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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Nothing to do with difficulty. Its a matter of enjoyment. I can heal easily but I hate healing so I put in less effort.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I can sure play whatever I want and have never felt left behind. Unless you are a cutting edge Mythic raider it means nothing.
    More DPS means something where ever you are.
    It never feels good to be behind.


    In any case, raiding is all that matter to me and the AP system is a really bad idea in my opinion.

  2. #62
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    More DPS means something where ever you are.
    It never feels good to be behind.


    In any case, raiding is all that matter to me and the AP system is a really bad idea in my opinion.
    You are entitled to your wrong opinion

  3. #63
    They can do whatever they want, I am not going to change from BM to this shit called MM even if MM did twice as much dps (not to mention Surv). Enjoyment >>> numbers.

  4. #64
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrodel View Post
    Mkay, let's turn this around then...

    I've got a rogue. I know how to be an outlaw, but don't think for a second I'll have any luck playing the other two specs. I have no interest in them, and believe me, I've tried learning them, but they just don't work for me. There is no doubt in my mind that even if the other specs were 25% ahead of Outlaw in sims, I'd stick to Outlaw. Sure, I MIGHT end up doing more dps in the other specs just randomly mashing buttons, but that's more about luck than skill.

    Now let's say all 3 rogue specs are within 5% of each other. Let's say Sub wins, Ass at -2% and Outlaw -5%. Which spec, given the above information, do you think I, me personally, would do the most damage in?


    I'll help. The answer is what used to be called Combat. Because that is what I'm good at. Playing ANYTHING ELSE would actually "weaken the potential of my team succeeding", to use your own words. It doesn't matter if Sub is better in sims, if I, the player, cannot play like the sims says I should. And because of that, Blizzard cannot force me to pick a spec. They can buff or nerf all they like, but I will always perform better in a spec I CAN play than in a spec that just sims the highest.
    That's just a L2P issue though. Just because YOU can't play a spec properly doesn't mean the others are better. Also depending on your level of raiding, it wouldn't even factor in (Progression guilds will play the best spec to the best of its ability)

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    You are entitled to your wrong opinion
    Why, thank you.
    I would hardly call it wrong though. I might simply focus on another part of the game and this system really hinders my enjoyment of the game.
    It makes it stressfull and grindy if played the way I like to play the game.

    Just having one system for all specs and not one each for all specs would go a long way towards making it more fun for all of us.
    The change made to how strong the "end" trait of the artifacs are was a step in the right direction though.

  6. #66
    No, cut it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by THE Bigzoman View Post
    Meant Wetback. That's what the guy from Home Depot called it anyway.
    ==================================
    If you say pls because it is shorter than please,
    I'll say no because it is shorter than yes.
    ==================================

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    More DPS means something where ever you are.
    While this is true, the few percentage points we're talking about here don't mean something significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It never feels good to be behind.
    False. For many people, it feels good to down raid bosses, regardless where you sit on the dps meters. Sure, for many people being at the top of the meters might feel even better, but the reality is that in any group, most dps players will not be at the top. Provided your contribution is still meaningful, a few % difference really shouldn't matter to any player with any reasonable level of emotional maturity. WoW PvE is all about team play. If you can't feel good when you're not the best in your team, you should probably find another game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    In any case, raiding is all that matter to me and the AP system is a really bad idea in my opinion.
    Nah, it's a great idea. It provides constant rewards to people who are playing the game the way it is meant to be played. I think if you dislike the system then you need to maybe re-evaluate the way you are choosing to play, because there is probably something you can change that will make the game a lot more fun for you.

    The AP system absolutely is there is to reward people who choose to commit themselves to one spec instead of doing the FotM thing. As many have already said, Blizzard wants us to choose the class and spec we play according to what will be the most fun, not according to what is the top dps at this moment in time. And no, it doesn't make it impossible to switch and still stay competitive. It simply makes it more of a long term decision. With the way AK and cost per rank escalate, anyone switching where they spend their AP will catch up in a matter of 5-6 weeks. What it does mean though is you aren't going to be able to switch constantly.

  8. #68
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Heallygood View Post
    That's just a L2P issue though. Just because YOU can't play a spec properly doesn't mean the others are better.
    But that's exactly my point. If I cannot play a spec to the level of a sim, it will not be better for me to switch if the difference is minimal. I don't at all deny that some specs are better than others, in theory. But reality is, it's down to how the individual player performs.

    And it's still not Blizzard forcing us to switch, it's us.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    While this is true, the few percentage points we're talking about here don't mean something significant.



