find Spriest to be extremely clunky. Many cooldowns to juggle, many timings that never quite align right. You might waste a mental GCD on an ability in Voidform when your insanity runs out and you're trying to time things with less room for error than your ping allows.

[Relapses]

Former Warlock main here, I find Spriest to be extremely clunky. Many cooldowns to juggle, many timings that never quite align right. You might waste a mental GCD on an ability in Voidform when your insanity runs out and you're trying to time things with less room for error than your ping allows.

You haven't felt pain until you channel Void Torrent outside of Void Form.