    False. For many people, it feels good to down raid bosses, regardless where you sit on the dps meters. Sure, for many people being at the top of the meters might feel even better, but the reality is that in any group, most dps players will not be at the top. Provided your contribution is still meaningful, a few % difference really shouldn't matter to any player with any reasonable level of emotional maturity. WoW PvE is all about team play. If you can't feel good when you're not the best in your team, you should probably find another game.



    Nah, it's a great idea. It provides constant rewards to people who are playing the game the way it is meant to be played. I think if you dislike the system then you need to maybe re-evaluate the way you are choosing to play, because there is probably something you can change that will make the game a lot more fun for you.

    The AP system absolutely is there is to reward people who choose to commit themselves to one spec instead of doing the FotM thing. As many have already said, Blizzard wants us to choose the class and spec we play according to what will be the most fun, not according to what is the top dps at this moment in time. And no, it doesn't make it impossible to switch and still stay competitive. It simply makes it more of a long term decision. With the way AK and cost per rank escalate, anyone switching where they spend their AP will catch up in a matter of 5-6 weeks. What it does mean though is you aren't going to be able to switch constantly.
    No, I do not need to re-evaluate how I playe the game. This is how I've played the game for years and it has never been an issue befor.
    It is a system to make sure that everything takes longer for no reason and no gain. At least not for the players.

    Blizzard is unable to balance their game well enough that you can just stick to one spec. Now, people are being benched if they happened to pick the wrong spec or are unwilling to put in the time it takes to max whatever new spec is at the top. Despite the fact that Blizzard promised that if one spec was ahead they would never nerf it or buff another spec to take its place as number one. Then again, Blizzard promised a lot of things in Legion that turned out to be pure lies.

    It might be how Blizzard wants the game to be played these days but it was not the original intent and it is not the game I fell in love with 13 years ago.
    I thought WoD was going to be the worst we would ever get when it came to expantions. I was wrong.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No, I do not need to re-evaluate how I playe the game. This is how I've played the game for years and it has never been an issue befor.
    Well it's your choice. It's totally your right to choose to be stubborn and hard headed and then blame the game for your lack of fun. In the end though, it's only you that loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It is a system to make sure that everything takes longer for no reason and no gain. At least not for the players.
    As I already explained, the reason is pretty obvious: Constantly changing specs to be FotM is the enemy of fun for just about everyone. Most people do it not because they enjoy it, but because they're so fixated on trying to be a the top of the dps list that they allow it to dictate the way they play the game and as a result end up not enjoying the game. The beauty of AP is that it gives people an incentive to stick with their spec even when it's not at the top because you have a vested interest in that spec.

    Yes I get it, this runs contrary to the way you've been playing for years and you refuse to adapt and try seeing what it's like to stick with one spec. And hey, maybe you are among the small minority of players who hate sticking with only spec which means maybe this system doesn't work for you. But that doesn't mean that it is objectively worse, or senseless, because for a great many players it's awesome to be able to play the spec we want to play without feeling this retarded pressure to keep chopping and changing based on the flavour of the week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Blizzard is unable to balance their game well enough that you can just stick to one spec.
    I disagree. Almost every spec is viable. The differences between them is small, and often exaggerated because when 1 spec is ahead by even only 1-2%, all the top players switch to it, so in reality it becomes skill which accounts for the actual measured difference. The only time there is ever a requirement to take the "best" spec is for a tiny fraction of the playerbase at the most competitive extreme. And even then, because everyone in that group is doing the same thing, it's not really a disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Now, people are being benched if they happened to pick the wrong spec or are unwilling to put in the time it takes to max whatever new spec is at the top.
    You say this like it's something new that only started happening with the introduction of AP. Fact is that top guilds have always found reasons to bench people who have invested time and effort into the "wrong" spec or class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Despite the fact that Blizzard promised that if one spec was ahead they would never nerf it or buff another spec to take its place as number one. Then again, Blizzard promised a lot of things in Legion that turned out to be pure lies.
    I recall no such promises being made and I do try to keep up to day with all the blue posts. Maybe you can point me to where they said this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It might be how Blizzard wants the game to be played these days but it was not the original intent and it is not the game I fell in love with 13 years ago.
    I find it difficult to believe that Blizzard ever wanted or intended people to choose their class based on the FotM. They have, for years, been talking about their desire to "bring the player, not the class", meaning that their intention is players should be able to choose the class they like, not the class they feel forced to use because of how the balance turned out. Unfortunately, human nature is that some players will sabotage their own fun in a futile attempt to cheese the system. Just because they have always found a way to do so doesn't in any way mean that was the game designers intent
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2017-04-21 at 02:46 PM.

  11. #71
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    If they do, this is a terrible way of doing it. It takes too long to get an "alt-spec" raid worthy, let alone getting an alt-class raid worthy (though that can entirely depend on legedary rng.)

    Frankly, I've never felt the need to go Frost from Fire. I've never felt that I was killing things too slowly or was doing too little dps in the content I do, though I can understand if there is a huge difference in single target DPS (though currently frost barely out preforms fire in ST unless you have great legendaries for both and fire cleave/AoE is just simply better.)

    The whole legendary system in general makes the idea of playing my alt specs a headache, even with 2 multi-spec oranges.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
    Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
    Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
    If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.

  12. #72
    Honestly unless you're on the cutting edge the spec you play doesn't matter all that much. Just play what you enjoy.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    My thoughts are, play what you enjoy. you will always do less DPS in a spec you don't enjoy.
    Well this is exactly why it's a problem. Some specs are just not enjoyable and sticking to your favorite spec and underperforming isnt that great either.

    I don't think Blizzard is doing it intentionally, it's just that it's probably impossible to balance them, considering some specs inherently scale better with gear. I just think they've accepted this and just overbuff the weak specs every now and then to give them their time in the spotlight.

  14. #74
    Scarab Lord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherise View Post
    Well this is exactly why it's a problem. Some specs are just not enjoyable and sticking to your favorite spec and underperforming isnt that great either.

    I don't think Blizzard is doing it intentionally, it's just that it's probably impossible to balance them, considering some specs inherently scale better with gear. I just think they've accepted this and just overbuff the weak specs every now and then to give them their time in the spotlight.
    Then you either need to be doing content where your "underpreformance" is no longer that, or you need to fully embrace and accept the fact that you, yourself are making the willing choice to swap specs to your alt purely out of need for progression (whether or not that realization comes from you or your guild). There are 4 raid difficulties in the game, use them, but don't complain when you "have" to do something to complete the hardest difficulty.

    That's the fucking point of mythic.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
    Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
    Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
    If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Well it's your choice. It's totally your right to choose to be stubborn and hard headed and then blame the game for your lack of fun. In the end though, it's only you that loses.



    As I already explained, the reason is pretty obvious: Constantly changing specs to be FotM is the enemy of fun for just about everyone. Most people do it not because they enjoy it, but because they're so fixated on trying to be a the top of the dps list that they allow it to dictate the way they play the game and as a result end up not enjoying the game. The beauty of AP is that it gives people an incentive to stick with their spec even when it's not at the top because you have a vested interest in that spec.

    Yes I get it, this runs contrary to the way you've been playing for years and you refuse to adapt and try seeing what it's like to stick with one spec. And hey, maybe you are among the small minority of players who hate sticking with only spec which means maybe this system doesn't work for you. But that doesn't mean that it is objectively worse, or senseless, because for a great many players it's awesome to be able to play the spec we want to play without feeling this retarded pressure to keep chopping and changing based on the flavour of the week.



    I disagree. Almost every spec is viable. The differences between them is small, and often exaggerated because when 1 spec is ahead by even only 1-2%, all the top players switch to it, so in reality it becomes skill which accounts for the actual measured difference. The only time there is ever a requirement to take the "best" spec is for a tiny fraction of the playerbase at the most competitive extreme. And even then, because everyone in that group is doing the same thing, it's not really a disadvantage.



    You say this like it's something new that only started happening with the introduction of AP. Fact is that top guilds have always found reasons to bench people who have invested time and effort into the "wrong" spec or class.



    I recall no such promises being made and I do try to keep up to day with all the blue posts. Maybe you can point me to where they said this?



    I find it difficult to believe that Blizzard ever wanted or intended people to choose their class based on the FotM. They have, for years, been talking about their desire to "bring the player, not the class", meaning that their intention is players should be able to choose the class they like, not the class they feel forced to use because of how the balance turned out. Unfortunately, human nature is that some players will sabotage their own fun in a futile attempt to cheese the system. Just because they have always found a way to do so doesn't in any way mean that was the game designers intent
    Well, you just proved you're absolutely clueless. No, not all classes are viable and yes Ion stated specifically that they would never nerf the number one spec to where it's below the others.
    If you want to look it up, it's in on of the Q&As that came befor Legion came out. Not going to rewatch them all for you.

    And no, I can't just change how I play and make the game good in some way. What kind of ridiculous logic is this?
    Thats like saying: If you don't like fish you could just eat it slower and it'll taste good.

    If you want to play white knight, you're more than welcome to but it's not going to make Legion better in any way.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Well, you just proved you're absolutely clueless.
    Yeah, clueless me, bringing logic and reason to a rant!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No, not all classes are viable
    Well, in all fairness, I did say almost all classes...


    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    and yes Ion stated specifically that they would never nerf the number one spec to where it's below the others. If you want to look it up, it's in on of the Q&As that came befor Legion came out.
    Pretty sure this just ain't true. It's far more likely you've just misremembered or misconstrued something before you understood the context properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    And no, I can't just change how I play and make the game good in some way. What kind of ridiculous logic is this?
    Logic 101. If a bunch of other people are playing the game in a different way to you, and they're all having fun and you're not, odds are you're doing something wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Thats like saying: If you don't like fish you could just eat it slower and it'll taste good.
    No, it's more like saying if you don't like your fish the way you cooked it, but I like my fish the way I cooked it, maybe you should look at my recipe before blaming the fish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    If you want to play white knight, you're more than welcome to but it's not going to make Legion better in any way.
    Such a weak ad hominem. If that's the best you can conclude with, it says a lot about the quality of your argument.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yeah, clueless me, bringing logic and reason to a rant!



    Well, in all fairness, I did say almost all classes...




    Pretty sure this just ain't true. It's far more likely you've just misremembered or misconstrued something before you understood the context properly



    Logic 101. If a bunch of other people are playing the game in a different way to you, and they're all having fun and you're not, odds are you're doing something wrong.



    No, it's more like saying if you don't like your fish the way you cooked it, but I like my fish the way I cooked it, maybe you should look at my recipe before blaming the fish.




    Such a weak ad hominem. If that's the best you can conclude with, it says a lot about the quality of your argument.
    Ignore facts and cry all you like. It does not change a thing.

  18. #78
    honestly find a group that matches your mindset to play with, if you are pushing world/realm first then yes a difference of even 1% is an issue, but if you are just raiding for fun or even progression but not chasing "first" play what you enjoy. I'm happy i found a group that clears HC and some mythic with a like attitude in that if we need X amount of DPS we don't care what spec or buffs etc long as you do it. Granted i'm a tank but its still nice.
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by gushDH View Post
    If you look at how the specs perform throughout Legion so far, you can see that there isn't a single class where the differences between specs were at least somewhat consistent. The problem is not that one spec is performing slightly better after changes, it is that it performs way better:

    Mage: Fire was god at start, but now it's horrible, so mages are pretty much forced to change to frost.

    Hunter: MM was the go-to, now it looks like BM is stronger.

    Warrior: Arms at start, Fury now.

    Death Knight: Unholy then Frost.

    Warlock: Demo/Destro at start, Affliction now, and it seems like it will go back to Destro if nothing changes until 7.2.5 launch.

    Rogue: I am not 100% sure about rogues, but I think at start Outlaw was the best, and now it's Assassination.

    It's needless to say that someone should play what they want and like, but it's normal for someone to want and like to perform the best they can. So if someone wants to do that, they will have to switch specs, no matter their preference.

    What are your thoughts?
    Blizzard is not holding a gun to your head to change specs. As said earlier play what you enjoy.

  20. #80
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mofn View Post
    Herpie man, please stop, youre embarassing yourself. I play BoS build, and our actual rotation after popping CDs (which dont count towards the rotation btw) is;
    - Remorseless every 20 seconds
    - Oblit/Howling
    - You pop Sindra Fury after a few seconds to let your Razor stacks get to 5.
    - Oblit/Howling
    - You pop HRW once you see you cant sustain BoS any more.
    - Oblit/Howling
    and
    - Oblit/Howling/FS once BoS ends.

    Pillar, BoS, Sindra Fury, HRW do not count towards a "rotation", so overall we play with 3 buttons more or less.

    Unholy uses 4 buttons more or less if we discount the CDs (which includes SR), however they need be attentive regarding their Wound amount, and adjust Rune spending accordingly. This gets harder if you have the Bracers lego.
    And no matter what you say to respond to this, looking after this extra "resource" does make UH noticeably more intricate than frost.

    Pet micro is basically non-existent, though sometimes you would like to move him out of certain AOEs.
    pet mangeaement can be thing if you dont pick sludge belcher and instead use normal ghoulwhen transformed normal is 180° cleave and belcher 360° cleave gasscloud but other that it doesnt really
    Last edited by mmocc56b999c4f; 2017-04-21 at 04:05 PM.

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